GOTO or not

[trev]

Hi all, hope everyone is well.

I am looking at getting a scope. I have done the basic reading on the types of scopes. I have read a few mags and checked the ads, etc. It seems I have come down to wondering what I am going to get for my money. I must admit that the Meade ETX range caught my eye first with their apparant auto positioning system. This seems very cool. I have been thinking about the ETX105 in particular. Now I must admit that I was thinking about saving up the pennies for one secondhand.

Well, the more I read up and look into it the more I wonder if I need the GOTO or not. Now, I did see the TAL1 range secondhand for about 100. This is quite a difference in price. Does anyone have any advice on the practical differences between these two scopes or scopes similar to the TAL1. I am happy to learn how to find things if it is just a matter of spending a little time reading up and having a go. But does the GOTO system really make for a better night of viewing or is it the lazy mans tool for astronomy? and make for less education and realisation of what is being viewed?

I was also wondering how much difference there is in what you can see for the money? What will the actual difference be in seeing Saturn for example?

Thanks

Trev

[GazOC]

Hi Trev,

There are broadly two schools of thought on GOTO. One is that you are making the most of your time at the eyepiece by looking at things rather than looking for them. The other is that you can take pride in learning the skies and finding things for yourself, a lot of the fun can be in the 'hunt'.

One thing I wouldn't do is compromise the scope you buy so you can afford GOTO, if you can afford both a good scope and a GOTO mount then fine. If you can't then get the scope and learn the skies until you can afford a GOTO mount (if you still want one). A problem with the ETX is that it doesn't allow this mix'n'match approach, it's a combined system.

Gaz

[geppetto]

Hello Trev

Here's my two penneth

Firstly, my views on ETX scopes without wanting to upset folk who own them.

A mate of mine had an ETX105 and optically it was fine but the motor drives a clutches

left a lot to be desired. We spent a lot of time tweaking that scope but it was never

consistant and you could forget hanging the extra weight of a camera onto it.

What you get is really down to your budget.

Here is a bargain new scope in the UK

http://www.telescopehouse.co.uk/page.aspx?theLang=001lngdef&pointerid=09845F21ACB647A0BA9B91F4FFC618F8&action=lnk

Its a good size aperture so you will get to see lots of deep sky objects plus being a DOB mount, its easy to set up

and you will get to learn the sky as you progress with it.

As far as goto is concerned, its a great tool but the mount has to be well built and stable.

You really would be looking at an HEQ5 Pro or similar at around £850 new!

Such a mount would hold the 8" Revelation scope if you got some rings for it.

Keep an eye on the secondhand astronomy sale sites, lots of bargains to be had.

Good luck with it all and have fun

[moondog]

Trev

You could go for an upgrade approach - say buying the Revelation dob suggested by Phil and using that initially. It should give you some excellent views. Problem with a dob is that if you want to look at planets at a reasonable magnification- say 200x plus you will struggle to follow the planet. Upgrading to a standard HEQ5 equatorial mount would enable you to use the scope for high mag. planets. The standard HEQ5 costs about £400 and has a good motor drive to track the stars and planets. You can upgrade the HEQ5 if you want to go-to for £430. I upgraded my HEQ5 initially for the much faster motors to move the scope between targets, but find the go-to more useful than I thought.

The weather in the UK is a great problem and you need to find things quickly before the sky clouds over. As Gaz says that can be the go-to's great advantage.

Hope this helps.

MD

[russ]

I endorse the views already given. Get a good scope (the Revelation 8 would be perfect), learn the skies and when funds permit, by a suitable GOTO mount. HEQ5 Skyscan would be my first choice too, they can be had for £749 new. Unfortunately they are not making it onto the secondhand market.

Also worth considering the Celestron ASGT mount which is approx £150 cheaper than the HEQ5. Or you can have the Meade LXD75 with 6" Newtonian and Autostar for £520 new from Pulsar.

Don't go the ETX route, you'll limit your options in more ways than one. The ETX would make a good second scope though.

btw I made do without GOTO for 23 years, learn't the skies, pretty hot at finding faint fuzzies, thought i would never need GOTO. I only invested in GOTO for the benefits it would bring to my imaging but as it turns out GOTO is SUPERB! With so little time it really does maximise my precious observing time.

