Jupiter Dec 1st De-rotate comparrison.

[Space Cowboy]

Here we have 2 images from a 3 min avi. The 1st image is a result of de-rotating the avi and the 2nd is just a standard stack without de-rotate.

For me there is no difference in detail but the de-rotate image is softer. I'm amazed how much less noise the de-rotated avi produces. I actually used stronger wavelets on the de-rotated avi but the image is still softer. Both images were run through PIPP and are identical stack sizes.

In conclussion a 3 min avi does not suffer from rotational blur when stacked in AS!2. (the limbs have been softened by me on the 2nd image but not on the 1st)

De-rotate:

No de-rotate:

[sologuitarist61]

Regardless, they are fine images

[Freddie]

Interesting. I've never used derotate AVI, and I don't think I'll start now.

[Stargazer Jack]

Very nice images once again

[JamesF]

To be honest, I really struggle to tell those two apart. The differences I can pick out are in the equatorial region where I guess you'd expect derotating to make most difference. To me the derotated image seems to have ever so slightly better definition there.

James

[Josh Wilson]

I zoomed out to look at them side by side and I'll say the de-rotate one looks like it is a bit more contrasted but a bit odd around the edges. But either way Jupiter always strikes me as absolutely astrounding. Both striking images, Stuart.

[theo]

Hi Stuart, I did a similar test recently on 2 min AVI's and thought the derotated version was ever so slightly sharper though once I'd posted them on here it was very difficult to notice any difference.

How do you deal with your files when they are above the 2GB limit set by WinJupos?

Lovely images also:-)

Regards

Pete

[neil phillips]

Thats strange, Maybe As/2 has something to do with it, im not sure ? because on the help page of winjupos Grischa Hahn shows a Example where only a 2 min avi has had a sharpened effect. Not a softer effect. But the exact opposite of here using a standard video. And Output stacked image, Wavelet sharpening with Registax 5.0 if As/2 is correcting for this in some way. At what point would it fail to do so 4 mins ? 5 mins ? because if thats so the example you showed me on CN of 5min derotation. would be a complete waste of time.

I wonder if your example will show a 5 min avi with no benefit. Again if it does even stranger ? a extra two mins over the 3 used here is not tons more time. you would have thought some effect would be seen at 3 mins. Whetever way you look at it Jupiter is rotating in this 3 mins and likely more than one would think. The higher the focal length the worse the effect would be. This has to be somekind of AS/2 effect. in which case my questions above are pretty valid.

[neil phillips]

Looking again at the fine detail of both images it gets even stranger, because the derotated avi actually looks more blurry. yet the collection of dark spots upper left north polar region, look closely at the 4 dark spots. the lower spot, is actually smeared out on the non de rotated image, but nice and round on the derotated image. Yet as mentioned the derotated image for the most part looks blurry to my eyes. Almost a contradiction ?

[cgarry]

I agree with Neil that this is a bit of a strange result, though it does match what I found when I did a similar test for a 10 minute colour AVI. I put my results down to WinJUPOS not working well with poor quality data, but Stuart's data seems to be much better quality.

When doing the derotation it is all too easy to make a mistake when entering the date and time or framing the planet. If this happens the results are a bit off.

Cheers,

Chris

[Space Cowboy]

Sorry guys I've made a mistake. Its just occurred to me that I've used the wrong time for the mid point reference frame. I've used the start time of the avi instead of the half way time. Will do this again tonight my apologies!

[cgarry]

Sorry guys I've made a mistake. Its just occurred to me that I've used the wrong time for the mid point reference frame. I've used the start time of the avi instead of the half way time. Will do this again tonight my apologies!

Yep, that is far too easy to do! I am usually alerted to something like this by WinJUPOS thinking there should be a moon present where there is not.

Still, it will be interesting to see what difference that does make.

Cheers,

Chris

[neil phillips]

I agree with Neil that this is a bit of a strange result, though it does match what I found when I did a similar test for a 10 minute colour AVI. I put my results down to WinJUPOS not working well with poor quality data, but Stuart's data seems to be much better quality.

When doing the derotation it is all too easy to make a mistake when entering the date and time or framing the planet. If this happens the results are a bit off.

Cheers,

Chris

I was going to suggest the Time, As i have made mistakes myself, i am constantly mentally rechecking times, as i agree Chris it is very easy to slip up especially when doing multiple images. On one 2 min avi i did a while back i was actually quite shocked at how much sharper i thought the result came out.

I thought it possible that the de roation was doing more than Just taking out the rotation. And was having a sharpening effect itself on the image. But I didnt check side by side, I should have done,

So cant be sure at this point it wasnt just a placebo effect. Though it certainly didnt seem so to me. Regarding the long avi you took Chris, that actually also was a rather strange result i am sure you agree. I wonder if it was possible ( this idea seems pretty unlikely i know ) that somehow when you stacked the image and did quality estimation. many of the poorer frames where at the begining or end, ( or both ) and it was those that were cut off. during processing effectivley leaving you with a much shorter time spans of frames than the 10 mins in question. I agree this seems unlikely ?

