Help with different camera options for a beginner

[ollypenrice]

I'm often one of only a few people on threads like this who says, 'Don't bother with the DSLR.'   Beginning with a DSLR is not compulsory and, since CMOS is now the top technology, astro-specific CCD cameras have become remarkably cheap on the used market. You would have no trouble finding one for 500 euros and they are so much better than DSLRs, they really are.

Also, you're in Greece, where it is hot. An uncooled camera really is going to struggle where you are.

Olly

[pipnina]

21 minutes ago, Balthazar Saissore said:

The only concern I have is, if I am to buy a piece of gear like the star adventurer costing about 500€ but the a year down the line deciding to upgrade it I will be -500 off the target. The way I am thinking about the setup is, if I am going to do it I might as well do it right instead of needing to constantly upgrade.

In this case the mount has a very small load capacity which makes me concerned about using it in the future with a telescope for example meaning I'd be needing a new one, and this you end up with an old + new cost situation. Of course you could resell but that's again taking a chance that someone will want it (obviously no idea of the market for second hand gear in Europe).

But you do have a point about having things sitting in boxes for years waiting for a setup to be completed. This is why my original plan was DSLR first, mount second, telescope last, meaning everything I got would be used straight away even in a limited capacity. I really do have to find some used prices though because it's a different comparison when you compare it, 500 now and a used heq5 for 800 later for example would still be preferable than 1300 now or 1300+500.

For the power side as I've said it is a concern I'll definitely have to address since getting power in the middle of the mountains is always problematic and a power unit adds extra cost to the setup.

I like to think of it as eventually turning into a grab & go imaging setup, and a bigger setup.

If you start with the star adventurer and camera, and over 2-3 years you slowly buy the bits for a bigger setup, in the end you have your original star adventurer setup AND a big telescope setup. You can essentially work on two images at once, or only take the kit you feel like setting up with you on any given excursion.

I just feel like waiting to get the perfect setup for 3 years might just be needlessly prolonging things on a hobby you'll have spent thousands on but never participated in until those 3 years are up!

If you buy something for €500 and enjoyed it for 3 years, did you waste your money or did you invest in a good time? That's up to you. There's also resale value to consider if you do only want one setup in the future.

[pipnina]

16 minutes ago, ollypenrice said:

I'm often one of only a few people on threads like this who says, 'Don't bother with the DSLR.'   Beginning with a DSLR is not compulsory and, since CMOS is now the top technology, astro-specific CCD cameras have become remarkably cheap on the used market. You would have no trouble finding one for 500 euros and they are so much better than DSLRs, they really are.

Also, you're in Greece, where it is hot. An uncooled camera really is going to struggle where you are.

Olly

That's a very good point. The only reason I suggest a DSLR in this case is because you can't beat the €160 price point on cooled astro equipment, and since the initial budget wasn't mentioned I simply went for the cheapest setup I could conceivably want to image with (and *have* imaged with). At €500 a cooled camera would be 5/6ths of the whole setup I suggested on just the camera.

If their budget was €1000, maybe a 383l or something could be suggested but you need to consider the cost of adapters and power supply and the lens you intend to image with, whereas with a DSLR no such concerns exist as long as you're happy with the provided battery.

low cost astro is a sticky situation but I do believe a DSLR is good enough for people who are starting, at least if budget is a concern. If they have more budget our options for kit to recommend becomes much freer for things us more experienced imagers consider essential.

[Elp]

14 minutes ago, pipnina said:

time?

I'd second this. There's nothing like actual hand on experience as you'll face issues and understand how to overcome them or what to avoid in future. Too many people ooo and ahhh over decisions rather than going out and doing it, I'd understand if there's resource or time constraints, but in your case I'm guessing you're in it for long term.

You need to have a long hard think. If you want a scope and mount now rather than a camera, you might find you enjoy the visual side more (it's certainly less frustrating).

[Balthazar Saissore]

2 hours ago, M40 said:

Sorry for confusing things. My current grab and go is heq5 tripod, battery pack, azgti with wedge and dslr but you could swap the dslr for a telescope and phone camera. You could also ditch the battery pack and use internal batteries on the azgti with a traditional camera tripod but I don't think you could start on AP with much less. If you started with dslr on a tripod you would be limited to exposure length so limiting what you can achieve. There are so many options it really is all about what you want to achieve and what can you sell on or take with you on the journey. 

I see what you mean yeah, I was kind of going off of the mindset of it's better to get a few seconds with a dslr than a long exposure with a smartphone just based on the pictures I've taken with my smartphone and how much I dislike their quality but I get your point.

[Balthazar Saissore]

2 hours ago, ollypenrice said:

I'm often one of only a few people on threads like this who says, 'Don't bother with the DSLR.'   Beginning with a DSLR is not compulsory and, since CMOS is now the top technology, astro-specific CCD cameras have become remarkably cheap on the used market. You would have no trouble finding one for 500 euros and they are so much better than DSLRs, they really are.

Also, you're in Greece, where it is hot. An uncooled camera really is going to struggle where you are.

Olly

I never really considered the cooling factor as a problem as I don't really know what outside temperatures would constitute an issue, usually run about 7 months of 10C> weather here especially at night with summer reaching 30s, kinda went off thinking that should be fine. My main grind with dedicated astro cameras was mostly their fixed nature as in you can only use them with a telescope + power outlet + laptop but I've learned a lot of new information contradicting that here so I'm starting to warm up to the idea. Also felt that a DSLR was a less overwhelming piece of equipment as I've handled some before and thought I'd be better off starting with something familiar.

