OO Coatings / mirror problems

[haitch]

Have to say I'm pretty down about it all.

I went to OO for 2 reasons:-

1. Reputation for 1st class optics

2. I can drive there in less than 1 hour so no need to entrust my mirrors to the throwstal service.

With the cost of shipping on top of Galvoptics prices it would have worked out a little more expensive comparing OO standard coatings to Galvoptics although basic prices are cheaper at Galvoptics on a like for like basis.

Anyway, in the end I went for what I believed was the Rolls Royce of coatings from a company that is supposed to be one of the UK's leading optics manufacturers.

It feels like I have received the service you'd expect from a Dacia dealer.

I'll post my missive to OO word for word and also their response so let's see what they have to say.

[FLO]

Do you have a photo of the mirror prior to it being re-coated?

[George]

Sorry but I wouldn't accept those mirrors back from OO in that condition, £255 is a lot of money, at the very least OO should have contacted you after stripping the old coatings and said there could be a problem.

I think the story told regarding salt corrosion etc is a load of old bolony.

Ask them to re-do the coatings or your money back.

Failing that get trading standards involved.

[haitch]

Do you have a photo of the mirror prior to it being re-coated?

No. It was in a pretty sorry state with plenty of regions where the coating had deteriorated to the point where it was completely transparent. It was like it when I bought it (fairly cheaply) as a project.

I have never heard of, or come across, any report of the glass of a telescopes mirror being damaged by anything other than abrasion (which this does not appear to be). I've now learned that glass can be corroded (as OO indicate to be the case) but from the links you posted Steve it seems unlikely that it would occur with telescope optics in anything less than an industrial environment.

The general view I'm getting is that it's wrong that they didn't give me the chance to decide whether to continue to spend over £250 on mirrors that would end up with defects. I have to say I'm in agreement.

One of the reasons for spending the extra was to make it an excellent scope that one day might be sold should I change my mind about my observing preferences (I see OO have a 1/2m Dob now should I ever feel I could deal with them again). Whilst it may be perfectly useable with the defects it's going to have a significant impact on the scope's value should I ever decide to sell it so I will never be able to realise the value of having Hilux coatings.

[adamsp123]

I would expect before stripping, after and again prior to coating you would inspect the glass to ensure there are no defects/dust before proceeding to the costly coating phase.

If a defect was discovered even after the final finish which I assume was checked for quality the spots must have been noted, crikey its obvious on the pics, and then you tell the customer, in not telling you makes me think there is something to hide.

I also noticed 4 of the spots are in line like something was dripping on the surface whilst on the move, probably coincidence though.

Hope you get it sorted to your satisfaction

Pete

[PaulC-I]

I feel compelled to add to this thread after a couple of negative experiences with this company. My background is some 30years as a craftsman, formally learning a trade within an engineering environment (RAE Farnborough). After many years of crafting various projects from musical instruments to bespoke furniture, as well as the odd aviation project (Producing components for the 'Cody 1 flyer' shown at Farnborough air show last year), I began telescope making.

Last year completed a 5" hex box refractor with a H. Wildey doublet (Pictures to follow shortly on another thread). This year I have put together a reflector using a H. Wildey 8" F7 mirror set Circa 1973. I had thought about a skeleton tube however my time became restricted earlier in the year so I decided on using OO to produce:

a. mirror cell

b. roll a tube

I rang OO, gave precise dimensions of the mirror, had full payment extracted, and was told a 2 week wait was in hand.

Six weeks later a mirror cell arrived. The mirror would not fit as the clips appeared to be ‘standard’ (probably to fit OO mirrors). Some of the components of the cell were not consistent in quality, blind holes half way through to the other side on some pieces thus limiting adjustment.

I rang OO, no apology no suggestions? I volunteered to make and send a dummy mirror from wood to the exact measurement. There was no offer or reimbursement of postage costs, not even a thank you!

A further 4 weeks later a cell arrived that ‘did the job’ however I had to take it apart and ream out holes to make it adjust properly

The tube

After much considering I decided to put an order in for a tube to be made and painted (how hard can it be with the right tooling?).

I rang OO, Was promised a 10 day turn around and had the full payment extracted. I hesitated after a day and rang to cancel the order in favour of a skeleton tube but was told that it had already been rolled? and would be of no use at that length for any other scope customer…………………………………………..One month later after phone enquiries I received the tube. (Did it take this long for the paint to dry?)

Now I confess that I had given a wrong measurement of where the focuser hole should go and Barry picked up on this and rang me to check (One tick)

However on opening the box I discovered that the tube was not a tube of a perfect nature but had a flat of approx 11/2” down the length next to the join.