[cgarry]

So cant be sure at this point it wasnt just a placebo effect. Though it certainly didnt seem so to me. Regarding the long avi you took Chris, that actually also was a rather strange result i am sure you agree. I wonder if it was possible ( this idea seems pretty unlikely i know ) that somehow when you stacked the image and did quality estimation. many of the poorer frames where at the begining or end, ( or both ) and it was those that were cut off. during processing effectivley leaving you with a much shorter time spans of frames than the 10 mins in question. I agree this seems unlikely ?

That was exactly my thought too, I was going to write a quick script to read the quality log file and draw a graph of where the frames come from. Then I decided life was too short!

Cheers,

Chris

[neil phillips]

Sorry guys I've made a mistake. Its just occurred to me that I've used the wrong time for the mid point reference frame. I've used the start time of the avi instead of the half way time. Will do this again tonight my apologies!

I think these tests do need to be Run Stuart, Ive done so many mistakes myself i know how easy it is. But dont forget this is at the heart of the winjupos software itself, So we know that Jupiter is rotating fast, or winjupos would be a waste of time. its no use claiming that avis are showing no rotation, as we know for a fact that jupiter is moving quite fast, You only have to go to two 5 min sequences then flip between them to see how far Jupiter has moved. And in a 10 min sequence ( interestingly on AS/2 ? ) the moition is well, Immense.

I can post examples of this. Though i realize we are discussing 2 and 3 min sequences which will be far less, i still wouldnt underestimate the softening effects on details at these time spans, especially at high focal length, though it might be subtle.

doing RGB these subtle effects would likely add up, over a RGB run.

Focal length tests are also important. Because lower focal length shots may hide the differences more. Twice the focal length and then we can double the effect

I may run my own tests to see how far the features have moved at varying time spans. using the flip between the images technique will make it easier for the eye to see how far the features have actually moved, regardless how well it is being hidden by other software.

Heres two images i took recently 150% using the flip method, flip between the images to see how far ten mins is actually moving. Its quite revealing i would say. Yet Chris seemed to have minimal rotation, so whats going on here ?

A 5 min time span would have half of this movement ( still pretty significant ) a 3 min sequence just over half that again. Though as mentioned at twice the focal length, more like slightly more than half of this comparison at 3 MINS. So focal length or in particular my 11 meter work would be affected more. Or quite considerably.

I agree at 2 or 3 mins at the focal lengths your working at. ( what are you at 6 7000mm ? ) The effect would be very subtle. without using the flip method possibly hard to see, i am not sure yet ? Though for the numerouse reasons ive mentioned theres more to this than meets the eye.

Just copy paste and flip between the images on windows veiwer. These are 150% Not sure of the focal length but less than 11 meters The avis were de rotated. But the channel time span is not

RED

GREEN

[Space Cowboy]

Obviously Jupiter rotates very quickly but my gut feeling is that up to a point the stacking and aligning of AS!2 corrects this rotation. Remember a while back i did a comparison stacking images from non de-rotated 1 min, 2 min and 3 min avis and there was no visible difference.

When I first de-rotated an avi and was getting that limb halo caused by the de-rotation action, the halo only started to appear on the de-rotated avi at about 3mins 30 secs. So maybe the rotation is so small before that point that AS!2 can correct it?

Anyhow I will run this again and see what happens but I'm not expecting anything dramatic.

[Space Cowboy]

Hi Stuart, I did a similar test recently on 2 min AVI's and thought the derotated version was ever so slightly sharper though once I'd posted them on here it was very difficult to notice any difference.

How do you deal with your files when they are above the 2GB limit set by WinJupos?

Lovely images also:-)

Regards

Pete

Peter the avis over 2 gigs I run through vdub which fixes the corruption that prevents them opening in AS!2. I think Chris told me you can put them straight into PIPP which will fix them too? Also I remember someone saying on the CN forum that if you save the winjupos de-rotation as a SER file then that will open in AS!2 ok.

This particular 3min avi I cropped in PIPP to 330x330 which was under 2 gigs.

[cgarry]

Actually because PIPP generates AVI files to the original AVI spec, it does technically have an issue with creating files over 2 gigs (in the same way as Firecapture did/does), though it is not a problem for most programs until the file gets to be over 4 gigs. Fixing this has been on my to-do list for a while, but never near the top as I could not see anyone needing to generate a file that large...

SER files work fine, but they do not support colour images so colour camera users would need to split into R, G and B files.

[neil phillips]

Pete just crop them on castrator. Then all should be fine, No need to get VD to do a missing block correction. It works fine there after. Sometimes very large files dont work on VD anyway,

i know. Because before i mentioned the two gig limit to Stuart. It lost 6000 from a 7000 avi 60fps 5 min run it went into something called agressive mode. when trying to do the missing block correction. Better to use castrator. Sort the problem at source, Ive had no trouble so far doing it like this. Castrator is the cure Stuart

[neil phillips]

Obviously Jupiter rotates very quickly but my gut feeling is that up to a point the stacking and aligning of AS!2 corrects this rotation. Remember a while back i did a comparison stacking images from non de-rotated 1 min, 2 min and 3 min avis and there was no visible difference.

