These prices seem weird

[dmahon]

I must admit that I am likely to buy my Takahashi FSQ-106 in the US for $4800, as they are £4800 over here. VAT and import duty doesn't cover the difference.

[FLO]

Pete_L, you cannot include the populations of Germany, France, Spain, etc with the UK's. I understand the theory but in practice it simply doesn't work like that.

It might surprise you to know UK retailers often pay more more than US dealers even when the company is British and the product is designed and manufactured here in the UK because US dealers have a 5x larger customer base so submit 5x larger orders. I find that seriously annoying! Also, FLO directly imports and promotes some American products. The American companies we have chosen are great (some British companies could learn a thing or two from them) but others we have approached have a pricing structure that would prevent us offering the products at a comparable price. You would be surprised at the brands we have turned down for this reason.

Threads like these can be fun, I have seen several over the years and posted from both sides of the fence but these days the comments made are often based on the situation as it was ten years ago when we really were being ripped off in the UK. The internet, media campaigns and forums have largely changed that so today it is less of an issue. (I don't know about the new Celestron telescopes, we'll assess them and their prices when they become available).

Anyhow, I have probably already said too much so will bow out and leave it to others

Steve

[syd_malicious]

This has developed into another UK - US price discussion but that is still a valid discussion.

My interpretation is somewhat between the 2 points here (FLO and the others). It seems that

US

• Larger consumer base
  
• Higher expectations of customers
  
• Different after sales - correct me if wrong but in the US there is a higher likelyhood of being told to deal directly with the manufacturer in the event of an issue
  
• most big manufacturesrs based here and don't seem to know there is a whole world beyond North America
  

UK/Europe

• Usually a single importer (certainly for Planewave, Celestron, Meade)
  
• Higher taxes
  
• Perceived difficulty in shipping things from the US
  

I can understand a manufacturer only dealing with one company (Hinds for Celestron and Telescope House for Meade) as it means that any issues can be attemopted to be rectified by a trusted single place to avoid shipping back to the US. They really couldn't be bothered by various companies such as FLO etc directly contacting them with warranty repairs etc. It is easier to palm of warranty support to the importer.

However this does mean there is essentially a monopoly in the UK with the importer holding retailers to ransom over the price. To argue that this is the reason for the high price doesn't explain why there is such little variation in prices. If you look at most of the UK suppliers the prices are virtually the same for the big companies; lack of margin does not explain this.

Overall I think we have what amounts to a cosy little cartel that is instigated by a few big US companies and in general we have no option but to put up or go grey import and face "no warranty" issues. Afterall in a truly free market we could buy from the US - it would just mean we would have to ship back there for warranty issues but this option is denied to us.

The situation is completely different for smaller US companies and I have dealt directly with the following Optec, Bob's knobs, Kendrick, Software Bisque - all with excellent personalised responses that have been a pleasure to deal with. The issue with these has been the ridiculous charges by the highway robbers that are the Royal Mail and customs.

Paul

[Star Gazer]

I must admit that I am likely to buy my Takahashi FSQ-106 in the US for $4800, as they are £4800 over here. VAT and import duty doesn't cover the difference.

Hi dmahon,

So what will you be saving?

4800 USD = 3030 GBP (exch rate = 0.63136)

3030 x 20% (VAT) = 606 GBP

3030 x 5% (duty) = 151 GBP

Ship + Insurance = 300 GBP

Importers Fee = 20 GBP

3030+606+151+300+20= 4107 GBP

I doubt you would get the exchange rate, but if my maths are correct you should save at least 500 GBP. Also make sure you are comparing like for like, often the US spec equipment is slightly different eg the Tak doesn't have a finder in the US but does include one in the UK.

Shoot me down if you think I am wrong.

[sirmetin]

Firstly let me say I have no axe to grind with retailers in the UK or with the importer for that matter. Most of these are enthusiasts and they never went into astronomy retail as a get rich quick campaign. I doubt very much that they make more than a basic survival profit margin from most of their customers. I believe that in this case it is the manufacturer that is wanting to make additional profit from early implementers overseas.

