These prices seem weird

[sirmetin]

Ok I was looking at the Celestron CPC 9.25 XLT available in the UK for about £1900 and I noticed there was a deluxe version out soon. No prices in the UK at the time so I looked at US prices just to get the differential. Here is where I find a strange pricing anomoly

I have converted all the prices to dollars for easy comparison and used the UK suggested retail prices as they are the only ones available for both scopes.

CPC XLT 925 UK list $3481 US price $2499

CPC Deluxe 925 UK list $6802 US price $3199

So in the US the upgrade costs $700 and in the UK $3321

I am aware that we pay more over here with extra shipping costs VAT etc but all those should scale in proportion to the price difference as they are generally a percentage increase.

This is not the case as we would therefore expect the premium over the US price stated as a % to be similar but in fact for the XLT we have a 40% premium for the Deluxe we are looking at a 112% premium?

[Space Bat]

couple of UK sellers have this listed at 4.1K

so a little cheaper

[sirmetin]

Yup that's $6642 but if I am using real prices then the XLT is available at £1885 which is $3053 so the difference is actually worse at +$3589.

Premiums UK vs US become 22% for the XLT and 107% for the Deluxe. Which is actually a much bigger markup difference.

[BlueAstra]

Do your US listed prices include sales tax, typically about 10% ?

[sirmetin]

The site lists an 8% sales tax for Oaklahoma but nothing for any other state, some taxes are applied to California but not for these scopes. Similar prices at a number of US dealers.

It is not the fact that we pay more that bothers me so much the 20% premium is to be expected with higher taxes and shipping, but a 100% premium is just !!!!!!

[derekm]

And the sad thing is, that some Brits will pay the extortionate price.

QED The importers/retailers will continue charging.

How much do the German shops charge? Shop around.

[onlyme]

on top of the delivery charges, importing telescopes and binoculars from outside the EU would entail a VAT charge at 20% plus an import duty of %4.2, also the carrier will have a fixed clearance charge (usually under a tenner).

at the current import and VAT duty rates most purchases would cost around 25% above the purchase price.

for most if not all items, one would still be better off by far buying from abroad after factoring in the above charges.

why should importers charge twice what it costs to retail purchase the same item from overseas is beyond me, especially if one takes into account the fact that bulk shipping costs far less than shipping individual items.

EU purchases entail no charges, since the purchaser pays the local VAT at source, if you are lucky enough to find a supplier in Luxembourg, then all you pay is 15% VAT:)

[derekm]

why should importers charge twice what it costs to retail purchase the same item from overseas is beyond me, especially if one takes into account the fact that bulk shipping costs far less than shipping individual items.

Because as a nation we are daft enough to pay it and so send the message to the importers/retailers that we are bent over and want more of it. Simples!

I've had a scope from Germany and eyepieces from the States. How many take the trouble to look further than Astronomy Now?

There lies the answer.

In the thread on Revelation scopes, someone quoted to the effect that "of course a cheap Chinese scope cannot be of the quality advertised" and "how it was preferable to buy a much more expensive and therefore better" UK made article.

As long as urban myths and hearsay rule over actual research, the situation will continue unchanged.

[sirmetin]

It is true that the best way to stop such practices is to stop buying them, if no one buys at inflated prices then the prices always come down. So check the details elsewhere before you lay out money over here. Not all the pricing is unreasonable.

[dmahon]

Although we all expect a markup in the UK compared to US (pre-tax) prices, due to:

1) VAT

2) import duty

3) Better customer protection (more chance of returns for the seller)

it still hasn't answered the original poster's question:

Why is scope A marked up at 20% but scope B is marked up at 100%, when both are from the same manufacturer.

[rabbithutch]

My guess is that the US is not burdened (yet) with as much government as the UK has chosen for itself, thus we don't pay as much for product. I know nothing of how household incomes compare in the two nations; so can't offer a meaningful comment thereon. Your VAT seems excessively high. Is that your only national tax or do you also pay an income tax as we do?

No wishes to make this political, just trying to understand - as is the OP - how things can be so different in societies that share so many similarities.

[blackparticle]

Is that your only national tax or do you also pay an income tax as we do?

Haha..