When I first de-rotated an avi and was getting that limb halo caused by the de-rotation action, the halo only started to appear on the de-rotated avi at about 3mins 30 secs. So maybe the rotation is so small before that point that AS!2 can correct it?

Anyhow I will run this again and see what happens but I'm not expecting anything dramatic.

I agree it does seem like it is having a effect, though i dont know enough about As/2 to determine, the finer questions. like how it does it. At what limit does it fail. your at a particular focal length Stuart. we dont yet know if very high focal length would affect As/2 abillty to seemingly partially correct rotation yet.

So your examples would apply more to you and possibly others with similar focal lengths. I agree intirely that it might not show a lot ( or possibly any ) rotation on your up and coming example. But untill we know more about this. It would certainly be suspect to be relying on AS/2 to partially correct rotation. Especially doing RGB and especially at high focal lengths.I know your not suggesting this at all. But others may miss these concerns. when you say

In conclussion a 3 min avi does not suffer from rotational blur when stacked in AS!2. (the limbs have been softened by me on the 2nd image but not on the 1st)

De-rotate:

That might be true for you, but may not be true for everyone. We dont know enough yet to make that assumption. I agree focal length may have no effect on AS/2 abillty to do whatever it is doing ? But i certainly think we need to know more. Before we assume that. I am also interested at what point ( or focal length ) things are not so hunky dory with AS/2 seeming to do this ? Email k would likely no more

[theo]

Hi Guys,

My problem comes when I''ve completed the debayering of some of my files they are sometime up to 7Gb! ! Castrator will get them down to around 4Gb but still much too large.

I am trying to remember the exact series of events now as I'm not at home but I'm sure whatever I tried I hit a brick wall somewhere when trying AVI derotation.

I also think I tried to covert the file to a SER format that WinJupos will accept but then couldn't overcome issues with reading the file in AS2.

Its crossed my mind that maybe I need to split the file in vdub and try derotate on each section but using a single ims file from the centre of the original file and then stitch them back together!!

Don't know if all above was exactly accurate as I need to try again to refresh my memory on this but it's close.

Regards

Pete

[neil phillips]

Hi Guys,

My problem comes when I''ve completed the debayering of some of my files they are sometime up to 7Gb! ! Castrator will get them down to around 4Gb but still much too large.

I am trying to remember the exact series of events now as I'm not at home but I'm sure whatever I tried I hit a brick wall somewhere when trying AVI derotation.

I also think I tried to covert the file to a SER format that WinJupos will accept but then couldn't overcome issues with reading the file in AS2.

Its crossed my mind that maybe I need to split the file in vdub and try derotate on each section but using a single ims file from the centre of the original file and then stitch them back together!!

Don't know if all above was exactly accurate as I need to try again to refresh my memory on this but it's close.

Regards

Pete

Hi Pete thats strange, thats happening even when you do cropping on castartor ? thought i remebered a 7 gig file going down to below 2 gigs recently. Just to make sure i ran it again using crop on castrator. It went from 7.75 GB to 1.68 GB ? wonder why its not reducing the file size as much, the way it is with me ?

[Space Cowboy]

Castrator and PIPP do the same thing as far as cropping avis go but for a longer avi i.e 5 or 6 mins they are still over 2 gigs. This 3 min avi cropped down to 330x330 was 1.5 gigs so 6 mins would be 3 gig.

You are correct Neil focal length makes a difference and I was not meaning to suggest this test result was the same across the board, as you say that would be confusing for newcomers.

As you say RGB is 3 separate avis each one stacked at a certain point whereas a single colour avi is a continuous stack from the same point. I know when capturing a 3 min avi especially the other night during the transit of Ganymede you could clearly see the moons shadow advance during the 3 mins but the resulting stack was sharp so I do think AS!2 is doing something to counteract this process.

Thanks Chris for clearing up the file format issue i was nearly correct.

[theo]

Hi Neil,

That is interesting. Let me try again when I get home later and I'll let you know what happens.

Pete

[neil phillips]

Its a interesting discussion Stuart, you certainly got me thinking. when i said Email k, i meant Emil K, woops apologies to him. I may run some tests too. If i can muster the energy. a interesting one would be to use reg and AS/2 to see the difference maybe ?

I actually went out last night. Crazy i know it didnt look good did it. And it wasnt lol. too windy. and seeing although not a heavy jet stream. Was very out of focus blur type. I wanted to check my recent collimation though. So worth it. I determined the spider was off centre. Tried to correct that today. But i think i am slowly getting there. Think the weather is going to be naff for a bit. always the way when i am ready to slay the beast. I am going to change my tactic for a bit. ( will still experiment though ) coming down to about f20 using 60 fps getting razor sharp captures 30 fps blue. all channels pushed as high as poss without burnout, and even. Darryl was the motivation for this thinking. Old habits die hard stuart. Trying to do Chris g focal length in the uk, is well erm hard lol. i may post up in a while. but its likely pants as was the wind.