All companies have to operate at a profit to survive each of them needs to add on their operating margin + a buffer profit against bad times + a profit to give a sensible return on investment. Because for the UK there is an additional step of an importer there will always be added cost. With shipping costs and additional local taxes prices are higher, but they are higher by a % not a set amount. This does not therefore go any way towards explaining the huge difference I pointed out at the start of this thread.

The additional cost in the UK is greater than all of the following together :-Manufacturing cost + QC + Marketing + wharehousing + manufacturer profit + shipping costs + retailer profit + storage costs + customer shipping costs + retailer operating margin.

I have been in touch with both the importer and the manufacturer but they have offered no sensible explanation as to why it costs more than double the US price over here where other items can get here for only a 20% increase.

[FLO]

Okay, I said I would bow out but I have just spoken with Celestron's UK importer who has shed some light on the situation

Apparently final assembly and quality control of the new Celestron EDGE HD models is being done at Celestron's unit in California, not China, so Celestron's UK importer/distributor cannot source them direct from China. My understanding is Celestron sometimes does this so product performance and returns can be more efficiently monitored and controlled from within their largest market - the US. It might be that, after they feel the products are successfully launched, they move production to their factories in China. If they do the price should drop here in the UK.

Please don't shoot the messenger...

Steve

[sirmetin]

Yes I had heard this reason which means they have an additional shipping to do, but the difference is still that between shipping to a US dealer and shipping to a UK distributor then on to a retailer. I could easily see this adding an extra $200 to $300 but not $3000+.

[FLO]

Yes, they did say you weren't impressed with their explanation.

[LeeB]

go for a holiday in the us and bring one back its cheaper.

[SteveL]

Is it possibly so that the US market can be told they are assembled in the USA (which is technically correct), as they dont appear to like buying "chinese stuff" which they consider to be inferior? Not the first time US manufacturers have done that (and not just astro related companies!)

[LeeB]

I feel sorry for FLO stuck in the middle , the time is coming when the forums like this will empower individuals in countries like the usa to ship to other forum members direct and avoid "what the market will stand pricing" this issue kept me out of astronomy for many years. Anyway I'm back now and i buy from uk (hence OO telescope) but also from us direct for many products the customs charges don't make up the difference.

[FLO]

Is it possibly so that the US market can be told they are assembled in the USA (which is technically correct), as they dont appear to like buying "chinese stuff" which they consider to be inferior? Not the first time US manufacturers have done that (and not just astro related companies!)

Perhaps. US marketing is different to that used over here. We tend to buy 'products' whereas in the US they buy 'personalities'. Also, Americans are much more patriotic than us Brits (something I admire) so their marketing draws a veil over the fact almost everything is sourced from Taiwan, China and Japan and focuses instead on whichever American personality or company is behind the brand.

I think in this instance though it probably is simply that it is easier for them to monitor a product launch from within the US, which is where most of their customers are.

I feel sorry for FLO stuck in the middle

Oh don't worry about us, I think people know it isn't UK astro dealers profiteering so I shan't lose any sleep

[LeeB]

I used to work for a us tool company and one product was us shipped and china manifactured , the retail cost in the uk was £35 the cost from us £15+ and when we went to china supply direct £1.54 !!!!???? US market based strongly on what a market can stand.

[sirmetin]

I will fight tooth and nail to support UK businesses especially the small independent companies. As I said earlier often these companies are run by people who really care about their customers and their products. Whatever the reason this sort of thing just makes it harder for them to run a business, global pricing needs to be equitable and rational in a modern internet age.

[LeeB]

fully agree but too many greedy people in the world.

[pete_l]

Is it possibly so that the US market can be told they are assembled in the USA (which is technically correct), as they dont appear to like buying "chinese stuff" which they consider to be inferior? Not the first time US manufacturers have done that (and not just astro related companies!)

Yes, that sounds like by far the most logical reason (also there might be lower import duties on optical parts, c.f. finished telescopes).

What would make me laugh is if the chinese started cloning those telescopes and selling them, themselves. There's no reason why not if they are already making all the parts. I'd buy one