A silly dream?

[rocketandroll]

Hi all

So... I have a silly dream (not sure MLK would have got quite such a good response to his speech with the word 'silly' in there, but bear with me)...

Having FINALLY got into astronomy after years of interest and found the last few months to be a pretty magical journey... I kind of feel this overwhelming urge to try and let other people in on what I feel I missed by NOT realising what you could see and do with modest equipment from your own back yard.

Specifically, I know that, had I been shown that with a tripod, a motor and a standard digital SLR I could take images of other galaxies or nebulae from my garden (that's perhaps a slight simplification, but not much) when I was a kid... it may well have changed the entire direction of my life. In the last few months since I've been doing this... whilst the personal 'wow' moments have been awesome, the greatest pleasure has come from sharing those things with other people who had no idea what they could see or achieve, for example showing a load of kids who happened to be playing near our observing site Saturn for the first time and hearing them gasp when they actually saw a recognisable pin sharp image of a planet they recognised with their own eyes.

I've recently managed to get access, for the odd spot of astronomy, to a local site, just round the corner from me, that is owned by a 'celebrity' who has an interest in science (albeit not space science...yet) and who already does a lot of educational events through this site. They seem quite interested in what I've been up to and I feel there is scope to go beyond me just turning up there every now and then and using it for personal astronomy.

I had this idea... that it might be possible to blag a small area of land they aren't currently using and get a small permanent observatory built on it (a big shed, lets be realistic :-) and install an imaging rig and maybe a reasonable sized dob there and use it as a permanent local facility for school and colledge students to introduce them to astronomy.

Now, to be worthwhile, this is going to need a few things... most notably, a chunk of money to set up (probably £10K or so) and the regular time of local astronomers, myself included, to help run evening workshops.

I'm willing to give my time and I think enough local astronomers would be willing to help out to make it work.

Am I being a crazy dreamer to even think about trying to get something like this off the ground? Am I likely to face a massively uphill struggle trying to get sponsorship/donations to pay for such a facility in the current economic climate? (I certainly can't afford to pay for it) Are there any instances of astronomy manufacturers or suppliers offering equipment at cost or donating equipment to such causes?

Has anyone ever tried anything like this for their local community? Anyone have any suggestions or thoughts?

And yes... I am probably mad :-)

Ben

[John]

Perhaps this is a "supersized" version of your dream Ben:

The Astronomy Centre

Pete Drew (a member of SGL) founded this centre.

[Depraved]

A good place to start would be gaining permission for the land.

It all seem to hang on that one point. Equipment and peoples time shouldn't be that much of an issue over time, but if you haven't got the location then it all stops there.

[Telrad]

To quote Bob Dylan: I'll Let You Be In My Dreams, If I Can Be In Yours..

I think it's a splendid idea. But, you will need to:-

1. Find the right plot

2. Get a location

3. Sort out surveying

4. Apply for Planning Permission

5. Deal with legal issues ... including additional costs etc etc

[rocketandroll]

I probably should have mentioned.... the site in question is a farm with a massive number of buildings on it already. AFAIK, planning permision shouldn't be needed for an additional small shed on a site with 20+ agricultural buildings already on it...

Where I would propose the obsy go is currently a piece of wasteland used for storing old farm equipment, one corner of it is overgrown and unused, they certainly shouldn't have a problem with us using it for a 'worthy cause' if they benefit from it and the good publicity.

That all said, yes, we need to get permission before doing anything else.... but I was really after people's overall views on this kind of project and it's value rather than the technical details of what is required I guess.

Ben

[Rob Severn]

Concrete base and a wooden building of less than 20m2 on designated agricultural land, of no more than 3.5m in height counts as a temporary structure and doesn't need planning permission. Think what you could do with 20m2

Go for it, if you can get the backing of a few people with the same interests then all the better.

Best of luck, sounds like a great dream to me.

[Depraved]

I hope it all works out for you Rocket, please keep us posted. diary and pictures etc

[ronin]

I know that, had I been shown that with a tripod, a motor and a standard digital SLR I could take images of other galaxies or nebulae from my garden (that's perhaps a slight simplification, but not much) when I was a kid...

I am willing to bet that when you were a kid digital cameras did not exist. So no-one could have shown you images of galaxies and nebulae tken with them.

15 years ago you couldn't have used the internet, and wouldn't have had PC with the power to process images either. I recall building a browser called Mosaic back in 96, it was the first one around and you had to compile, build and if necessary debug it yourself.

Have to remember that what exists now and is taken for granted started at some time and what we accept as everyday is probably quite recent.

[Superewza]

I am willing to bet that when you were a kid digital cameras did not exist. So no-one could have shown you images of galaxies and nebulae tken with them.