Also when fitting the end caps found that one would not fit as the diameter of one end was approx 2-3mm bigger! (I have rectified this and have the cap fitting after a bit of sheet metal work manipulation!

I can’t believe the caps were not fitted ‘Dry’ at the factory as part of quality control. This is a big box to potentially send back!

I was not given any apologies for delays in production or mistakes that had been made by OO. I found their attitude very poor. I have other projects in the pipeline including a 14” Jim Hysom mirror set scope. This will require re-coating, alas to say I will not be visiting OO.

Because of my background and experience I believe I have a right to comment

I would suggest that OO take a hard look at their quality control and customer care!

[haitch]

Well here's my e-mail to OO. Quite calm, collected and reasonable I think.

Dear Sir,

I picked up my mirror set from you yesterday, recoated in Hilux, with great expectations. On getting the mirrors home I opened the packaging and was somewhat disappointed with the results. There are 6 distinct blemishes of the coating of the primary mirror each around ½ cm in diameter.

When I telephoned to inquire what had happened I received the explanation that they would be caused by corrosion of the glass by salts in moisture that had previously settled on the mirror. This was worked out on the phone from my description of their appearance.

I must say that I am a little perplexed that the first I knew of these blemishes was when I unpackaged the mirrors at home. I’m sure you can understand my deflation, frustration and, to no small degree, annoyance at having spent some £255 with you, on what I expected to be the best coatings and service that money can buy, only to receive, with no warning, a product that falls far short of the standard of excellence I had expected.

I have asked around on one of the astronomy forums I visit regularly and, whilst it is acknowledged that glass is not indestructible, it does seem uncommon. I recognise your experience and expertise in this field and would be interested in any information you have on this sort of problem, not least to set my mind at ease that the mirror will not deteriorate further.

The apparent corrosion aside there is one burning issue which I have not managed to understand… Why did I only discover these problems when I opened the mirrors up at home?

Surely the problem must have been evident in the early stages of the stripping and recoating process. (Your website declares an unrivalled attention to detail and individual inspections.) Had you made me aware at this stage (you had my mobile number) I would have reconsidered my decision to spend such a large sum of money on a mirror that could never be top notch.

Even if your inspections had missed the problem before the process was complete (which would be unlikely given the care you claim to take) it would be near impossible to miss on the completed item. I cannot understand how this was not seen before the mirror was packaged and, when it had been seen, that no one from your company thought that I should be told before I took the mirror away.

I left your premises believing all was in order and expecting to open up the package to find a freshly coated, pristine, hilux mirror surface. I’ll leave you to imagine how I felt having spent over £250 of my hard earned cash to receive, without warning, a significantly marked mirror.

I also notice that your competitors in the coating field only make a charge when the work has been satisfactorily completed rather than in advance of carrying it out. I’m sure it’s not the case but you can see how your customers might think that such a policy is a way to ensure any lack of customer service does little to affect your revenue stream.

I look forward to your response. My good friends on the forum are also waiting to hear with baited breath.

Your faithfully

[adamsp123]

Haitch,

Reckon that was spot on!

looking forward to the response

[crepitis]

You tell 'em Haitch , fingers crossed you get a satisfactory response.

[haitch]

Well here it is...

Hello Paul,

When we receive mirrors from customers for re-coating they come to us in a

tremendous amount of variations of condition. From almost new condition to

some which have virtually no reflective coating remaining and obviously

badly corroded.

At that point it is impossible to know exactly what the surface of the glass

is like in terms of corrosion except the really bad and obvious ones..

The mirrors are first of all soaked in various chemical baths to remove the

old coatings and then inspected by a high intensity halogen light source to

ensure we have removed all the old coating. At this stage if the surface are

obviously badly blemished we usually contact the customer to suggest that it

might not be worthwhile re-coating the mirror due to the reflectance loss

when a new coating is applied, compared with a near perfect glass surface.

Virtually every mirror we receive for re-coating has blemishes to some

degree which have occurred during its life, some minor and some major.

Customers are aware of the overall surface of the mirror's reflective

coating when the mirror is being delivered to us. As such, we expect them to

accept that until the mirror is re-coated it is impossible to give a

'report' as to the finished reflectivity of the surface.

Where a small amount of blemishes are evident, as in your case, we do not

contact the customer because it is virtually impossible to describe the

blemishes and would probably give a false impression of the surface defects

as description of these points is incredibly difficult.

Coating will only follow exactly the surface it is applied to. It cannot

cover up any blemishes in the glass it is being applied to because it is, in

physical terms, very, very thin. Any irregularities in the glass, regardless

of how small or insignificant, will become more obvious due to the higher

reflectivity.

