Venus in Daylight

[mikeDnight]

 Unfortunately for me I have a high woodland to my south west and its on a hill, so Venus is near impossible to observe as the Sun sets. Tonight I decided to catch it while it was still in broad daylight just as the Sun hides itself behind the trees. I set the FS128 up in the observatory and focused my 30mm Ultra Flat on a passing aircraft then swept the sky in RA until the planet came into view. Exchanging the 30mm for the Maxbright binoviewer, 25mm Parks Gold, and 2X Ultima SV barlow, Venus presented a beautifully sharp crescent in a steady, almost turbulent free sky. The cusps were strongly curved, while the dusky clouds along the terminator were strikingly obvious, more so in the south. I made a sketch illustrating what I saw in the eyepiece without the use of coloured filters.

 As Venus nears the Sun I suspect more of us will be trying for daylight observations as we follow it until it shows the finest slither of a crescent/almost annulus phase. It's worth trying in daylight if you haven't already done so. Small apertures seem to be quite successful at revealing the wraith-like clouds, possibly because they aren't blinded by the planet's brilliance.

[Kon]

How? Seriously! Your drawn features are very similar to my capture from last night.

I have managed to see some features during daylight but not in this kind of detail.

[John]

8 minutes ago, Kon said:

How? Seriously! Your drawn features are very similar to my capture from last night.

I have managed to see some features during daylight but not in this kind of detail.

I think the answer might be:

- Very fine scope

- Both eyes being used

- Lots and lots of experience

 

[IB20]

Not quite daylight but I have just been observing Venus in the lightest conditions this season and for the first time I could see irregular shaped darker areas close to the terminator. Not too dissimilar to Mike’s sketch where darker patches extended from the terminator region into the remaining lit part of the planetary disc. Amazing! 

[MalcolmM]

'Daylight' for me was 20.00 a couple of weeks ago and Venus took quite a bit of tracking down, so to catch it at 18.20 I reckon is pretty impressive. @mikeDnight, I really enjoy your posts. For me, they are the 'gold' standard of what is possible in an amateur scope. They help validate my own observations. For example, the bright edge round the limb in your sketch; I have seen that on a number of occasions. 

My only issue is you've upped your aperture beyond any of my refractors 🙂so your gold standard is now beyond my reach

Thanks for posting, 

Malcolm 

[mikeDnight]

8 hours ago, MalcolmM said:

'Daylight' for me was 20.00 a couple of weeks ago and Venus took quite a bit of tracking down, so to catch it at 18.20 I reckon is pretty impressive. @mikeDnight, I really enjoy your posts. For me, they are the 'gold' standard of what is possible in an amateur scope. They help validate my own observations. For example, the bright edge round the limb in your sketch; I have seen that on a number of occasions. 

My only issue is you've upped your aperture beyond any of my refractors 🙂so your gold standard is now beyond my reach

Thanks for posting, 

Malcolm 

 Thankyou for your kind comments Malcom. It really is nice to learn my posts have been appreciated as well as being useful to you.   I always use Universal Time/GMT when recording time, so the Venus observation would have been 7.20pm British summer time, so not too different to you if you used BST. It's relatively easy to find Venus in a finderscope or by using a low power eyepiece in your scope if you're certain it's at focus, and you've a rough idea how far the planet is from the Sun. I won't be parting with the 100mm and will still post observations made using it, so you can still have your 4" fix.   The DZ is still my favourite scope despite its smaller aperture. 💕

[Paz]

I've had some great views recently in daylight, and have seen faint cloud features for the first time recently, but I have to say finding it in daylight is really tough despite knowing its altitude and bearing, and I've had quite a few fails on that front.

[John]

I've just ( at 19:10 hrs BST) found Venus this evening with my ED120 refractor. The "finding" was done with Stellarium to get the bearing, a compass and then some steady and methodical sweeping with a 9x50 RACI. Venus showed it's phase clearly in the latter and stood out well against what is quite a pale blue sky. The seeing seems a little unsteady though so I doubt that I'll see much in the way of features.

 

Edited June 15, 2023 by John

[MalcolmM]

I hope it's not bad etiquette @mikeDnight to post my own observation here!

I got it tonight at 7.30 with the help of binoculars and a wide angle eyepiece. I think I saw cloud detail - I'd love to compare my sketches with another of @Kon's excellent images!

It may have been an optical illusion but I thought I saw a couple of dark bands in the clouds using the 4mm TOE. Definite shape to what I was seeing (or thought I was seeing ) with the 4 and the 2.5. I have exaggerated the shading slightly. 

Broken wrist is limiting me to a small scope but my new Extender-Q (thanks for the encouragement @JeremyS and @mikeDnight) is giving the FS60CB a bit of extra punch without having to put the Ext CQ in.