Regards

Russ

[MartinB]

Lots of good advice there Trev but thought I would add some comments on the Tal1 you mentioned.  I had a Tal1 reflector for a while and it can't praise it highly enough.  Very well made, superb optics on a very stable german equatorial mount.  I loved using this scope.  It taught me how to polar align, search for fuzzies, use setting circles and balancing of the scope.  It gave good planetary and deep sky views and out performed it's aperture.  The guide scope it came with wasn't the finest (unusual for a Russian scope) but I would strongly recommend investing in a Telrad finder anyway.

The downside of the Tal is the it is a bit of a cul-de-sac because the mount can't easily be motorised.  The travel using the slo mo controls is also limited.  If you want a "suck it and see" scope with a view to moving on once you know more clearly what you need it is ideal.  It will teach you loads and at £170 it is a very good buy.

You asked about Saturn.  With the Tal I was able to make out the Cassini division in the rings very clearly as well as some of the banding detail on the disc.  Here is a link to a posting of a Saturn image I took with the scope.  I was very much a novice at this process at the time.

http://stargazerslounge.co.uk/index.php?topic=2514.0

You won't see Saturn quite like this through the scope since the imaging process helps bring out a lot of detail but it gives you some idea of what the scope is capable of.

[trev]

Thanks everyone for your time and advice.

It is quite an exciting time looking for a scope. I am wondering if the ETX-80 would make for a good finder scope. I wonder if it would end up being a useful scope for the future. The TAL1 I have seen has the motor attached and the person seems really quite decent. It seems that for not much money really I could have a good starter set up with the TAL. I was wondering if 135 for a secondhand ETX-80 is a bargain not to be missed or something that would come around at that price again.

As for the upgrade path, your help is priceless. The Dobs do look like they might be difficult to work with. But I dont know. You mention the Revelation 8. Would the larger ones in the range also g

fit on the mounts suggested?

[Mick.G.]

I'd go for the Tal1 Trev. I have a etx80 and is an OK scope for WFOV, but the Planet's let it down I'm afraid.

You'll get a much better all round scope with the Tal1.

Mick.

[Kaptain Klevtsov]

Just to chuck in an imaging aside here, it does depend on what your sky is like. I have loads of light pollution from the surrounding towns and cities as well as very local light pollution so that I don't get dark adaptation to let me see faint things in the 'scope. What I find that I can do is use a camera and filter to catch the image so that I can look at it later. With the GOTO system I only need to find the more impressive stars to align the GOTO system and then ask it to aim at something dim and distant. Looking through the 'scope I can't see anything, but if I stick a filtered camera on there and do a long exposure I can "see" what is there.

The GOTO systems are expensive but I think that they are almost essential for imaging.

Until you can decide what you want to aim at, if you want to look at it or image it, I would go for a "toe in the water approach" which appears to be the TAL. Once you have a 'scope you can then find out what you can and can't see and go from there. It's not really useful buying stuff to visually observe what you can't actually see from where you are looking.

My situation is currently, I have moved away from planetary imaging as it doesn't work from where I live. The planets are kept in the general direction of the lights and houses from my yard so the seeing is generally awful and not conducive to imaging. WOW LOOK AT THAT doesn't work when she's watching telly inside, however a picture of what you were looking at outside lets other people in your family know that you are managing to do something.

Visually I can do the big planets, but they are bright enough that most kinds of 'scopes will get you an image that will give you a real buzz, ditto the moon. What I have found most rewarding is the imaging of things that I have no right being able to see, such as galaxies, from my nasty light polluted area. To coax a picture of a galaxy that is so far away it isn't even worth thinking about, out of a camera is currently doing it for me.

I would advise you to get a 'scope, wave it about , and then have another think. Don't spend oodles of cash initially on the wrong kind of kit as this might induce early disappointment, but then again that's rich coming from me who's so overdrawn its not funny.

Captain Chaos

[daz]

The dobs are not difficult to use - like anything, just takes a little practice. The Revelations are quoted as being very good indeed. Several members have one and praise them very highly.