2 hours ago, pipnina said:

That's a very good point. The only reason I suggest a DSLR in this case is because you can't beat the €160 price point on cooled astro equipment, and since the initial budget wasn't mentioned I simply went for the cheapest setup I could conceivably want to image with (and *have* imaged with). At €500 a cooled camera would be 5/6ths of the whole setup I suggested on just the camera.

If their budget was €1000, maybe a 383l or something could be suggested but you need to consider the cost of adapters and power supply and the lens you intend to image with, whereas with a DSLR no such concerns exist as long as you're happy with the provided battery.

low cost astro is a sticky situation but I do believe a DSLR is good enough for people who are starting, at least if budget is a concern. If they have more budget our options for kit to recommend becomes much freer for things us more experienced imagers consider essential.

Yea budgeting is the biggest point really, the lower I could drop the cost of one component the more budget, and shorter wait I'd have for the next. Also I have been having trouble finding second hand markets for anything more than DSLRs meaning all my pricings come from new/retailer sites. When you compare a 280 euro  used dslr with lenses vs a 1200euro new astrocam the price gap doesn't seem that appealing but If the price point was at the 500 euro mark then it's a whole different story as realistically with the 280 dslr you'd have to factor in an astromod which would essentially take the price up to the 500s.

2 hours ago, Elp said:

I'd second this. There's nothing like actual hand on experience as you'll face issues and understand how to overcome them or what to avoid in future. Too many people ooo and ahhh over decisions rather than going out and doing it, I'd understand if there's resource or time constraints, but in your case I'm guessing you're in it for long term.

You need to have a long hard think. If you want a scope and mount now rather than a camera, you might find you enjoy the visual side more (it's certainly less frustrating).

I mean I would like to think I will continue doing this for a long time, but yea as you say resource and time constraints are a limiting factor. I just would like to be as prepared as possible before getting out there so that I don't end up frustrated and demotivated with my results. Obviously don't expect to go out and grab a masterpiece on the first try but I try to be very well informed about what to expect and what to do as to limit the risk of getting shoddy results due to equipment error. Like if I'd gone ahead and bought a dslr and then found out it gets too hot here to use one and all my pictures are fuzzy and full of noise then that would be on me for not doing better research and I'd feel bad about my choices.

I have never done anything on the visual side before really, I assumed most things are not really visible to the human eye through a telescope and kind of brushed it off as something that I wouldn't enjoy, especially since what I'm really after is those nice and long sessions on nebulae. But I guess it is also a valid consideration assuming I can find a good enough price on a starting set that wouldn't put me off target that much. I also assume that visual would need some extra adaptors and eyepiece to get working with an imaging telescope but still doable?

[Balthazar Saissore]

2 hours ago, pipnina said:

I like to think of it as eventually turning into a grab & go imaging setup, and a bigger setup.

If you start with the star adventurer and camera, and over 2-3 years you slowly buy the bits for a bigger setup, in the end you have your original star adventurer setup AND a big telescope setup. You can essentially work on two images at once, or only take the kit you feel like setting up with you on any given excursion.

I just feel like waiting to get the perfect setup for 3 years might just be needlessly prolonging things on a hobby you'll have spent thousands on but never participated in until those 3 years are up!

If you buy something for €500 and enjoyed it for 3 years, did you waste your money or did you invest in a good time? That's up to you. There's also resale value to consider if you do only want one setup in the future.

Of course everything adds value to the setup, and it is true that if I've been using something for 3 years then yea it can be considered a worthy investment. What I'm more worried about is with all the gear options being up in the air still and not properly decided I feel like maybe a smaller mount might be limiting my options vs a larger one. Obviously If the starter setup is complete and enough to cover my needs for 2-3 years then that would be fine, but considering I wanted my setup to be heavier than 5kg from the start I never really considered it.  As for resale, I'm sort of a collector of things so even if I had the option to sell it I probably would just keep it even though I am concerned about price now, I rarely end up selling gear I own as I operate under the mentality of you never know when you'll need it. Thank you though I will have to take a look into what I can find.

[Elp]

If you've got the space for it, a heavier duty mount from the start will be better than buying again after. A word of caution however, I did this initially and bought an eq3-2 (also upgraded to the motor drives), never used it really and it took up space indoors.

Edited April 22, 2023 by Elp

[WolfieGlos]

8 hours ago, Balthazar Saissore said:

The only concern I have is, if I am to buy a piece of gear like the star adventurer costing about 500€ but the a year down the line deciding to upgrade it I will be -500 off the target. The way I am thinking about the setup is, if I am going to do it I might as well do it right instead of needing to constantly upgrade.

In this case the mount has a very small load capacity which makes me concerned about using it in the future with a telescope for example meaning I'd be needing a new one, and this you end up with an old + new cost situation. Of course you could resell but that's again taking a chance that someone will want it (obviously no idea of the market for second hand gear in Europe).

Hi and welcome to SGL 🙂

I'll put my thoughts into this. I started this hobby about 18 months ago, I already had a DSLR (Canon 77D), a few lenses and a tripod. And how I started was to buy a star adventurer. Because it was cheap, because I didn't know how far I would take the hobby and because I was ill-informed. I was also on the verge of my wedding, so couldn't justify anymore big expenditure at the time!!

