How to 'Polar align' when Polaris is only 7°above the horizon?

[Nikolai De Silva]

Hi, I'm Nikolai De Silva from Sri Lanka and a beginner to this forum. I have a Sky-watcher P 130/650 Starquest and have a problem with Polar Aligning it. 

As it is said, the Telescope should be aligned with Polaris. The problem is, Polaris is only 7° above the horizon here! This can't be aligned. When I do so, the counterweight knocks the tripod. What should I do for this? 

Hoping for help!

Thank you.

Nikolai

[M40]

 I  remember reading somewhere that there is something called drift alignment using PHD2 that will help with this. I  did a quick search and quite a few topics popped up.

All the best 

[LandyJon]

I think you need a pillar extension between the tripod and mount head.  Should lift the weights up enough to clear the tripod legs.

Perhaps someone from a similar latitude will come on with a more experienced opinion, but that'd be my guess.

Good luck 

[Carbon Brush]

Yes as @LandyJon says, a pillar extension to your tripod.
Alternatively just use a pillar.
Pillars with legs seem to have fallen out of favour these days.
I have some old pillars  - but it is a long way to collect😁
Might be easier to get something fabricated locally.

[LandyJon]

I've just thought, you haven't got the tripod oriented with a single leg sticking out at the weight bar, there's obviously slightly more clearance if the weight bar is in line with a flat (between 2 legs).

 

[Elp]

You'll still have an issue when you rotate in RA if you did that.

Another option is to source, or make your own smaller diameter counterweights, or a longer counterweight bar, but the best option is a pier, also look up Todmordon pier materials of which should be readily available to you locally.

Edited October 30, 2023 by Elp

[ollypenrice]

I disagree with most of the advice above.  7 degrees above the horizon is not going to work for any kind of Polaris-dependent PA routine. You'd need a fantastically low horizon and minimal light pollution to see it at all. No design of pier is going to get around this, so forget it. You can Polar align by other means, quite successfully.

Use a compass, corrected for your magnetic deviation, to point the mount north. https://www.magnetic-declination.com/Sri Lanka/Colombo/1481546.html#:~:text=Answer%3A -2.09° (-2°5')  For the purposes of this method, just remember that your compass will be pointing about 2 degrees west of north. That will do. Even just using the compass's magnetic north without correction will do. That gets you in the rough position for Azimuth. Don't use the compass close to anything magnetic, like electronic devices.

The rough position for altitude is going to mean that your polar axis is only going to be about 7 degrees off horizontal. If this is a problem for your mount, don't hesitate to tilt your tripod to make it easier. The base of the mount does not need to be horizontal. Many will say it needs to be horizontal but they are mistaken. I would make a physical wedge with a 7 degree angle and place one side on the the mount and put a spirit level on the other for quick repeatability.

Once the mount is in this position, just use the drift method. It has various versions.  This is a very intelligent one for imagers. https://www.cloudynights.com/articles/cat/articles/darv-drift-alignment-by-robert-vice-r2760

Forget Polaris. It will not help you.

Olly

[tomato]

But it is worth persevering with as unless I’m mistaken most objects in the sky will be visible to you at some point in the year, but not Polaris!

[LandyJon]

54 minutes ago, ollypenrice said:

I disagree with most of the advice above.  7 degrees above the horizon is not going to work for any kind of Polaris-dependent PA routine. You'd need a fantastically low horizon and minimal light pollution to see it at all. No design of pier is going to get around this, so forget it. You can Polar align by other means, quite successfully.

...

Forget Polaris. It will not help you.

Olly

I think we were all working around this

7 hours ago, Nikolai De Silva said:

When I do so, the counterweight knocks the tripod.

Which implies they can see polaris.

I agree the tripod doesn't need to be level, the only important factor is the polar axis is aligned, but I wouldn't recommend anyone to hang expensive optical equipment off an unstable platform.

How about you try tilting your rig to get 7° off horizontal without weights clashing tripod and post us a pic.

Nicolai, until you see olly proving this possible with his own rig, I'd stick to a stable platform and try to raise the mount head from the legs.

Not for your mount or budget necessarily but a pillar tripod of this type will give you more clearance for the weight bar.

[Franklin]

If it's just for visual astronomy and considering the set up it most likely is, an alternative would be to set the mount in the opposite direction and point the polar axis towards the zenith which will them allow you to use your set up in alt-azimuth mode, with the scope and counterweight bar horizontal but then you may have problems with the scope hitting the tripod legs rather than the counterweight when in EQ mode. It would definitely be useable like this, just you may have to reposition the tripod to avoid contact between scope and tripod legs whilst observing but moving the tripod around whilst in alt-az mode is of no consequence.

I think alt-az mode would work and be fine for a bit of casual stargazing.

 

Edited October 30, 2023 by Franklin

[ollypenrice]

8 minutes ago, LandyJon said:

 

Nicolai, until you see olly proving this possible with his own rig, I'd stick to a stable platform and try to raise the mount head from the legs.

