Paypal Amendments effective 1st June 2010

[Adrian Condon]

Hi Folks,

I have just received an email from Paypal this morning (14th April 2010) saying that Paypal are making certain amendments to their Agreement Documentation. I suspect a lot of you will be receiving or have received the same.

There is one change that maybe of interest to "Gazers" on this forum.

Qoute from the email...........

2. Restricted Activities

A new Section 9.1.ff is being added to make it a restricted activity to request or send personal transaction payments for commercial transactions.

Section 9.1ff will read as follows (presented in context with its root clauses):

“9.1 Restricted Activities. In connection with your use of our website, your Account, or the Services, or in the course of your interactions with PayPal, a User or a third party, you will not:

ff. Request or send a personal transaction payment for a commercial transaction.”

I think they are saying that you will not be allowed to transfer funds for goods purchased marked "gift" to the seller via Paypal.

There is also a clause in there saying that funds are made available immediately to the receipient (i.e. seller), so there should be no reason for the seller not to despatch the purchased goods with reasonable haste.

The question is, is a transaction between two forum members a commercial transaction or not?

In my view a commercial transaction would be a transaction between FLO and a forum member, on the grounds that FLO is an excellent commercial seller.

Views and comments are welcomed....

Cheers

Adrian

[Demonperformer]

The dictionary defines commercial as "interchange of merchandise on a large scale between nations or individuals; extended trade or traffic".

Based on that definition, it would appear that a 'one-off' does not qualify as it is neither on a large scale, nor extended.

Paypal, of course, may argue that any transaction which involves the exchange of goods or services for money (as opposed to a unilateral 'gift') is commercial. The only way to be absolutely sure of their interpretation would be to email them and ask.

[steppenwolf]

I am no lover of PayPal but I do use them. My own view is that selling an item to a fellow member and asking for payment as a 'gift' is well outside the spirit of PayPal's gift system so I am not surprised to see them tighten up on this - they are after all providing a service so they should charge for that service on that sort of transaction as clearly someone is 'gaining' from the sale of the item?

[haitch]

Never understood the gift thing - you can do the same thing with the charges if you send as a personal payment owed which I think better fits the small scale transactions on here.

[brianb]

My own view is that selling an item to a fellow member and asking for payment as a 'gift' is well outside the spirit of PayPal's gift system so I am not surprised to see them tighten up on this

Ditto. I have reservations about Paypal's near monopoly position & I think their standard charges are close to extortionate but they have a perfect right to try to prevent people from using "personal transactions" to cut their revenue stream.

[beamish]

I think Haitch's method would be the one to use. As for "commercial" transaction ,I'd have to say that I believe small scale B&S tween members would not qualify, tho I feel pretty sure at some stage we'll see this tested .

[Psychobilly]

Been caught with this before so wont be accepting "gifts" anymore.. the purchaser will have to add any fees as well...

Peter...

[part timer]

I try to avoid Paypal unless the seller insist upon it. I think however that the whole gift system which most people seem to demand these days is blatantly flouting the spirit for which it was created.

I am surprised it exists at all and even more surprised it has lasted so long.

[samtheeagle]

I agree that PayPal's charges are nigh on robbery, but we don't have to use them if we're happy to wait for a week or more for cheques in the post and clearing... Personally I prefer to send money as a payment and accept the fees myself. That way I am more likely to be covered by their buyer protection policy (maybe?). Luckily I've never had any problems though

[BlueAstra]

If I send money from one email address to another email address (as in PayPal gift), how do they know it's not a gift and is a commercial transaction?

[Demonperformer]

we don't have to use them if we're happy to wait for a week or more for cheques in the post and clearing

Most of my transactions through SGL have been done by bank transfer, where this waiting problem does not arise. On the odd occasion the other party has not been happy with that, it is my choice whether to proceed and wait, or abort the transaction.

[Astro_Baby]

I think its worth mentioning that IF you are caught out by Paypal their standard policy is to freeze your account for anything up to 120 days.

I have been stuffed over by them on a perfectly legit transation and all I got out of them was something akin to "You have violeted our TOS, we wont tell you what TOS, please read the TOS page, we wont answer your emails, we wont discuss with you, your money is frozen for 120 days'

My opnion of Paypal after that was that they are out and out shysters and I refuse to use what they are pleased to call a 'service'.

If more people did likewise they would have to reconsider.