If after removing the old coating we think that any blemishes are going to

significantly interfere with the mirror's performance we contact the

customer and ask them as to whether they want us to continue. If the mirror

looks 'acceptable', bearing in mind as I said earlier, it is impossible to

see the full effect of the blemishes until it is re-coated, we go ahead and

re-coat the mirror.

The high quality coating of a mirror will in no way make a damaged surface,

pristine, it is impossible without re-polishing and, in some cases,

re-grinding first.

Your mirror received the same coating and went through the same processes as

the highest quality optics which are fitted in our telescopes, the only

difference is in the physical surface quality of the glass.

I hope this explanation gives you an insight as to the effect of coating

mirrors which have very obvious faults and, those which have faults but are

relatively insignificant in terms of performance.

I sincerely hope that if you decide to advise any newsgroups of this

communication that you ensure that you post the whole of my reply and not be

selective in any way which may put a somewhat incorrect slant on my

explanation.

Regards

Barry

[haitch]

And my response...

Barry,

Thanks for your explanation, however it would have been nice to have had this information when I collected the mirror rather than after asking questions the day after getting it back. You do mention giving a 'report' but this is the first I have heard from you on this.

When I delivered the mirrors by hand it was fairly obvious that the old coatings were in poor condition. At this point, as a lay person, I had no idea that there might also be corrosion or even that glass could corrode under these circumstances. It would have been good if the possibility had been mentioned then.

I still feel it is very poor customer service that I only discovered the blemishes for myself when I unwrapped the mirror. I would have thought a short report (as you yourself mention) explaining what you encountered and why you took the course of action you did would be helpful, if not essential.

Could you also confirm whether the corrosion is degenerative and is likely to continue to worsen or if recoating is sufficient to prevent further deterioration at least until the coatings deteriorate again?

I have posted your response in full (as I always intended)

[beetlejuice]

Have you spoken to OO yet? I think you should. Don't email them, phone them. I'd have been straight on the blower as soon as I opened the package. Be polite but firm (ranting gets you nowhere). All this public spleen venting is not the way to make friends and influence people. That comes if you don't get satisfaction!

[TheThing]

...Because of my background and experience I believe I have a right to comment...

Everyone has the right to comment. It is a public forum, after all.

OO are notouriously bad with their quality control and customer service, which has been commented on in many threads before. On the plus, those who actually own items from them appear to be able to overlook these problems due to the excellent optics.

Suffice to say that were they to deal with customers in a more caring manner, they would probably be a world class company, able to contend with the 'big hitters' like Celestron and Meade.

Their products do always look very nice in magazine ads and on the web, but at the back of mind tales like this keep nagging away.

[barkis]

It's nonsense to say you can't tell what the surface will be like.

Once they have removed old coatings, and prepared the surface for re aluminising, the scars of corrosion would have been glaringly obvious.

Flaws of the nature displayed in your pictures would have been apparent to an inspection, and the procedure halted pending a decision to proceed. That decision should have been yours.

An explanation of the likely outcome should also have been made clear to you.

I would have been blumming livid getting that back in that condition.

Ron.

[adamsp123]

Have you spoken to OO yet? I think you should. Don't email them, phone them. I'd have been straight on the blower as soon as I opened the package. Be polite but firm (ranting gets you nowhere). All this public spleen venting is not the way to make friends and influence people. That comes if you don't get satisfaction!

I think you need to read the whole thread, Haitch had spoken to them and wanted views of other people and rightly so IMO.

I think he has been quite tolerant, would have been in the Barkis school of miffedness myself.

[haitch]

I think you need to read the whole thread, Haitch had spoken to them and wanted views of other people and rightly so IMO.

I think he has been quite tolerant, would have been in the Barkis school of miffedness myself.

I just wanted to be sure I'm right in anything I say to them. I've never had a mirror recoated before and I didn't know whether to expect imperfections.

It has been confirmed that the marks are not major flaws that would affect viewing so that does fit in with OOs policy of continuing with the process as stated in their response.

What I am most unhappy about (apart from having a flawed mirror of course) is that I was not aware of their policy beforehand or even afterwards until I complained.

Given the relatively minor, I am told, nature of the flaws I probably would have proceeded with recoating as I am not in a position to buy a new mirror (although perhaps not spending the extra on having Hilux which would have saved me a little over £100).

[barkis]

Haitch, I have ground polished and figured several mirrors ranging from 4" to a WIP one of 16". I always strived to get perfection, but I was not always successful. I had two or three which had minor scratches, due to picking up a bit of dust during figuring.They look quite minor, except when viewed with a high power eyepiece, then they show up like the Grand Canyon.