Income Tax = 20% - 50% (After a pitiful basic tax-free allowance)

Employees National Insurance (Health Tax) = 12%

Employers National Insurance (More Health Tax) = 13.8%

VAT (Sales Tax) = 20%

Then we have additional taxes on fuel, energy, property purchases, driving on the roads, living in your property, insurance premiums and even death (Inheritance Tax)

Back in the old days I think it used to be called slavery.

[onlyme]

Back in the old days I think it used to be called slavery.

have they changed the name then?!?!

something a little more politically correct, like a subject? oh sorry, citizen now isn't it?

[Doc]

And on top of all that buying from the states you might void any warrenty that comes with the scope.

[pete_l]

Because as a nation we are daft enough to pay it and so send the message to the importers/retailers that we are bent over and want more of it. Simples!

I would venture to suggest that there's only a single distributor/importer for the UK. They are "the channel" through which all sales go and only they can supply the retailers.

In the US there will be many distributors and many retailers - each able and willing to ship to anyone in the US. As a consequence there is flexibility and competition on price AND service. Whereas in the UK there is no possibility that retailers would be allowed (by the arrangement between the distro and the manufacturer) to cut prices too far - maybe a token tenner, if we're lucky.

What happens then is that few, if anyone, buys the product - so the americans assume there's nothing in the way of a market in "yurp" and don't offer any bulk discounts, which keeps the price high, too.

Oddly, in the message to manufacturers thread, very few people seem to be concerned about the price of kit. From that you can deduce either that they are happy to pay the asking price, or reconciled to the fact there's nothing they can do about it.

[rabbithutch]

Haha..

Income Tax = 20% - 50% (After a pitiful basic tax-free allowance)

Employees National Insurance (Health Tax) = 12%

Employers National Insurance (More Health Tax) = 13.8%

VAT (Sales Tax) = 20%

Then we have additional taxes on fuel, energy, property purchases, driving on the roads, living in your property, insurance premiums and even death (Inheritance Tax)

Back in the old days I think it used to be called slavery.

There goes any thought of me emigrating to the UK!

[derekm]

I would venture to suggest that there's only a single distributor/importer for the UK. They are "the channel" through which all sales go and only they can supply the retailers.

In the US there will be many distributors and many retailers - each able and willing to ship to anyone in the US. As a consequence there is flexibility and competition on price AND service. Whereas in the UK there is no possibility that retailers would be allowed (by the arrangement between the distro and the manufacturer) to cut prices too far - maybe a token tenner, if we're lucky.

What happens then is that few, if anyone, buys the product - so the americans assume there's nothing in the way of a market in "yurp" and don't offer any bulk discounts, which keeps the price high, too.

Oddly, in the message to manufacturers thread, very few people seem to be concerned about the price of kit. From that you can deduce either that they are happy to pay the asking price, or reconciled to the fact there's nothing they can do about it.

I can't quite comprehend why the attitude of American suppliers should affect the prices of mainly Chinese manufactured goods in Europe.

Your paragraph noting the lack of concern for pricing by customers would appear to sum things up precisely though.

"The selling price of any article, from peanuts to power stations, is a little less than what you can't sell it for." Quote from General Sales Manager AEI Rugby, September 1960.

[derekm]

There goes any thought of me emigrating to the UK!

Why in God's good name would you want to emigrate from Texas to the UK??

Europe maybe, but UK................?

[rabbithutch]

Why in God's good name would you want to emigrate from Texas to the UK??

Europe maybe, but UK................?

'Twas said in jest in reaction to the taxes enumerated. If I were to migrate again, it would be to British Columbia.

[pete_l]

I can't quite comprehend why the attitude of American suppliers should affect the prices of mainly Chinese manufactured goods in Europe.

The original piece was about the relative price of celestron kit. That's an american company which trades as I described. It regards america as its "home" market.

The main point however is that the telescope manufacturers are allowed to operate their various european operations as a series of monopolies - and price their products accordingly. In the USA there are fewer restrictions on retailers (i.e. who they can sell to) and the consequential competition is a major factor in reducing prices.

[a knock-on effect of the increased competition/lower prices is greater sales volume, which creates a virtuous circle of increased sales volume that attracts volume discounts: thus lowering prices more.]

[rabbithutch]

The theory is correct, Pete, but the practice is certainly changing.

There are fewer and fewer independent retailers in the US. Virtually all are outlets of a regional or nationwide chain. Big box stores prevail where generic products are sold and chain stores prevail where specialty merchandise warrants a foot print. Wal*Mart has assumed a huge percentage of the retail groceries market taking share from long-standing chains. Such is the power of their purchasing organization and distribution system.