Over time, I added guiding, then an Evostar 72ED+flattener+red-dot sight, astro-modded DSLR....  So inevitably my interest had grown, ambitions got more and more...and 4 months ago I bought a used HEQ5+belt mod for £700.

Honestly...I wish I had done it sooner; a lot of my trials and problems were caused by using a star tracker instead of a proper mount. I also found that the K&F Concept tripod that I used for the SA, rated for 25kg, was very flimsy and wobbled a lot compared to a proper tripod. Using the SA, I would sometimes spend an hour tracking down a target before imaging because it doesn't have GoTo. Now, with the HEQ5, I can have it outside, setup, on target using GoTo and starting imaging in 20 minutes.

What I will say though, is that using the SA taught me a lot from the outset, through trial and error and browsing and asking on forums. Although I would say I've picked up some bad habits doing this (such as manual polar alignment...necessary with the SA, but which I still stupidly do on the HEQ5.....), I would say if you are looking to scratch an itch it's a good way to start, but clearly you know you want more so I would say jump in and go for a proper mount. It will set you on a better path from the start although arguably it's a steeper learning curve. The SA is very simple by comparison; to show this in an image, below is how I started vs how its going now, and my setup isn't refined (cables!) and it doesn't have anything else like electronic focusers, mono-camera with filter wheels, asi-air, etc.

Finally, if you want to get larger scopes particularly for small galaxies and planetary nebula, then look above a HEQ5. I'm finding now, after only 4 months using it, that if I want a larger scope (8" Newt or a large refractor) that I will struggle both in payload and tracking.

 

[Balthazar Saissore]

1 hour ago, Elp said:

If you've got the space for it, a heavier duty mount from the start will be better than buying again after. A word of caution however, I did this initially and bought an eq3-2 (also upgraded to the motor drives), never used it really and it took up space indoors.

My main concern is that I want to go for a telescope and guide scope setup and I'm pretty sure that the star adventurer wouldn't be able to handle that, hence why I wanted to go for the heavy mount straight away. But now I'm re-evaluating my options and it might be a better option, too many options heh.

28 minutes ago, WolfieGlos said:

Hi and welcome to SGL 🙂

I'll put my thoughts into this. I started this hobby about 18 months ago, I already had a DSLR (Canon 77D), a few lenses and a tripod. And how I started was to buy a star adventurer. Because it was cheap, because I didn't know how far I would take the hobby and because I was ill-informed. I was also on the verge of my wedding, so couldn't justify anymore big expenditure at the time!!

Over time, I added guiding, then an Evostar 72ED+flattener+red-dot sight, astro-modded DSLR....  So inevitably my interest had grown, ambitions got more and more...and 4 months ago I bought a used HEQ5+belt mod for £700.

Honestly...I wish I had done it sooner; a lot of my trials and problems were caused by using a star tracker instead of a proper mount. I also found that the K&F Concept tripod that I used for the SA, rated for 25kg, was very flimsy and wobbled a lot compared to a proper tripod. Using the SA, I would sometimes spend an hour tracking down a target before imaging because it doesn't have GoTo. Now, with the HEQ5, I can have it outside, setup, on target using GoTo and starting imaging in 20 minutes.

What I will say though, is that using the SA taught me a lot from the outset, through trial and error and browsing and asking on forums. Although I would say I've picked up some bad habits doing this (such as manual polar alignment...necessary with the SA, but which I still stupidly do on the HEQ5.....), I would say if you are looking to scratch an itch it's a good way to start, but clearly you know you want more so I would say jump in and go for a proper mount. It will set you on a better path from the start although arguably it's a steeper learning curve. The SA is very simple by comparison; to show this in an image, below is how I started vs how its going now, and my setup isn't refined (cables!) and it doesn't have anything else like electronic focusers, mono-camera with filter wheels, asi-air, etc.

Finally, if you want to get larger scopes particularly for small galaxies and planetary nebula, then look above a HEQ5. I'm finding now, after only 4 months using it, that if I want a larger scope (8" Newt or a large refractor) that I will struggle both in payload and tracking.

 

Interesting points, as I can see you're probably using home power for the heq5 which is one of my concerns really, but still solvable I guess. I definitely have plans for delving deeper into AP so no way I'll be stopping at just the basic gear. That's why I wanted to go straight for the one I will probably need rather than just going for the "easier" entry option. 

Definitely wouldn't be a bad nice to have for travelling an being more mobile but it really depends on how soon I'll be transitioning to a telescope rather than a lens. Surprised to hear you've been heaving trouble with heavier scopes, is that with the heq5? or with the SA? Really interested to see what quirks you've faced either way to know what limitations I could end up needing to plan for.

[WolfieGlos]

44 minutes ago, Balthazar Saissore said:

My main concern is that I want to go for a telescope and guide scope setup and I'm pretty sure that the star adventurer wouldn't be able to handle that, hence why I wanted to go for the heavy mount straight away. But now I'm re-evaluating my options and it might be a better option, too many options heh.

Interesting points, as I can see you're probably using home power for the heq5 which is one of my concerns really, but still solvable I guess. I definitely have plans for delving deeper into AP so no way I'll be stopping at just the basic gear. That's why I wanted to go straight for the one I will probably need rather than just going for the "easier" entry option. 