I would sometimes revert back to fine grinding to remove them, as polishing will not take them out. Other times, I decided to leave them, as they would not affect the performance at all. It depended on my mood. I would never sell a mirror knowing it had a scratch.If I did, the buyer was always made aware of it, and the fact it was harmless, except for ones pride. The Objective of a telescope is the Heart and soul of the instrument. Lets face it, without it, there is no instrument. Most of the outlay is tied up in that lens/mirror, and therefore it should be as perfect as it is possible to make it.

Even a lay person would view that one with horror, it looks bad.

and when that mirror is back in the scope, it is always going to be on your mind that it isn't perfect, and I think that knowledge will give you a certain sadness.

I think I have said enough on this matter. Of course you must decide what it is you want to do.

If I was in charge at OO, I would be offering a refund, I would not want that on my CV. I still say that with due care and dilligence, that result was predictable, and you should have been informed to that effect.

Ron.

[johninderby]

I see that the mirror in question was only recoated and was not polished, so any existing surface defects would still be there.

I think that there's a lesson here for anyone thinking of having a mirror recoated by any company. Ask for a condition report on the mirror's surface after the old coating has been removed to see if it needs repolishing or if just recoating will be sufficient.

John

[haitch]

I see that the mirror in question was only recoated and was not polished, so any existing surface defects would still be there.

I think that there's a lesson here for anyone thinking of having a mirror recoated by any company. Ask for a condition report on the mirror's surface after the old coating has been removed to see if it needs repolishing or if just recoating will be sufficient.

John

Isn't repolishing a mirror an expensive process?

[johninderby]

Surface polishing is about a £250.00 process for say a 14" to 16" mirror and of course less for something smaller.

That's not for regrinding a mirror as that can get quite expensive, and you'd proably be better off just buying a new mirror.

John

[haitch]

Surface polishing is about a £250.00 process for say a 14" to 16" mirror and of course less for something smaller.

That's not for regrinding a mirror as that can get quite expensive, and you'd proably be better off just buying a new mirror.

John

Do you think that would that have been sufficient to refinish after corrosion? Mind you can't say I had another £250 lying round.

Maybe something to think about next time it's due...now how long are these Hilux coatings supposed to last? Doh!

[johninderby]

It would all depend how deep the defects run. Shallow ones should polish out with perhaps a few small ones left. I hear that the Hilux coatings should last about 25 years.

When I spoke to OO about having a Lightbridge 16" mirror redone last year they quoted about £500.00 for polishing, recoating and Hilux. And while it would improve the performance of the LB mirror a lot there would probably be a few small defects left. I ended up selling the LB and getting a 14" OO dob 1/10PV 99 Strehl and have never regretted it.

It would be intersting to see how the mirror does perform though even with the defects. I suspect it will be much better than you expect.

Anyway here's a photo of my OO 14"mirror.

John

[beetlejuice]

I think you need to read the whole thread, Haitch had spoken to them and wanted views of other people and rightly so IMO.

I think he has been quite tolerant, would have been in the Barkis school of miffedness myself.

As a business owner, I would hate it if my clients started airing their grievences in public before I had the chance to make things right or offer reasonable explanation. Nobody is perfect - we all make mistakes. I'm not defending OO, but common courtesy implies allowing the supplier the opportunity to make amends and explore all reasonable avenues of reconciliation before going public.

[haitch]

As a business owner, I would hate it if my clients started airing their grievences in public before I had the chance to make things right or offer reasonable explanation. Nobody is perfect - we all make mistakes. I'm not defending OO, but common courtesy implies allowing the supplier the opportunity to make amends and explore all reasonable avenues of reconciliation before going public.

For the record I am a business owner too.

I think you'll find I was merely seeking indepent views on what level of service I should expect and trying to find out more about corrosion of coatings (I did phone OO 1st but the response didn't totally reassure me. I obviously felt I had received an inadequate service but as telescope mirror coatings are not something I deal in every day I wanted to see whether I was over reacting.

I think I have been pretty factual and have posted OOs response in full.

I'm sure there are a lot of business owners who would like their customers to keep their grievances to themselves but that's not the way of the World any more. In any case why shouldn't the customer expect things to be right 1st time every time?

[haitch]

This is the reply to my 2nd e-mail...

Dear Paul,

The coating department didn't feel it necessary to contact you, Barry has previously said. 'Where a small amount of blemishes are evident, as in your case, we do not contact the customer because it is virtually impossible to describe the blemishes and would probably give a false impression of the surface defects as description of these points is incredibly difficult'

The marks are in the glass and can only be removed by re-grinding and polishing your mirror again. If you look after the optics the etching of the surface should not grow or worsen. Any sort of dampness or moisture in and around the optics will have an ill effect on the coating.

We do on very rare occasions have a customer like yourself questioning the coating, If you feel the optic needs coating in the coming months again I will coat your optics free of charge.

Regards

John