Malcolm 

[JeremyS]

3 minutes ago, MalcolmM said:

I hope it's not bad etiquette @mikeDnight to post my own observation here!

I got it tonight at 7.30 with the help of binoculars and a wide angle eyepiece. I think I saw cloud detail - I'd love to compare my sketches with another of @Kon's excellent images!

It may have been an optical illusion but I thought I saw a couple of dark bands in the clouds using the 4mm TOE. Definite shape to what I was seeing (or thought I was seeing ) with the 4 and the 2.5. I have exaggerated the shading slightly. 

Broken wrist is limiting me to a small scope but my new Extender-Q (thanks for the encouragement @JeremyS and @mikeDnight) is giving the FS60CB a bit of extra punch without having to put the Ext CQ in.

Malcolm 

Nice job Malcolm. My daughter has recently broken her wrist  too. Hope you are better soon. Perhaps this is one of the things the Tak 60 is for 🤔😊

[John]

Interesting sketches Malcolm 🙂

I may have seen some vague markings with my ED120, also with the TOE 4mm and later the Pentax XW 5mm (seeing was not so good here) but nothing that I could capture using a pencil and paper !

 

[IB20]

1 hour ago, MalcolmM said:

I hope it's not bad etiquette @mikeDnight to post my own observation here!

I got it tonight at 7.30 with the help of binoculars and a wide angle eyepiece. I think I saw cloud detail - I'd love to compare my sketches with another of @Kon's excellent images!

It may have been an optical illusion but I thought I saw a couple of dark bands in the clouds using the 4mm TOE. Definite shape to what I was seeing (or thought I was seeing ) with the 4 and the 2.5. I have exaggerated the shading slightly. 

Broken wrist is limiting me to a small scope but my new Extender-Q (thanks for the encouragement @JeremyS and @mikeDnight) is giving the FS60CB a bit of extra punch without having to put the Ext CQ in.

Malcolm 

Wonderful sketches Malcolm. Pretty much exactly what I saw last night with the 4mm TOE. Nice to have my observations corroborated! 

[Kon]

Excellent observation Malcolm. Your drawing looks great and I think you have captured real features. I have stopped imaging Venus in UV as of last week since it is hard to pull fine details, but after you tagged me on this post I was really intrigued because you guys amaze me that you can get such details visually. As John said excellent scopes and experience. So, I got my Dob out and this is what I got....not far off your sketch! I imaged it at 2220pm so a few hours so you can take rotation of clouds into account. But i do see similar features to your drawing. The quality is awful (Venus is too low for good imaging and I usually do it at daytime) but you get the general picture. My hat off to you sir!  

 

[MalcolmM]

32 minutes ago, Kon said:

Excellent observation Malcolm. Your drawing looks great and I think you have captured real features. I have stopped imaging Venus in UV as of last week since it is hard to pull fine details, but after you tagged me on this post I was really intrigued because you guys amaze me that you can get such details visually. As John said excellent scopes and experience. So, I got my Dob out and this is what I got....not far off your sketch! I imaged it at 2220pm so a few hours so you can take rotation of clouds into account. But i do see similar features to your drawing. The quality is awful (Venus is too low for good imaging and I usually do it at daytime) but you get the general picture. My hat off to you sir!  

 

That's brilliant thanks @Kon.

I'm genuinely never really sure with Venus, but your image here, and another one from a couple of weeks ago, seem to show enough correlation with what I thought I saw that I think I saw something 🙂 That and some nice corroboration too from @IB20, many thanks!

Thanks again for putting in the time and effort and taking that image - really appreciate it.

Malcolm 

[MalcolmM]

2 hours ago, John said:

Interesting sketches Malcolm 🙂

I may have seen some vague markings with my ED120, also with the TOE 4mm and later the Pentax XW 5mm (seeing was not so good here) but nothing that I could capture using a pencil and paper !

 

I wonder is the big aperture of the 120 collecting too much light? Is it possible to have too much light?

Malcolm 

[John]

1 minute ago, MalcolmM said:

I wonder is the big aperture of the 120 collecting too much light? Is it possible to have too much light?

Malcolm 

I've wondered that with Venus at times as well Malcolm. 

I'll try my little 70mm ED on it again very soon and see how that does. 

I also think some peoples eyes are better suited to picking up these very subtle contrast variations. Maybe my observing strengths lie elsewhere 🙂

Nice sketches and observations though. Prompted me to have another good look at our "sister" planet, which is nice on a warm evening 🙂

[mikeDnight]

2 hours ago, MalcolmM said:

I hope it's not bad etiquette @mikeDnight to post my own observation here!