Definitely wouldn't be a bad nice to have for travelling an being more mobile but it really depends on how soon I'll be transitioning to a telescope rather than a lens. Surprised to hear you've been heaving trouble with heavier scopes, is that with the heq5? or with the SA? Really interested to see what quirks you've faced either way to know what limitations I could end up needing to plan for.

The SA can handle the very lightest scopes with a guider, I used https://www.firstlightoptics.com/ed-pro/sky-watcher-evostar-72ed-ds-pro-ota.html + https://www.firstlightoptics.com/zwo-cameras/zwo-mini-finder-guider-asi120mm-bundle.html on the SA, coupled with a field flattener and a DSLR. See below picture. You wouldn't get any larger than this, but that scope perfectly frames larger targets such as the Andromeda galaxy diagonally across a DSLR frame. I was limited to max 2minute subs though, and no dithering to cancel out walking noise. If you wanted a Redcat at 250FL, the SA would work perfectly, and I had success with a Canon 200 f/2.8 lens and achieved longer subs due to the lighter weight and lower strain put onto the tracker. You can input various camera/scopes here to see how they fare with framing up targets: https://astronomy.tools/calculators/field_of_view/

 

As for the HEQ5, it depends on the type of scope. For instance, if you wanted a newtonian, the HEQ5 can handle a 6" f/4 on it's payload capacity but not a 10", and an 8" would be at the limit. Similar for the larger reflectors and refractors, so it depends how large you want to go, what camera you pair with it, and how much money you have/want to spend. If you can afford £7000 for just a mount, I'm sure this will handle almost anything! https://www.firstlightoptics.com/skywatcher-mounts/sky-watcher-eq8-rh-astronomy-mount-with-renishaw-ra-encoder.html 

Others have a lot more experience, but I would echo what they say; invest in a decent mount that will future proof you, and work with it. You can always sell it later on if you need a larger one.

I didn't notice it anywhere, but if you told us a rough budget, I'm sure people could recommend a decent complete setup. Even if you email FLO directly, they would too. They are very helpful.

[M40]

Have you ever seen that film Labyrinth with David Bowie? Every time you start down a path, something changes. So take a step back and see where we are. You need a portable setup for AP and you have a budget of about 2K ish and it's hot where you are. 

You will need a battery pack for your mount and another for your camera and stuff. Very sensible and on the mark point from Olly, so ultimately think cooled camera and there goes a big chunk of your budget. You dont have to start with a cooled camera, you can start with an ok dslr and lens but you will need a tracking mount. The heq5 is portable, just, depends how far you have to move it. If it's far from your car, I would suggest forget it at this stage and now think azgti or star adventurer type of mount. A decent tripod is surprisingly expensive but imo essential. Can you setup close to your car? 

All the best.

 

[Balthazar Saissore]

On 23/04/2023 at 03:09, WolfieGlos said:

The SA can handle the very lightest scopes with a guider, I used https://www.firstlightoptics.com/ed-pro/sky-watcher-evostar-72ed-ds-pro-ota.html + https://www.firstlightoptics.com/zwo-cameras/zwo-mini-finder-guider-asi120mm-bundle.html on the SA, coupled with a field flattener and a DSLR. See below picture. You wouldn't get any larger than this, but that scope perfectly frames larger targets such as the Andromeda galaxy diagonally across a DSLR frame. I was limited to max 2minute subs though, and no dithering to cancel out walking noise. If you wanted a Redcat at 250FL, the SA would work perfectly, and I had success with a Canon 200 f/2.8 lens and achieved longer subs due to the lighter weight and lower strain put onto the tracker. You can input various camera/scopes here to see how they fare with framing up targets: https://astronomy.tools/calculators/field_of_view/

 

As for the HEQ5, it depends on the type of scope. For instance, if you wanted a newtonian, the HEQ5 can handle a 6" f/4 on it's payload capacity but not a 10", and an 8" would be at the limit. Similar for the larger reflectors and refractors, so it depends how large you want to go, what camera you pair with it, and how much money you have/want to spend. If you can afford £7000 for just a mount, I'm sure this will handle almost anything! https://www.firstlightoptics.com/skywatcher-mounts/sky-watcher-eq8-rh-astronomy-mount-with-renishaw-ra-encoder.html 

Others have a lot more experience, but I would echo what they say; invest in a decent mount that will future proof you, and work with it. You can always sell it later on if you need a larger one.

I didn't notice it anywhere, but if you told us a rough budget, I'm sure people could recommend a decent complete setup. Even if you email FLO directly, they would too. They are very helpful.

Hey there sorry for the late response, been pretty busy with work. I definitely cannot afford spending 7k for the mount just yet heh, and honestly I doubt I'd need it.

I am estimating the weight to be roughly at or above 5kg for the setup I'd like but that's obviously an estimation. I've mentioned my budget before, but I'd like to stick to at or around the 2k euro mark. My weight calculations are 2.5kg for a scope, .5kg for camera + .5kg for guidescope + .5kg for guide camera or at least that's the weights I saw at the site. Technically they should be easily covered by the SA, but I'm not sure if being within the weight limit is the same as "works well".

On 23/04/2023 at 11:59, M40 said:

Have you ever seen that film Labyrinth with David Bowie? Every time you start down a path, something changes. So take a step back and see where we are. You need a portable setup for AP and you have a budget of about 2K ish and it's hot where you are. 