15 years ago you couldn't have used the internet, and wouldn't have had PC with the power to process images either. I recall building a browser called Mosaic back in 96, it was the first one around and you had to compile, build and if necessary debug it yourself.

Have to remember that what exists now and is taken for granted started at some time and what we accept as everyday is probably quite recent.

And i'm willing to bet that SLRs did exist, which opens a whole other can of worms Hell, my SLR is practically twice as old as me.

OP, that sounds like a great idea. For £10k you could build something great if you use a bit of imagination. Doesn't necessarily have to be just a 'big shed', start from scratch/find some decent dealers and you could end up with something that people immediately recognize as an obsy

[steelfixer]

I think it is a brilliant idea but and there is always a but.

As you are going to have the 'General public' for want of a better word coming to see and use your ob. I think you will find that you are going to have to get local council permission, public liability insurance and be under the mighty weight of the Health and Safety people.

Unless you register as a charity or such likes you may even end up getting charged 'Rates' on the building.

Sorry to put a dampener on your dream but it is, alas a sign of the 'Sue everyone you can' times we live in.

Gone are the days when kind hearted people can set up good things without the red tape drawing a cloud over things.

I do wish you all the best with the project.

Graham

[steelfixer]

I have just noticed that you are in the same wet soggy corner of the country as me.

If you need any help with making things for this dream let me know.

I own a steel fabrication business and if I can help I will.

Graham

[GJBC]

Hi Ben

if you were putting this in your back garden for your use only and it came within certain constraints, it would be fine. you still have to watch boundary fences and percentage of garden used if you comply to these no permission would be needed. check with local council planning offices they are there to help and guide and the one i dealt with were brilliant. A good set of guidelines here Planning Portal - Interactive guidance for householders

use the interactive house and work on the shed in the garden then follow link to " learn more on planning portal"

your idea mentioned public use and it there that the issues start. No if's or but's you will have to obtain planning permission, building regs, and every thing else that comes with building a new structure for use by the public.

The following section need to be completed in a "Design and access statement" document to accompany the planning application ( it now forms part of any application). it follows the new Tan 12 guidelines of June 2009.

1. Access , access to site how who any changes needed to get to this.

2. Character, how the development changes the character of the land/ area

3. Community Safety, how you intent to ensue public safety

4. Environmental sustainability what materials where form carbon footprint etc

5. Movement traffic in and out of site highway byways etc.

There is loads of it to go through. but i am not discouraging you, it can be done. i know that as i have just project managed the Cardiff Astronomical society observatory build at Dyffryn Gardens Cardiff. the whole thing has taken since may 2008. it will operate fully this year in the winter. so sit down belt your self in and go for it.

I have a full set of documents should you need any assistance. dont be shy to drop me a pm and we can get in touch. The council never had to ask a question as all the information was supplied in the councils planing approval meeting one of the officers said " i wish all application came in like that all the info nothing missing, it certainly helps" i was chuffed to bits.

Grahame

[GJBC]

sorry

funding MMMmmm ours came in at all told scope accesories etc £10K ours was funded by our members with a few greatfully accepted donations from business.

try local council for information on grants etc the pointed us to Kickstart a local initiative to assist in getting local projects going. Also try the big utilities companies they are always looking to assist in local communities. our local powered company sponsored a PC and an IT co sponsored us to the cost of all out electric and IT fit out. if you dont ask you dont get. we ended up with a lot more than we would have. and it freed up cash for other things as well. we even had the decking donated. people willing to help are out there, you just need to talk , explain, get something in the local press about the dream and best of all get a member of the council / MP on your side before you apply. they have a better idea of how things work than us laymen. we work very closly with a few of the MP's on dark skys etc lighting etc etc and it reallyu helped as they explained the new application process organisation we needed to speak to etc. they were great. now that is not something you here often but credit when credit is due i say.

best of luck

Grahame

[chemtom24]

sounds like a brilliant idea

hope it all goes well and its not spoiled by a couple of council drips.

[carastro]

Hi Ben,

Sounds a great idea, I go round schools talking about Astronomy with a few other Astro members and we take scopes so the kids (and parents and teachers) can look through them and I know what a thrill you get out of doing this, so can well understand your "Dream".

A couple of thoughts, I gather Telescope House had a problem trying to set up an Observatory on a Farm due to public access and safety issues at night or something, might be worth having a word with them to see what the issues were.

Or talk to the local council and see whether there would be any issues before going any further.

Lastly, if you get the Go-Ahead, maybe you might be able to apply for a lottery grant, but not quite sure whether this would work as an individual (even though it's going to help the local community), or whether you might need to get a recognised body to make the application, such as a local school or Astro group or somesuch.

Carole