As has been mentioned, you can then purchase a mount when funds allow and make the decision then weather or not to GOTO.

Personally, if you were thinking of spending £135 on an ETX, I'd save a little more and get the 8" Revelation dob.

[GazOC]

I was wondering if 135 for a secondhand ETX-80 is a bargain not to be missed or something that would come around at that price again.

As for the upgrade path, your help is priceless. The Dobs do look like they might be difficult to work with. But I dont know. You mention the Revelation 8. Would the larger ones in the range also g

fit on the mounts suggested?

With the ETX80, it's still only a 80mm scope and the quality of views you get depend on a large degree on the size of the scope.

An EQ5 will take the 8" and the 10" ("just" in the case of the 10")

An HE5 will take the 10"

and the EQ6 will take the lot.

IMHO the 8" Dob gives great value and doesn't close off the upgrade path if you decide to get into the photography side of things.

[trev]

Thanks again for all the input from you guys. I am coming round to the Dobs. Now, like everything. I start looking at the 8inch and end up just taking a peek at the 10inch. . I cant find a bad word against these revelation scopes at telescope house.

Is it worth the push to maybe wait an extra month or so and get the 10 inch?

Trev

[OXO]

If you can wait and afford the extra 2" i would deff go for it Trev that extra light gathering makes all the differance in the world

PS:Welcome to the forum

[GazOC]

Myself and Steve have got the 10", THB it's not a massive step up in views from the 8" IMO and it would take the extra mounting if and when you wanted GOTO. Also the 8" is f6 and the 10" f5, generally the shorter the f# the better eyepices you need and more fussy the optics are to collimation (being aligned correctly). f6 is pretty accomodating on both counts.

[trev]

Thanks, James.

GazOC, are there any accessories that are worth getting at the start or is the scope more than adequate to get going?

I am hoping that I can store this in the garage at the end of the garden. Are they okay to move about? I dont want to be knocking it about and breaking my back.

Trev

[GazOC]

Trev,

You can pick the whole thing up in one go very easily. Dobs are great way to get big scope views at a decent price, the mounts (particulary GOTOs) are a large part of the cost for some scopes.

Things you'll "need" are a wide field eyepiece (a 32mm or 40mm), a Barlow lens and a collimation (alignment) tool. "Need" is probably the wrong word though, but they are things you'll need sooner or later if you get into the hobby.

Gaz

[OXO]

Also to add to Gaz's post if you can have a flag stone on ya garden and make it level this will help too with Dobs i found in the past makes tracking(by hand) so much easier

[Astroman]

The more I see, the more I'm against GOTO for beginners. Learn the sky. Slowly. Patience is the greatest virtue of this hobby. It's what's allowed me to find every necked eye planet during the day. Buy a GOTO when you've completed the Herschel 400. Just this last week, I had found Jupiter hours before sunset and showed it to the public, while upwards of 6 GOTO scopes sat idle, looking at the ground.

[ric_capucho]

Just to chuck in my ha'penny:

The goto versus no-goto debate revolves mainly around astronomers who've had at least a year or two using a telescope under the night sky, i.e. from a quite a bit experienced through to highly experienced. There are two camps: "I now know the skies well enough to star hop, so don't need these daft gizmos wot get in between me and my god"; "I can see more in an evening session with this 'ere goto, than you luddites can see in a month". Both are fair views, methinks, but both are informed views made by those experienced enough to have an opinion either way.

The novice to the sport really doesn't hold either view; the newbie just wants to see stuff. Every star looks the same up there, most constellations unknown ('cept Orion and the Plough), and there's an understandable hunger for instant gratification. Now I believe the first evening or so spent with an ETX is wasted getting to know how to set the damn thing up, but the following evenings are often an amazing experience for the newbie. That gratification would be a long time coming without a goto, and who knows if the newbie has the patience up front to do it all the hard way.

Sooooooooooo, nonwithstanding the usual ETX operational caveats, I would indeed recommend an ETX (or something similar) to a newbie. I just hope that same newbie stays in the hobby long enough to join one or other camp after that first year is up.

Ric