 

 

For some time I used a Takahashi EM200 mount which has no facility whatever for leveling the top of the tripod. EM200 users at latitudes outside the fairly limited adjustment range of the mount routinely tilt their tripods to reach alignment. 

I'm assuming a reasonable degree of intelligence in not overdoing this. Within reason it is a perfectly normal thing to do to make your mount's adjusters more comfortable. If they are OK when horizontal, then fine.

You can also expect Polaris, if visible this close to the horizon, to be displaced visually by about half a degree by atmospheric refraction.

I have observed on the equator and would not make Polaris my primary means of alignment if I lived there.

Olly

[Nikolai De Silva]

8 hours ago, LandyJon said:

Which implies they can see polaris.

I agree the tripod doesn't need to be level, the only important factor is the polar axis is aligned, but I wouldn't recommend anyone to hang expensive optical equipment off an unstable platform.

How about you try tilting your rig to get 7° off horizontal without weights clashing tripod and post us a pic.

Here I have attached how it is when Polar aligned. I tried going through the Internet, but didn't see a solution.

Nikolai

[Nikolai De Silva]

9 hours ago, Franklin said:

If it's just for visual astronomy and considering the set up it most likely is, an alternative would be to set the mount in the opposite direction and point the polar axis towards the zenith which will them allow you to use your set up in alt-azimuth mode

Yes this is for visual astronomy. That was what I thought. I saw on the internet that the Sky-watcher Avant mount is able to be used as an Eq mount and also as an Alt-Az mount. The Avant mount is just like the Starquest mount and therefore I tried to make this horizontal. But the latitude adjusting knob is too short to make this fully horizontal. 

Now what I think is, it is better to track stars using the red dot finder and the star hopping method.

Thanks

Nikolai

Edited October 31, 2023 by Nikolai De Silva

[Franklin]

2 hours ago, Nikolai De Silva said:

But the latitude adjusting knob is too short to make this fully horizontal. 

Is it not possible to loosen the large locking bolt at the side, get the mount vertical, then tighten back up? This would send the mount beyond the latitude bolt, being too short but you could fit a wedge of some sort. Or get a longer bolt for the latitude adjustment.

[Nikolai De Silva]

1 hour ago, Franklin said:

Is it not possible to loosen the large locking bolt at the side, get the mount vertical, then tighten back up?

The mount don't stay when I loosen and locked the large locking bolt.

[LandyJon]

5 hours ago, Nikolai De Silva said:

Here I have attached how it is when Polar aligned. I tried going through the Internet, but didn't see a solution.

Tilting the tripod isn't going to get you where you need to be

Those tripod legs will be too vertical for my liking with all of your weight sitting way out in front of it.

All it really needs is an extension bar in here

With the mount head attached on the green end and some added weight to compensate for the shift in centre of gravity, not necessarily hanging as drawn but this end should be weighty. Perhaps a local fabricator could make something.  You'd think thered be an off the shelf solution for you but other than spending a fortune on a bigger mount.

There's these £30 pier extensions on FLO but I'm unsure they'd fit yours, some of the comments imply other mounts but none are the ones you've mentioned, but at 21 cm I think your weights would still clash the top of the tripod there.  More weight higher up the bar could then work, but for the cost I'd look to fabricate a bar as above.

There must be other astronomers at your latitude, surely someone has a better solution !?

 

[Nikolai De Silva]

5 hours ago, LandyJon said:

With the mount head attached on the green end and some added weight to compensate for the shift in centre of gravity, not necessarily hanging as drawn but this end should be weighty. Perhaps a local fabricator could make something.  You'd think thered be an off the shelf solution for you but other than spending a fortune on a bigger mount.

Thank you very much for your support!

I can understand what you are saying.  I'll think for a solution.

5 hours ago, LandyJon said:

There must be other astronomers at your latitude, surely someone has a better solution !?

We don't have astronomers here to talk with like y'all and still astronomy is not familiar among people here! 😐 Even we don't have a subject relating to astronomy in our education. 

To tell you, I asked for a Barlow lens from shops in Colombo and they told "there are none, and it's no use to keep stocks!"

Edited October 31, 2023 by Nikolai De Silva

[JeremyS]

I lived in Singapore for a few years and that is even closer to the EQ (no chance at all of finding Polaris). I had a Vixen GPDX German equatorial, as did many friends. I used a pillar/pier to avoid the counterweight hitting a tripod leg. I then aligned N using a compass and offset. I used a Skysensor GOTO controller and it found objects perfectly 

[LandyJon]

1 hour ago, Nikolai De Silva said:

Thank you very much for your support!

I can understand what you are saying.  I'll think for a solution.

We don't have astronomers here to talk with like y'all and still astronomy is not familiar among people here! 😐 Even we don't have a subject relating to astronomy in our education. 