You will need a battery pack for your mount and another for your camera and stuff. Very sensible and on the mark point from Olly, so ultimately think cooled camera and there goes a big chunk of your budget. You dont have to start with a cooled camera, you can start with an ok dslr and lens but you will need a tracking mount. The heq5 is portable, just, depends how far you have to move it. If it's far from your car, I would suggest forget it at this stage and now think azgti or star adventurer type of mount. A decent tripod is surprisingly expensive but imo essential. Can you setup close to your car? 

All the best.

 

So I have a couple of options for locations.

For quick access I have a number of locations around me that I can drive to within an hour and all would pretty much be setup right on the car and then pack up go home for the night.

I have a couple of locations that I intend to camp out the night, let's say a mix of 70%-30% with the 30 being near the car, and the rest being far from the car. (By far I mean around 100-400 yards depending)

I also have 2 locations which are country houses and I'll be able to tie in to DC power and have private parking.

The problem is the difference in price between new-used and the availability of used ads. For example I checked some UK used ads and the pricing was significantly lower than other EU secondhand. 

I also found out that it's cheaper for me to buy from FLO and pay duties rather than buy from new EU import duty free. I think for a zenithstar 73 + 50mm guidescope + flattener it came out to about 1276£ from EU, and 1070£ from UK. And that's with the import fees calculated.

I did try to find a suitable cooled camera but have not found anything that I could justify the price of yet since cheapest new one I can get is upwards of 1k here, and there are so many options that I don't even know if the used ads I've found are even any good or suited to dso. 

Basically with 1k£ for the scope related things, 300£ for an SA if it could handle the weight and let's say 500£ for a camera I would be set but even the SA is 600€ new here so heh once again too many things to consider.

[WolfieGlos]

11 hours ago, Balthazar Saissore said:

Hey there sorry for the late response, been pretty busy with work. I definitely cannot afford spending 7k for the mount just yet heh, and honestly I doubt I'd need it.

I am estimating the weight to be roughly at or above 5kg for the setup I'd like but that's obviously an estimation. I've mentioned my budget before, but I'd like to stick to at or around the 2k euro mark. My weight calculations are 2.5kg for a scope, .5kg for camera + .5kg for guidescope + .5kg for guide camera or at least that's the weights I saw at the site. Technically they should be easily covered by the SA, but I'm not sure if being within the weight limit is the same as "works well".

The best analogy I came across is with a car. You could drive everywhere at 20mph in first gear; you would strain the car and likely ruin the engine. Or you could drive in 2nd or 3rd gear, put less stress on it and it would run smoother and be more mechanically sympathetic.

Apply the same logic to the mount.

There is a lot of conflicting information out there, and yes the SA is rated for 5kg. But some say not to go above half that for good tracking and to keep it running smoothly. So that's 2.5kg! My setup was circa 3.5-4kg, and it did struggle even with guiding. Shorter subs can help, but at 2 minutes I was getting a scrap rate (subs with trailing stars) of circa 10%. Personally, if you can't stretch to a HEQ5, then perhaps look at an EQM-35. It will take more of a payload, and is cheaper (and lighter), but will not future proof if you wanted a longer or bigger scope.

I know it's daunting and complicated, I certainly found it so, and there's a lot to consider especially with that limiting factor of money!

[900SL]

I try not to consider how much I have spent since starting this hobby, so all I can say is 'buckle up Dorothy, because cash is going bye bye'

My progression was:

DSLR & wide angle lens

DSLR, intervalometer & DSLR lenses & tracking with Skywatcher Star Adventurer (junk)

Added ASI Air Pro and guide camera to automate and control sequencing and guiding. Like putting lipstick on a pig with the Skywatcher

DSLR & Telescope & much better tracker (Fornax lightrack 2 with a balance arm etc) (excellent portable set up but lacks go to and cannot dither and costs too much, should have gone straight to a equatorial mount)

Because I was in a hot country, the thermal issues with a DSLR were the limiting factor so I decided to go for broke and went to:

Vixen Mount, ASi Air Pro control, OSC 533MC cooled camera (colour is much cheaper and easier than mono), telescopes (which seem to have grown at a worrying rate, from zero to three in a short period)

 

For beginner, try normal DSLR with a cheap tracker, learn basics of stacking, processing, then when you get frustrated with accuracy, lack of go to, polar alignment, noise, etc etc go to a go to mount and OSC camera

And to quote an opft repeated mantra: MOUNT IS EVERYTHING

I now understand that

Edited April 25, 2023 by 900SL

[WolfieGlos]

2 hours ago, 900SL said:

Added ASI Air Pro and guide camera to automate and control sequencing and guiding. Like putting lipstick on a pig with the Skywatcher

I now understand that

That made me laugh 🤣 

Ditto with the last line.....I wish I had fully understood that from the outset.

[M40]

Looks like most times if you lucky you can setup close to your car or somewhere safe so can I suggest that you go straight to the heq5 and work your budget around that. Budgetary constraints try a dslr and wide angle lens and see how you get on. 

Just to add, I recently started playing with the asiair plus and I think its superb. PA and then goto a target and solve, spot on. The aa+ works with some dslr cameras (never tried it) but the aa+ uses the main camera for PA, tracking and solving so you dont initially need a guide scope. So just if you feel this maybe a route for you in the future pick a dslr that is compatible with the aa+. All the best. 