I got it tonight at 7.30 with the help of binoculars and a wide angle eyepiece. I think I saw cloud detail - I'd love to compare my sketches with another of @Kon's excellent images!

It may have been an optical illusion but I thought I saw a couple of dark bands in the clouds using the 4mm TOE. Definite shape to what I was seeing (or thought I was seeing ) with the 4 and the 2.5. I have exaggerated the shading slightly. 

Broken wrist is limiting me to a small scope but my new Extender-Q (thanks for the encouragement @JeremyS and @mikeDnight) is giving the FS60CB a bit of extra punch without having to put the Ext CQ in.

Malcolm 

 It's not bad etiquette Malcom. The more contributors the merrier as far as I'm concerned, and to see your observations and Kon's image really brings the thread to life. Please feel free to gatecrash anytime! 

[MalcolmM]

Another thing I've noticed when observing Venus against a bright sky is that it looks a slightly dirty yellow colour. Is this correct?

It is a lovely sight too when seen as a tiny little crescent in a wide angle eyepiece!

Malcolm 

[mikeDnight]

17 minutes ago, MalcolmM said:

I wonder is the big aperture of the 120 collecting too much light? Is it possible to have too much light?

Malcolm 

 There could be something in that theory. I know its not a massive aperture jump, but I do find the cloud detail a bit easier to detect when using my 100mm. When I observed Venus through the FS128 a few weeks ago, it struck me that the cloud detail was not so obvious. In my FC100DZ, although still subtle, it if easier to discern. Colour filters would help on larger apertures!

[mikeDnight]

16 minutes ago, MalcolmM said:

Another thing I've noticed when observing Venus against a bright sky is that it looks a slightly dirty yellow colour. Is this correct?

It is a lovely sight too when seen as a tiny little crescent in a wide angle eyepiece!

Malcolm 

Some eyepieces such as Naglers can add a yellow colour tone, but it could also be atmospheric. At times I've seen Venus display a nicotine yellow tinge when using my FC100DC, then on another night while using the same scope it's appeared silver white.  It has so far appeared white in my DZ, and in my FS128.

[John]

1 hour ago, mikeDnight said:

Some eyepieces such as Naglers can add a yellow colour tone, but it could also be atmospheric. At times I've seen Venus display a nicotine yellow tinge when using my FC100DC, then on another night while using the same scope it's appeared silver white.  It has so far appeared white in my DZ, and in my FS128.

Venus looked fairly "white" this evening with my ED120. I used Tak TOE 4mm and Pentax XW 5mm eyepieces. 

 

 

[josefk]

I hadn’t noticed any kind of colour cast with any eyepieces till I used them against a bright blue sky then for some it became a little evident. Subtle but noticeable. Tak 5mm LE and 4mm TOE eyepieces definitely clear and neutral though - they pass the china blue sky and Venus white test without modifying the hues.

[Paz]

12 hours ago, MalcolmM said:

I hope it's not bad etiquette @mikeDnight to post my own observation here!

I got it tonight at 7.30 with the help of binoculars and a wide angle eyepiece. I think I saw cloud detail - I'd love to compare my sketches with another of @Kon's excellent images!

It may have been an optical illusion but I thought I saw a couple of dark bands in the clouds using the 4mm TOE. Definite shape to what I was seeing (or thought I was seeing ) with the 4 and the 2.5. I have exaggerated the shading slightly. 

Broken wrist is limiting me to a small scope but my new Extender-Q (thanks for the encouragement @JeremyS and @mikeDnight) is giving the FS60CB a bit of extra punch without having to put the Ext CQ in.

Malcolm 

 

That sketch is very useful to see, I did a first ever sketch of Venus a few weeks ago and although the patterns were different the look of it is very similar, but exaggerated just like your sketch. The actual contrast in the features was much less than I sketched, and on the boundaries of what was detectable to me, so my sketch was more schematic than realistic.

[JeremyS]

9 hours ago, MalcolmM said:

I wonder is the big aperture of the 120 collecting too much light? Is it possible to have too much light?

Malcolm 

I don’t think so Malcolm, though you could always try a filter. Paul Abel uses an 8-inch telescope, often unfiltered: https://britastro.org/observations/observation.php?id=20230614_160349_2da60f868f446e37

Edited June 16, 2023 by JeremyS

[Paz]

On 14/06/2023 at 19:42, John said:

I think the answer might be:

- Very fine scope

- Both eyes being used

- Lots and lots of experience

 

I would add one other thing potentially... good eyesight.

I've concluded over time that allowing for differences in other factors such as experience I think I do struggle to see the same detail as others especially at smaller exit pupils which are especially the case for planetary observing in small scopes. The bigger exit pupils get the closer the details that I see get to what I read others can see.