Water Cooling

[Gina]

This has been mentioned in threads about cooling DSLRs to remove the heat generated by Peltier coolers plus that extracted from the camera.

Peltier TECs are very inefficient and generate a lot more heat themselves than they remove so the resultant heat produced needs a lot of getting rid of. I've been playing with the usual CPU coolers with finned heatsink and fan but don't like the weight they add. I also wonder about vibration from a fan - though that might be alright if the fan is hung on rubber bands.

So I've been looking at the possibility of using water cooling. Water cooling systems for CPUs are available but I wonder about the length of the hoses. The distance from CPU to case is not much compared with from camera to mount/pier.

Has anyone here any experience of water cooling of electronic equipment?

I was wondering about the possibility of a home made water cooling system. Parts needed are heat exchanger for Peltier hot side, heat exchanger plus fan to get rid of the heat, a pump for circulation and tubing to connect it all together.

The ready made units are generally sealed so extending the hoses would be a problem. A kit of individual components is a lot more expensive.

I'd be glad of your thoughts on the matter

[Parallax]

Many moons ago, 2001 give or take, there was a chap in the States that went this route. Dave Allmon was his name. He was the pioneer of long exposure webcam astrophotography. One night, whilst imaging, he fell asleep (like you do) and when he awoke it had all gone horribly wrong! IIRC one of the hoses had detached itself. Needless to say, the webcam was toast.

Just a word of caution.

Steve

[Gina]

Many moons ago, 2001 give or take, there was a chap in the States that went this route. Dave Almon (sp?) was his name. He was the pioneer of long exposure webcam astrophotography. One night, whilst imaging, he fell asleep (like you do) and when he awoke it had all gone horribly wrong! IIRC one of the hoses had detached itself. Needless to say, the webcam was toast.

Just a word of caution.

Steve

Thanks for your reply I intend to have temperature sensors for various places including hot side of Peltier, with constant monitoring so any problem and it gets shut down.

[barkis]

I would have thought that if the water cooling option was viable, ie, the ends justifying the means, there would be marketable kits out there already. Of course I've no Idea if there are or not.

I'm not trying to throw water on your potential project,

(and forgive me, that pun is not an intended one).

How much gain in Image improvement can be expected, and is it justifiable regarding the likely cost of the system?

What about liquid Nitrogen as a cooling agent, although I am aware of the dangers associated with that method, and I have not a clue how it could be introduced into the required areas to be effective.

I hope you can make progress Gina, but it doesn't look too easy.

I'm happy for you to prove me wrong though.

Ron.

[RAC]

I water cool the hot side of my peltier. I pump water throught it that is cooled down by milk bottles filled of water that i freeze. I have a chilly bin with a small ratiator in it. I half fill it with water and put the frozen milk bottles in it.

http://stargazerslounge.com/discussions-cameras/164889-my-take-peltier-cooler-box.html

[redondo]

I have used water cooling in several of my computers over the years and is relativley easy to use and set up.There is a great selection of cooling blocks , pumps radiators ,fans and tubing to choose from and all can be picked up quite cheeply.The only problem i envisage with using a pelt cooled water sytem is condensation that will form on all exposed surfaces where the water will cool .Water is ten times more efficient at removing heat than air so a system without pelt cooling will only ever get down to ambient temps. Try looking for watercooling in places such as ebuyer ,aria,scan and overclockers to name a few computer component suppliers online........

Carl.

[Gina]

I would have thought that if the water cooling option was viable, ie, the ends justifying the means, there would be marketable kits out there already. Of course I've no Idea if there are or not.

I'm not trying to throw water on your potential project,

(and forgive me, that pun is not an intended one).

How much gain in Image improvement can be expected, and is it justifiable regarding the likely cost of the system?

What about liquid Nitrogen as a cooling agent, although I am aware of the dangers associated with that method, and I have not a clue how it could be introduced into the required areas to be effective.

I hope you can make progress Gina, but it doesn't look too easy.

I'm happy for you to prove me wrong though.

Ron.

It has been done for CPU cooling in computers. eBay and Amazon stock them eg.

Corsair CW-9060001-WW Hydro Series H40 Hydro CPU Cooler: Amazon.co.uk: Computers & Accessories

There a kit on eBay that would probably be suitable but it's more than I want to pay :- Magicool DIY Watercooling Kit 775/ 1156/ 1366/ AM2/ AM3 | eBay

[JamesF]

http://stargazerslounge.com/discussions-cameras/164889-my-take-peltier-cooler-box.html

You are completely bonkers. And I mean that in the nicest possible way

James

[Earl]

There is not really much point in water cooling unless in very warm places.

If vibration is a concern use a large slow fan this will still shift alot of air, be quieter and will cool fine, a large Passive style heatsink and a large Fan will provide good cooling.

[Gina]

I water cool the hot side of my peltier. I pump water throught it that is cooled down by milk bottles filled of water that i freeze. I have a chilly bin with a small ratiator in it. I half fill it with water and put the frozen milk bottles in it.

http://stargazerslounge.com/discussions-cameras/164889-my-take-peltier-cooler-box.html

Thank you Interesting thread - I vaguely remember reading it before

[Gina]

I have used water cooling in several of my computers over the years and is relativley easy to use and set up.There is a great selection of cooling blocks , pumps radiators ,fans and tubing to choose from and all can be picked up quite cheeply.The only problem i envisage with using a pelt cooled water sytem is condensation that will form on all exposed surfaces where the water will cool .Water is ten times more efficient at removing heat than air so a system without pelt cooling will only ever get down to ambient temps. Try looking for watercooling in places such as ebuyer ,aria,scan and overclockers to name a few computer component suppliers online........

Carl.