To tell you, I asked for a Barlow lens from shops in Colombo and they told "there are none, and it's no use to keep stocks!"

I hope you figure something out.

I just had a quick Google for 'equatorial mount low latitude adapter' ... not a lot useful, some expensive William Optics adapter that says 7° to 20° but you'd be on the limit of that and some Avalon £4000 mount that goes to 0° but that unrealistic.

I did find a thread

https://www.singastro.org/forum2/viewtopic.php?t=4597

They're at 1.35° lat and talk about making an adapter and link a photo, but it fails to load, you could try joining that forum to message people, see if you can find out how they do it.

You've got an advantage on them if you can see polaris, but there's obviously a community there that could offer alternative solutions.

Best of luck, let us know how you get on.

[Nikolai De Silva]

17 hours ago, LandyJon said:

I did find a thread

https://www.singastro.org/forum2/viewtopic.php?t=4597

They're at 1.35° lat and talk about making an adapter and link a photo, but it fails to load, you could try joining that forum to message people, see if you can find out how they do it.

I wrote to that forum asking about that. Awaiting for a response!

Thank you very much!

Nikolai

[wesdon1]

On 31/10/2023 at 05:29, Nikolai De Silva said:

Yes this is for visual astronomy. That was what I thought. I saw on the internet that the Sky-watcher Avant mount is able to be used as an Eq mount and also as an Alt-Az mount. The Avant mount is just like the Starquest mount and therefore I tried to make this horizontal. But the latitude adjusting knob is too short to make this fully horizontal. 

Now what I think is, it is better to track stars using the red dot finder and the star hopping method.

Thanks

Nikolai

@Nikolai De Silva Hi Nikolai. I would suggest you point the polar axis straight up at the zenith ( above your head ) and use the scope in an Alt/Azimuth configuration. After all, you are doing visual astro, so perfect polar alignment really isn't necessary. You have a fantastic little 'scope there and you will see a lot of cool objects with it ( local light pollution allowing, ofcourse! ) 

Just use it as an alt/az setup and start finding your way around the sky, if possible using a mobile phone planetarium app to help you find things.

Best of luck my friend!

Wes, England

[Nikolai De Silva]

On 31/10/2023 at 22:51, LandyJon said:

I did find a thread

https://www.singastro.org/forum2/viewtopic.php?t=4597

They're at 1.35° lat and talk about making an adapter and link a photo, but it fails to load, you could try joining that forum to message people, see if you can find out how they do it.

Hi Landy! I got a reply from them. They have told the same thing as earlier.

I think it's good for me to do like I did so far, till I'm getting a offset or a pier. Because this is for visual astronomy.

Really, I thank you a lot for you kind replies and for the time you spent on this! Respect!

Thanks again and have a great time!

Nikolai.

[Nikolai De Silva]

On 01/11/2023 at 21:29, wesdon1 said:

 Hi Nikolai. I would suggest you point the polar axis straight up at the zenith ( above your head ) and use the scope in an Alt/Azimuth configuration. After all, you are doing visual astro, so perfect polar alignment really isn't necessary. You have a fantastic little 'scope there and you will see a lot of cool objects with it ( local light pollution allowing, ofcourse! ) 

Just use it as an alt/az setup and start finding your way around the sky, if possible using a mobile phone planetarium app to help you find things.

Best of luck my friend!

Wes, England

Thank you for your advice! That is what I thought. Really I can point at just by the eye's view. 

I have the Stellarium and it's really easy!

Best luck you too!

Nikolai.

[LandyJon]

2 hours ago, Nikolai De Silva said:

Hi Landy! I got a reply from them. They have told the same thing as earlier.

I think it's good for me to do like I did so far, till I'm getting a offset or a pier. Because this is for visual astronomy.

Really, I thank you a lot for you kind replies and for the time you spent on this! Respect!

Thanks again and have a great time!

Nikolai.

You're more than welcome, I like problem solving.

You said earlier your bolt was too short to push the head all the way horizontal and the clamp wouldn't tighten down to hold it.  Is there not any tightening that can be done on this side ...

So the other side clamps down tighter.

Otherwise I guess using it as close to horizontal as it'll go and just get used to the way it moves with the slow motion controls to keep your target centred until you can find (or get made) a cheap pillar type tripod.

Best of luck, enjoy the hobby.

[Nikolai De Silva]

On 03/11/2023 at 22:29, LandyJon said:

Is there not any tightening that can be done on this side ...

I tightened the Allen bolt there. But, no use, it is not tightening. 

 

On 03/11/2023 at 22:29, LandyJon said:

Otherwise I guess using it as close to horizontal as it'll go and just get used to the way it moves with the slow motion controls to keep your target centred until you can find (or get made) a cheap pillar type tripod.

That is what I should do. I'll surely find for a solution by the time. 

Thanks again!

Best luck!

Nikolai