 

[pipnina]

I'm quite fond of my raspberry pi for scope control, but that does require a laptop or it can be a bit fiddly to control via a VNC app on a phone. You also need the 4GB pi4 at a minimum and to source a good quality 3A 5v supply and cable.

[Balthazar Saissore]

7 hours ago, WolfieGlos said:

The best analogy I came across is with a car. You could drive everywhere at 20mph in first gear; you would strain the car and likely ruin the engine. Or you could drive in 2nd or 3rd gear, put less stress on it and it would run smoother and be more mechanically sympathetic.

Apply the same logic to the mount.

There is a lot of conflicting information out there, and yes the SA is rated for 5kg. But some say not to go above half that for good tracking and to keep it running smoothly. So that's 2.5kg! My setup was circa 3.5-4kg, and it did struggle even with guiding. Shorter subs can help, but at 2 minutes I was getting a scrap rate (subs with trailing stars) of circa 10%. Personally, if you can't stretch to a HEQ5, then perhaps look at an EQM-35. It will take more of a payload, and is cheaper (and lighter), but will not future proof if you wanted a longer or bigger scope.

I know it's daunting and complicated, I certainly found it so, and there's a lot to consider especially with that limiting factor of money!

Yea I thought as much the max ratings are rarely for intended use, with half the payload as a guideline I would need to be looking at a minimum payload of 10kg for what i'd like to have as a setup. A new heq5 will cost me about 1400-1500€ so looking at EQM-35 and EQ5 they are both not bad alternatives coming in both at about 10kg payloads. The added 4kg of the HEQ5 are definitely awesome but they add a lot of cost. If I could figure out the taxation on used products from the UK though I'd be able to go for an heq5 I believe as the prices I saw were around the 500-800 pounds range.

6 hours ago, 900SL said:

I try not to consider how much I have spent since starting this hobby, so all I can say is 'buckle up Dorothy, because cash is going bye bye'

My progression was:

DSLR & wide angle lens

DSLR, intervalometer & DSLR lenses & tracking with Skywatcher Star Adventurer (junk)

Added ASI Air Pro and guide camera to automate and control sequencing and guiding. Like putting lipstick on a pig with the Skywatcher

DSLR & Telescope & much better tracker (Fornax lightrack 2 with a balance arm etc) (excellent portable set up but lacks go to and cannot dither and costs too much, should have gone straight to a equatorial mount)

Because I was in a hot country, the thermal issues with a DSLR were the limiting factor so I decided to go for broke and went to:

Vixen Mount, ASi Air Pro control, OSC 533MC cooled camera (colour is much cheaper and easier than mono), telescopes (which seem to have grown at a worrying rate, from zero to three in a short period)

 

For beginner, try normal DSLR with a cheap tracker, learn basics of stacking, processing, then when you get frustrated with accuracy, lack of go to, polar alignment, noise, etc etc go to a go to mount and OSC camera

And to quote an opft repeated mantra: MOUNT IS EVERYTHING

I now understand that

Ah, interesting to see such a colorful experience with the SA. I wonder if you could share a bit more about what kind of issues you faced with the dslr and heat. Obviously I'd prefer to start out with a dedicated color astrocam, but in absence of one I wouldn't like to wait around for more than a year waiting for the possibility that a good deal will show up or that I will raise enough money to get a new one. For example the ASI 533 MC Pro Color costs about 1.2k euros new here, assuming I could find it or a similar one for half the price then it'd be worth it over a dslr, otherwise might need to settle for phone camera or end up choosing the dslr

4 hours ago, M40 said:

Looks like most times if you lucky you can setup close to your car or somewhere safe so can I suggest that you go straight to the heq5 and work your budget around that. Budgetary constraints try a dslr and wide angle lens and see how you get on. 

Just to add, I recently started playing with the asiair plus and I think its superb. PA and then goto a target and solve, spot on. The aa+ works with some dslr cameras (never tried it) but the aa+ uses the main camera for PA, tracking and solving so you dont initially need a guide scope. So just if you feel this maybe a route for you in the future pick a dslr that is compatible with the aa+. All the best. 

 

I think if I can either find a good deal on the heq5 or just wait a bit longer and just go with that. As for the asiair, i think its more of a quality of life improvement than a necessity, it really depends on the deals I can get on either, and I think I'd probably enjoy it more to start a bit more "old school" than, automate everything straight away. I would definitely include such an option though, and I'm definitely all about future proofing so thanks for the suggestion.

2 hours ago, pipnina said:

I'm quite fond of my raspberry pi for scope control, but that does require a laptop or it can be a bit fiddly to control via a VNC app on a phone. You also need the 4GB pi4 at a minimum and to source a good quality 3A 5v supply and cable.

Apart from the fact that a raspberry pi is rarer than gold nowadays, I think it would not be a very enjoyable experience to have to ssh into it to tweak things. Maybe with a wifi hotspot and a simple frontend site hosted on localhost could be interesting but who has the time to go through all that. I already have a few projects with microelectronics I think i'd keep astro as simple as possible on that regard. Although I was under the impression that you can already use a computer for scope control so wouldn't it be a bit redundant if you end up needing a laptop to easily use the pi?