Thank you Particularly for the suggestion of sources Condensation forms on the exterior of the cold finger but I have seen no condensation on critical parts in the camera.

[Gina]

There is not really much point in water cooling unless in very warm places.

If vibration is a concern use a large slow fan this will still shift alot of air, be quieter and will cool fine, a large Passive style heatsink and a large Fan will provide good cooling.

Yes, I've been using that but the weight is an issue - adds a lot of unbalanced load to the scope and mount. A water cooled heat exchanger should weigh a lot less.

[Gina]

Been giving this more thought... I reckon I could make a hot side heat exchanger out of microbore copper pipe as used in central heating systems. This is available in sizes of 4mm upwards. A number of tubes side by side soldered to a copper plate and fed in parallel with manifolds at the ends to connect to single input and output pipes/hoses, should provide quite a good heat transfer.

[cs1cjc]

A recommended source for quiet fans and low vibration mountings is:

Quiet PC-Quiet PC Hardware-Quiet PC Components-Quiet PC Zalman Products

[redondo]

Gina it sounds like a lot of hard work and time when you can buy small radiators for probably as much as you can make one.Unless you have the parts just lying aroung.Worth a look online for pc watercooling.........

[iwatkins]

Hi Gina,

I would suggest you could make a system out of automotive parts quite easily but I don't think you'll be able to make an as efficient water block than a commercial one. If you bought a water block only the rest is easy. Well that assumes you can get one the right size.

Just a pump, radiator with a big fan and some hoses.

That way, on the cold side on the scope itself you would just have the water block and hoses. Fairly lightweight. And if you support the weight of the hoses and coolant along the OTA back to the pump and rad, even less weight on the focuser.

Cheers

Ian

[Gina]

Thanks everyone

The CPU water blocks I've found so far seem to be rather big and heavy. Some are designed to take away 200W of heat - far more than I need. As Ian said, the water block is the critical part, the rest is no problem.

Another thought I had was a spiral of 4mm microbore copper tube on a copper plate and 4mm bore plastic tubing. A low power aquarium water pump could be used for circulation.

[iwatkins]

Some of the other water blocks available, I.e. ones for Northbridge rather than main CPU are smaller and lighter, ally instead of copper, worth looking into those. Oh, you also have a PM

Cheers

Ian

[Reggie]

I have one of the corsair water cooling units in my current PC, they're great but I really worry about the weight of that unit + the radiator block that comes with it. Perhaps you should look at the xbox/ps3 watercooling solutions (they're small iirc), or take a look on www.overclockers.co.uk and see what you can build up with PC gear. The only real issues are weight and pipes popping off, to be fair though, it shouldn't break anything as long as the liquid doesn't short anything! Oh and if you use the right fluid, shorting shouldn't be an issue at all, I had another watercooling system on another PC, the cpublock split and leaked cooling fluid all over my graphics card, no idea when it happened, I only noticed there was something wrong because I could hear the air bubbles rattling through the system (I'd left it for a few days bubbling), checked the inside of the machine and there was a nice blue stain on the gfx card, PC still ran with reduced performance, obviously once I'd noticed the issue I replaced the broken block.

Ultimately though, I think watercooling will be an expensive exercise.

[Reggie]

Watercool HEATKILLER® MB-SET ASUS-P8P67 / Z68 LT Motherboard Waterblocks []

That's probably the smallest block I could find, there is a slightly cheaper version. It's almost something you might ask an engineer to make for you.

or one of these EK-VGA Supreme HF - Nickel Acetal []=

for £38.

[Gina]

I've measured up, including my filter wheel, and if I turn the camera slightly I can arrange that the water block (or heatsink/fan combo) will miss the filter wheel. Also been looking into the water blocks available and the Zalman CPU water block looks about the best.

Amazon is the cheapest source I've found :-

Zalman CPU Water Block with Corrosion Preventive anodizing: Amazon.co.uk: Computers & Accessories

154g in weight which is a little bit more than my 60mm sq. heatsink and fan @ 100g (rather underpowered cooling) but only half the 80mm combo which weighs nearly 300g and did give good cooling. Of course, there's the weight of the tubes and coolant to add. I'd have thought something like 4 or 6mm bore tubing would be sufficient. However, I've found elbows that connect 8mm bore x 11mm OD plastic tube with the same thread size as the Zalman block on eBay so think that will be the way to go.

[Zakalwe]

I'm always interested in your projects Gina.....very creative!

In this case, wouldn't it be cheaper and and a whole lot easier to buy a dedicated cooled CCD? I've seen 2nd hand QHY8L (APS sized sensor) on Astro B+S for £650.

[Gina]

I'm always interested in your projects Gina.....very creative!

Thank you

In this case, wouldn't it be cheaper and and a whole lot easier to buy a dedicated cooled CCD? I've seen 2nd hand QHY8L (APS sized sensor) on Astro B+S for £650.

A lot easier, certainly but not cheaper and I haven't got anywhere near that amount in the bank. It will take me a long time to save up that much, I'm afraid.

Anyway, I like a challenge

[Zakalwe]

Anyway, I like a challenge

I know what you mean.... I have regularly spent more (in terms of time and money) making something do a job that it wasn't originally designed for, compared to just going out and getting the "proper" item.

Sometimes the "doing" is better and more fun! :)

[Gina]

I have ordered some of the bits :-

1. Zalman CPU Water Block with Corrosion Preventive anodizing: Amazon.co.uk: Computers & Accessories
   
2. 8mm Clear Plastic Flexible PVC Hose Tube Aquarium Pond Washer Fuel Air | eBay
   
3. Bitspower watercool G1/4" Shiny Silver HighFlow Compression Angle Fitting 11/8mm | eBay
   
4. LOW POWER MULTI FUNCTION WATER PUMP - AQUARIUM / FISH TANK | eBay