Some of us worry what happens when the fewer number of sellers begin to exploit their hegemony. Local mom and pop stores exist almost nowhere outside the restaurant business and they are fast disappearing.

[FLO]

... in the UK there is no possibility that retailers would be allowed (by the arrangement between the distro and the manufacturer) to cut prices too far - maybe a token tenner, if we're lucky.

If what you say were true it would probably be illegal! The real reason you see little variation in retail prices here in the UK is because retailers have very little margin with which to discount! Have you not noticed how many UK astro dealers are folding or downsizing? FLO has a bricks-and-mortar unit with staff but many today are one-man bands working from a home or garage.

There are a number of valid reasons why Celestron products sometimes cost more over here than in the US. Tax, Duty and economies of scale aside (the US customer base is 5x larger than ours) the primary one is that Celestron have appointed a UK importer/distributor who must cover the costs of running a warehouse, a service centre, appoint and maintain a dealer network and advertise the products. For Celestron to make their telescopes available here for less we would almost certainly have to forgo the benefits of a local distribution and service centre.

Interestingly this thread and other similar comments posted here on SGL coincide with the appearance of an Ebay store offering what I presume are unofficially imported telescopes... The prices are cheaper but the store's claim that the telecsopes include a manufacturers UK warranty is false (according to Celestron's official importer) and their statemant 'No Returns unless you feel the item is not as described' is not in accordance with the Distance Selling Regulations.

Anyhow, the US/UK price difference is not always as large as this thread suggests. I wouldn't be surprised to find Celestron are currently running some kind of promo in the US which isn't available over here. (Earlier this year discounts were available here so there were opportunities to save a significant amount on the more expensive models). Most of the time, when taxes, duty, shipping and currency exchange rates are factored in the prices are actually quite close.

If you do notice a significant price difference I suggest you contact the manufacturer or appointed importer/distributer.

HTH

Steve

[rabbithutch]

Well said, Steve!

[pete_l]

There are a number of valid reasons why Celestron products sometimes cost more over here than in the US. Tax, Duty and economies of scale aside (the US customer base is 5x larger than ours) the primary one is that Celestron have appointed a UK importer/distributor who must cover the costs of running a warehouse, a service centre, appoint and maintain a dealer network and advertise the products. For Celestron to make their telescopes available here for less we would almost certainly have to forgo the benefits of a local distribution and service centre.

I understand your position Steve. However, don't forget that the distribution, marketing and support infrastructure will exist for the american operation (a country 10x the size of the UK), too. And the costs of that are absorbed into the prices paid over there, that we see in the retail prices advertised. So to say the UK operation would have those in addition, is double-counting.

You could even argue that with 500 million people in the Eu-zone, our prices should be lower than in the US, since our market is larger

When I was buying my first telescope (a Celestron U2K) I was so shocked by the predatory pricing in the UK that I seriously considered flying to NY, buying one for cash and freighting it back. It was marginally cheaper: 3k USD compared to £3K+ here ( == $5k at the time). Even taking into account the duty, VAT and $330 airfreight - and I'd have got a "free" weekend in NY, flights and hotel bills paid, too!

The only reason I didn't do it was that I was working as a software contractor and it was coming up to Y2K so I was banned from taking time off.

[derekm]

The original piece was about the relative price of celestron kit. That's an american company which trades as I described. It regards america as its "home" market.

The main point however is that the telescope manufacturers are allowed to operate their various european operations as a series of monopolies - and price their products accordingly. In the USA there are fewer restrictions on retailers (i.e. who they can sell to) and the consequential competition is a major factor in reducing prices.

[a knock-on effect of the increased competition/lower prices is greater sales volume, which creates a virtuous circle of increased sales volume that attracts volume discounts: thus lowering prices more.]

The original post was not about relative US/UK prices per se, but about the apparently vast discrepancy between the premiums paid for the de luxe version of the equipment in question.

QUOTE

"CPC XLT 925 UK list $3481 US price $2499

CPC Deluxe 925 UK list $6802 US price $3199

So in the US the upgrade costs $700 and in the UK $3321 "

Now it is possible that this price has been imposed by Celestron, but I think there is more chance it is one of the unwelcome quirks of the UK market.