Orion Optics Depreciation ?

[John]

Orion Optics scopes (I guess I'm talking of the Europa, Dobsonian and, maybe the SPX newtonians really) seem to have a respected reputation for optical quality and decent build build but I've noticed that their used price is often way below their cost new. I include my own OO 10" F/4.8 Europa in this which cost me less than 50% of the list price despite being in mint condition and is probably worth still less now.

Most astro stuff depreciates of course and I reckon the low price / reasonable quality of the Chinese equivalents is an important factor here but are there any other reasons why this might be so for OO scopes ?.

On the plus side, it means there are some real bargains about for the astute used scope buyer

[Peter Drew]

Many that I have spoken to percieve that O-O scopes are overpriced compared to others that appear to have similar specification. Experienced amateurs are aware of the good optical reputation and find them excellent used bargains. After the initial depreciation down to the average price of a given aperture this is probably where the value remains constant.

[Moonshane]

I agree completely with Peter. I would never buy one new and bought both of mine used. The new equivalents would be around £1600 for the pair I have. I got them for £700 total. They are still generally a little more expensive than the used equivalent Chinese scopes but in my view that's worth it. I am definitely a fan.

I suppose the main advantage with OO when new is that you can be specific in every aspect of the scope as to what quality of component you require. Personally in relation to dobs, I feel their bases are well worth the additional money, although the 6" base is a little tall and thin and not close to the sturdiness of the 12". If I ever sold mine (highly unlikely) I'd expect to get at least what I paid for them.

[Ben Ritchie]

Oddly enough I was wondering about this yesterday evening. I'm planning in a larger Dob purchase before too long - currently on hold waiting for news of the larger SkyWatchers - but have been looking at the OO options too and noticed that the used prices seem very much out of line with new.

Guess it's that some/many/most buyers will weigh up a used OO 'scope against a brand-new and either considerably cheaper or larger-aperture (or both!) SkyWatcher and pick the latter - the basic solid-tube SW Dobs and the Newtonian OTAs are extremely attractive from a value-for-money perspective. So people prepared to pay a premium for a used (or new, I suppose) OO OTA are few and far between.

[Moonshane]

I have only owned a small Celestron reflector other the two OO's I have now and hand on heart I am not sure there's really that much of an optical difference between the standard optics of all of the usual options (including OO) and as Ben says the OTAs of the competition to OO are extremely well made and good VFM.

the base of the OO dob though is something else. Mine will no doubt still be around in 50 years and when added to the choice of optical quality OO are, to me at least, worth the money but it's all relative of course and whether the seeing in the UK justifies the additional cost of the better optics is often debatable too?

maybe I'm just justifying the additional money I paid but I don't think so.

[Ben Ritchie]

the base of the OO dob though is something else.

And this is a weakness of the SW Dobs too, IMO. The optics on my 200p are nice, the standard focuser is acceptable, but the base needs some real work. But it looks like it's possible to add an OO Dob base to a different OTA, so this is something I may well look into.

[Moonshane]

And this is a weakness of the SW Dobs too, IMO. The optics on my 200p are nice, the standard focuser is acceptable, but the base needs some real work. But it looks like it's possible to add an OO Dob base to a different OTA, so this is something I may well look into.

hi Ben

it definitely is possible. the problem is that the bases are expensive for what they are again, unless you can pick up a used one. you might do as I bet some people buy as a dob and then EQ mount for imaging later.

[Carbon Brush]

I echo the comments on the optical quality of these scopes, have owned 2 Europas.

There is though another benefit of buy any OO scope 2nd hand. You know what you are getting. Several years ago I bought a new Europa from them and after the experiences, I have never bought direct from them again. The scope got damaged in transit because they didn't pack it correctly. Then they tried to blame me for accepting the damaged parcel. On ther outside the box was fine. It was the idiot who put the wrong packing around the scope. Then I couldn't get it collimated. I took it to my local astro soc for help and they couldn't sort it either. The secondary mirror was not lined up to the focusser. Eventually after much argument with OO and a lot of work on my part I ended up with a decent scope that I have used for a long time.

I would consider buying a new OO scope - but only from a dealer. I would give him a 10% deposit and only hand over the rest only after I had inspected the working good scope in his shop.

The words 'Orion Optics Sales' and 'barge pole' go together as far as I am concerned.

[cootuk]

Looking at various comparisons between Europas and Skywatchers, the general feeling is the Europas may be slightly brighter (due to Hilux coatings?) but the UK skies generally aren't good enough to let the Europas perform as well as they could - unless you have regular access to a dark sky site. People then question the price premium when buying and wont pay a large premium for no perceived gain in use.

[russ]

I have bought one scope brand new from OO. It was a Europa 150 F5 Deluxe. I haggled a bit and got the dual speed focuser and 1/8th PV optics included for the price. It cost £300, which included a 9x50 right angle finder as well. It was a pleasure dealing with John at OO. But I was a little shocked at the lack of packaging when it arrived. However, it made it one piece. And it was a cracking scope that gave some superb views (and still does, Harry, my eldest son has it now).