[pipnina]

5 minutes ago, Balthazar Saissore said:

Apart from the fact that a raspberry pi is rarer than gold nowadays, I think it would not be a very enjoyable experience to have to ssh into it to tweak things. Maybe with a wifi hotspot and a simple frontend site hosted on localhost could be interesting but who has the time to go through all that. I already have a few projects with microelectronics I think i'd keep astro as simple as possible on that regard. Although I was under the impression that you can already use a computer for scope control so wouldn't it be a bit redundant if you end up needing a laptop to easily use the pi?

You are right it would be a bit redundant in your case where you'll be next to the scope- I was having a slightly confused moment where I use my RPI4 to control the scope from a distance and didn't make the connection that your and my use cases weren't quite the same haha.

As for the usability: it's honestly really good. If you use Astroberry, which is a fork of the raspbian project which has a desktop, samba server, wifi hotspot and even a VNC server set up from the box, you just have to burn the Astroberry disk image to the SD card, plug it into the PI, put the power on and in a minute or so the "astroberry" wifi hotspot appears. If you connect to that you can open a web browser or a VNC viewer app, and connect to the PI's ip address and it will present you with the login screen, with some configuration of the INDI server (telescope hardware drivers) on the left.

I find it very convenient and flexible, not to mention reasonably priced, but as you say the use case is limited in your situation.

Also Re: availability. Yeah, I struggled to get one and settled on the 2GB model... Only to find out that I *really* needed the 4GB instead.

It is a very neat setup though

[Balthazar Saissore]

8 minutes ago, pipnina said:

You are right it would be a bit redundant in your case where you'll be next to the scope- I was having a slightly confused moment where I use my RPI4 to control the scope from a distance and didn't make the connection that your and my use cases weren't quite the same haha.

As for the usability: it's honestly really good. If you use Astroberry, which is a fork of the raspbian project which has a desktop, samba server, wifi hotspot and even a VNC server set up from the box, you just have to burn the Astroberry disk image to the SD card, plug it into the PI, put the power on and in a minute or so the "astroberry" wifi hotspot appears. If you connect to that you can open a web browser or a VNC viewer app, and connect to the PI's ip address and it will present you with the login screen, with some configuration of the INDI server (telescope hardware drivers) on the left.

I find it very convenient and flexible, not to mention reasonably priced, but as you say the use case is limited in your situation.

Also Re: availability. Yeah, I struggled to get one and settled on the 2GB model... Only to find out that I *really* needed the 4GB instead.

It is a very neat setup though

I was thinking of getting a beaglebone black for some embedded linux practice but I doubt it'll be anytime soon. Yea the 4GB model is especially spicy to find from what I've heard, and close to 220 euro :P for the ones I've found here. I think at that price the asiair is starting to look like a better option. I assume you use to to monitor progress from home while the setup sits comfortably outside in the backyard. I doubt I'll end up doing something like that in the foreseeable future but it is indeed an interesting idea, do you end up getting a live feed of the guidecam and like various pieces of information or is it more of a control panel type thing. (will definitely be checking out the astroberry repo though to see what interesting things they're offering )

[900SL]

41 minutes ago, Balthazar Saissore said:

 

Ah, interesting to see such a colorful experience with the SA. I wonder if you could share a bit more about what kind of issues you faced with the dslr and heat. Obviously I'd prefer to start out with a dedicated color astrocam, but in absence of one I wouldn't like to wait around for more than a year waiting for the possibility that a good deal will show up or that I will raise enough money to get a new one. For example the ASI 533 MC Pro Color costs about 1.2k euros new here, assuming I could find it or a similar one for half the price then it'd be worth it over a dslr, otherwise might need to settle for phone camera or end up choosing the dslr

 

I was in Saudi so don't think this applies to everybody

I still have a D5600 and D610 unmodded. I'd recommend the D5600, works well on brighter broadband targets in dark skies, but thermal noise doubles very 6 degrees rise in temperature so above 20C images were noisy. 

Darks can help calibrate out thermal noise but this is difficult to do accurately with a DSLR as you cannot accurately match the sensor temperature (varies over the night..)

Having said all that, if you are on a strict budget I'd go for a HEQ5 (I don't have one but these are reportedly better than the bottom end skywatcher junk) and a DSLR to start with

Shoot wide angle as this is more forgiving of tracking errors, which you will have if unguided, and undersampled at 250mm - 300mm focal length say

Dark skies will get signal faster, this is the best way to get good data

 

Ill dig out a couple of links to images I have taken with the D5600 / D610

See if these work:

https://stargazerslounge.com/uploads/monthly_2021_09/187794572_4194143097311251_4780922571848731828_n.jpg.ba390f6f2a5dd34a8c6f838d32525552.jpg

https://stargazerslounge.com/uploads/monthly_2021_12/338595115_ONSiril-2.jpg.e1f6f986d67c317a9fa11a7bd9f4888b.jpg

https://stargazerslounge.com/uploads/monthly_2021_12/result.jpg.40eeb7d27b0f6e59c71eea929158bb20.jpg

https://stargazerslounge.com/uploads/monthly_2021_11/Orion.jpg.190e2610a7d273417153411dfdabbd2e.jpg

None of these really bring out the Ha (deep red) in DSO because the DSLR is unmodded, so has a UV/IR filter as standard. Took a lot of exposures, good tracking and dark skies to get these.