[barkis]

I am no lover of PayPal but I do use them. My own view is that selling an item to a fellow member and asking for payment as a 'gift' is well outside the spirit of PayPal's gift system so I am not surprised to see them tighten up on this - they are after all providing a service so they should charge for that service on that sort of transaction as clearly someone is 'gaining' from the sale of the item?

I agree Steve. It was only a matter of time before Paypal scotched that perk. Too many profiteers taking advantage of it. Of course they can only blame themselves, as it was always going to be exploited.

Ron.

[Psychobilly]

I suppose a quick search for "paypal as gift" would have given them "proof" of the way people were using the "loophole"...

Disiputes with paypal are a nightmare.. we use them "comercially" and had a large sum of money frozen with paypal and it was extremely frustrating trying to resolve the issues it was exactly as AB said in her post...

Peter...

[Catanonia]

Add ebay into the paypal fold (yes same people at the end of the day) and you get.

1. Charged for listing.

2. Charged a % of final price of ebay item

3. Charged for using the paypal they almost force on you.

It can add up to a large %

But they have the monopoly....

[samtheeagle]

Yeah, Cat is absolutely right... I sold some stuff on ebay recently, and paid over 10% of the final sale price in fees

We should start a movement to use a different site, as long as ebay and paypal are the only real players they're going to take take take. Anyone used ebid? Seems to the talked about a lot as an alternative, but is a tiddler in comparison. Unless they can get a big user base they're not going to be an attractive option.

[brianb]

We should start a movement to use a different site

What's wrong with Astro Buy and Sell?

[Tony.S]

What's wrong with Astro Buy and Sell?

Astro Buy & Sell is great..If you know its there.

The good thing with eBay is that virtually everyone in the world has heard of eBay & as long as the item you are selling is reasonably priced, you are almost guaranteed of selling it within 10 days.

The bad thing about eBay & Paypal is that they do have the monopoly & they know it & can they change the rules as & when it suits them..They also know but dont care if they upset a few sellers, because sadly there is no other real alternative.

I use eBay & Paypal a lot, simply because I have no other real option...Paypal is great for buyers, its free & very safe, any disputes nearly alway end in the buyers favour but Paypal is not so good for sellers,other than instant payment, there are quite high fees & every chance of being scammed by not some so honest buyers (so sellers should always send out items of value by trackable & signed for mail)

I dont know if its an eBay rule or a Paypal one but sellers are not even allowed to ask buyers to cover Paypal fees, which I find to be out of order if you are also offering different means of payment like cheques,postal orders or cash on collection.

[brianb]

I dont know if its an eBay rule or a Paypal one but sellers are not even allowed to ask buyers to cover Paypal fees

so many eBay sellers cover their fees by loading their "post & packing" charge.

So long as there are rules & regulations, there will be ways of wriggling round them.

[Tony.S]

so many eBay sellers cover their fees by loading their "post & packing" charge.

So long as there are rules & regulations, there will be ways of wriggling round them.

I agree that there were a lot of sellers making a lot of money by postage charges ie: Buy It Now 1p P&P £75, eBay have been trying to address the P&P issue by capping the P&P charges allowed, once again though, it hit the honest ppl amonst us & it something that eBay had to backfoot on a bit.

I normally sell books on eBay & when they changed it to having to list books & media to free post it was a joke, some of the books I have weigh 2 or 3 kilos, which meant I had to set the starting price higher, which meant the eBay gained even more fees.

If there was a viable alternative to eBay, I would use it.

[Psychobilly]

The buy it now cheap with high P&P from overseas is a mechanism used for getting round import duty... you soemtimes see the same items from the same selelr with a higher price and lower shipping but the total being the same...

The UK PO have recently upped the price of Special Delivery as well... you know pay a lot more for lighter parcels

Peter...

[Adrian Condon]

Tony.........

I think that certain eSellers use the postage charge in an unacceptable manner.

I have seen people caught out on camera gear with low bid + high postage = higher than the new price in my local camera shop... what are these buyers dreaming of.

I always check the new price or used price (if available) before making any bids.

Secondly, some of the advertisers selling secondhand or as some say pre-used equipment in the Camera mags are cheaper than eBay. Plus astro gear for sale on this forum is usually cheaper than eBay and the sellers know what they are selling!!

We have commented before on ebay sales were they look like a scam.

I have on one occasion experienced a situation were a new seller to Paypal would not send the goods because Paypal were witholding the funds for 30 days.

I agree that the postage on books can be very high and some book sellers are losing out because the actual postage is higher than they actually quote.

Best Wishes

Adrian