That was the tail end of my imaging days and at the time it was the only way i could buy an off the shelf scope that worked out of the box with the DSLR, no focusing issues. But i wouldn't buy new again.

[Ogri]

This is going to become an increasingly obvious general trend (it might even become rapidly obvious at some point before too long).

We have had decades of unwarranted price inflation, which has led to 'brought forward' purchasing (buying tomorrows production today, and paying for it tomorrow), that has been strongly fuelled by irresponsible credit facilities.

In general, today, products are chronically overpriced. This, in the face of diminishing real purchasing power (Globally). eta: And producers have been squeezed hard too -one day they will wake up and sell direct, cutting out those in the middle that have been fleecing both them and the end customer.

Basically the insanity train is close to hitting the buffers at the end of the track.

You can see this in action here, and on AB&S, with how slowly good stuff has been selling this past few months. How much people are starting to discount.

You see it in the supermarket too, with things like the attempt to run up the price of bread (especially last year after the lie about wheat harvests, when in fact there were record harvests just about everywhere, and the same stunt is being tried this year). A top brand loaf that started off at 85p, then ended up at £1.85, only tends to sell when it is a special of 'Two for £1.50' - the real price is now 75p or less.

For most people, available cash is getting to be in extremely short supply. The Credit Crunch is now feeding into wider areas.

As I see it, we (Globally) are already into the beginning stages of a deflationary Depression (a reset, in other words, and it is long overdue). Once into such a thing, there is no exit, until it has run its course (look at Japan, stuck in one for almost 20 years now, and all because they will not write off the worthless paper that is still held on the books, and bankrupt the institutions that are chronically insolvent).

Businesses that put their prices up going into such an event, in an attempt to maintainmargins, rarely survive.

For perspective, already in America, even entire Police Departments are being sacked. Because the money is no longer there to be able to pay for them and run them.

This is going to be a very rough ride, and 'rip-off' Companies and rip-off practices are going to be worse than frowned upon. 'The Market' has been bucked, it doesn't like it, and it 'pays back' with an awful amount of interest.

There for sure are going to be some bargains along the way though - IF you have disposable cash available to take advantage of them.

That's a very big IF!

[John]

Some very interesting views expressed here folks - thanks for the input

Given a) the cost and mixed feedback on sales service quality, I think I'd be wary of buying a new Orion Optics scope but the benefits of being able to specify the scope you want and the undoubted optical quality still remain attractive. If I could, I think I'd visit in person as part of the decision / ordering process - from my day job dealings I find that business relationships work that much better when the 2 parties have met face to face at least once.

Ben makes a very valid point about Skywatcher (and Revelation / Meade I guess) dobsonian bases - they could be better. I would have thought that there might be a market in better quality replacement dobsonian bases as an alternatvie to the Orion Optics ones which retail at £175 and upwards (£600 if you need one for a 16" OTA !). Something a bit like this:

1stBase Collapsible Dobsonian Mounts

[Whippy]

I think the same argument also applies to Russian made kit. You pay a premium for the better quality and some of the bargains to be had in the secondhand market are crazy compared to the list price.

Another issue to take into account is that branding does make a difference. I'm sure most of us at some point would have noticed a secondhand Celestron scope tends to sell for more than the exact same Skywatcher version.

Tony..

[Ogri]

I think you are right John.

Personally, I'm surprised nobody has come up with a cheap, light, strong, and waterproof, structural foam cored dob base yet.

Now that I have a dob coming, I may have a go at one myself.

[Ben Ritchie]

Ben makes a very valid point about Skywatcher (and Revelation / Meade I guess) dobsonian bases - they could be better. I would have thought that there might be a market in better quality replacement dobsonian bases

One for FLO maybe - i'd have thought both a <£50 parts-only kit (replacement bearings, locking wheels etc. plus instructions) and a full replacement base would sell well. It's really the weak point in Skywatcher's Dob lineup - at least the solid-tubes, dunno if the truss is any better as i've not owned one.

[johninderby]

One thing that is often not taken into account is that OO scopes are hand built to order, and there's no way they can compete on price with mass produced Chinese scopes, so you are going to pay a premium for them. That's the way it is for hand built equipment, be it high end audio or telescopes or whatever.

If I was selling an OO dob with a 1/10PV mirror I'd take out the mirror & secondary and sell them separately as they would sell for more than the value of the complete scope. For some reason people are often willing to pay top price for individual bits of top quality kit when they would never do that for the whole scope. . Then I'd sell the base on it's own and get a few more quid for the other bits and pieces and chuck the tube in the bin.

I see from posts on the Orion Optics UK yahoo group that the OO order books are full and they're having trouble keeping up with demand so there are certainly plenty of customers willing to pay for an OO scope.

John

[optical thrombosis]

Second hand prices usually reflect what people are willing to pay, not what the item is actually worth.