 

 

 

Edited April 25, 2023 by 900SL

[pipnina]

1 minute ago, Balthazar Saissore said:

I was thinking of getting a beaglebone black for some embedded linux practice but I doubt it'll be anytime soon. Yea the 4GB model is especially spicy to find from what I've heard, and close to 220 euro 😛 for the ones I've found here. I think at that price the asiair is starting to look like a better option. I assume you use to to monitor progress from home while the setup sits comfortably outside in the backyard. I doubt I'll end up doing something like that in the foreseeable future but it is indeed an interesting idea, do you end up getting a live feed of the guidecam and like various pieces of information or is it more of a control panel type thing. (will definitely be checking out the astroberry repo though to see what interesting things they're offering )

My raspberry PI with astroberry runs Kstars, which is a planetarium software with an embedded astrophotography tool called Ekos. It has a lot of features and does show you things like live guidecam feed, platesolving, autofocus, image capture, goto, assisted polar alignment, mount guiding built in (or connected to PHD2) and even a scheduler which lets you set up a target, a image capture sequence and start/end times and it will automatically start capturing the target at the programmed start time.

On astroberry it's quite stable but on my desktop the updates bring more and more problems- I think my desktop must have ended up running beta branches or something.

I control Kstars on the PI by viewing the desktop in my web browser at my PC indoors. I set my home router to always assign the Pi's MAC address the local ip 192.168.0.33, so I type that into firefox and the Pi's desktop appears!

As for board cost, how the mighty have fallen! I remember the original Rpi model B in 2012 or so cost £30 for the board, as the higher memory version. I even only paid around £80 for my RPI4 2GB with enclosure (a bad enclosure that I replaced, the metal in it acted like a wifi faraday cage haha).

There is a youtube video on RPI alternatives at much lower cost, it is only a roundup but it seems in some cases we can ditch the RPI for one of the alternatives.

 

[Balthazar Saissore]

23 hours ago, 900SL said:

I was in Saudi so don't think this applies to everybody

I still have a D5600 and D610 unmodded. I'd recommend the D5600, works well on brighter broadband targets in dark skies, but thermal noise doubles very 6 degrees rise in temperature so above 20C images were noisy. 

Darks can help calibrate out thermal noise but this is difficult to do accurately with a DSLR as you cannot accurately match the sensor temperature (varies over the night..)

Having said all that, if you are on a strict budget I'd go for a HEQ5 (I don't have one but these are reportedly better than the bottom end skywatcher junk) and a DSLR to start with

Shoot wide angle as this is more forgiving of tracking errors, which you will have if unguided, and undersampled at 250mm - 300mm focal length say

Dark skies will get signal faster, this is the best way to get good data

 

Ill dig out a couple of links to images I have taken with the D5600 / D610

See if these work:

https://stargazerslounge.com/uploads/monthly_2021_09/187794572_4194143097311251_4780922571848731828_n.jpg.ba390f6f2a5dd34a8c6f838d32525552.jpgFetching info...

https://stargazerslounge.com/uploads/monthly_2021_12/338595115_ONSiril-2.jpg.e1f6f986d67c317a9fa11a7bd9f4888b.jpgFetching info...

https://stargazerslounge.com/uploads/monthly_2021_12/result.jpg.40eeb7d27b0f6e59c71eea929158bb20.jpgFetching info...

https://stargazerslounge.com/uploads/monthly_2021_11/Orion.jpg.190e2610a7d273417153411dfdabbd2e.jpgFetching info...

None of these really bring out the Ha (deep red) in DSO because the DSLR is unmodded, so has a UV/IR filter as standard. Took a lot of exposures, good tracking and dark skies to get these.

 

 

 

Yeah heh I think Saudi is definitely a tad hotter than here. At night I can definitely keep it below 20c for most of the year.

Those are some nice pictures, I'd definitely like to have an astromodded dslr for getting amazing colours but yeah in the end it will most likely have to depend on how cheap a DSLR with astromod will be compared to a cooled camera.

I think I agree for the heq5 though, will have to wait a bit longer but it kind of covers my needs pretty well, although in a moment of weakness I think I could settle for the eq5 as well.

23 hours ago, pipnina said:

My raspberry PI with astroberry runs Kstars, which is a planetarium software with an embedded astrophotography tool called Ekos. It has a lot of features and does show you things like live guidecam feed, platesolving, autofocus, image capture, goto, assisted polar alignment, mount guiding built in (or connected to PHD2) and even a scheduler which lets you set up a target, a image capture sequence and start/end times and it will automatically start capturing the target at the programmed start time.

On astroberry it's quite stable but on my desktop the updates bring more and more problems- I think my desktop must have ended up running beta branches or something.

I control Kstars on the PI by viewing the desktop in my web browser at my PC indoors. I set my home router to always assign the Pi's MAC address the local ip 192.168.0.33, so I type that into firefox and the Pi's desktop appears!

As for board cost, how the mighty have fallen! I remember the original Rpi model B in 2012 or so cost £30 for the board, as the higher memory version. I even only paid around £80 for my RPI4 2GB with enclosure (a bad enclosure that I replaced, the metal in it acted like a wifi faraday cage haha).

There is a youtube video on RPI alternatives at much lower cost, it is only a roundup but it seems in some cases we can ditch the RPI for one of the alternatives.

 

Yea that sounds pretty straightforward for a DIY build, seems like an interesting alternative to buying something ready made, but I think it's something of a later addition rather than a priority anyway. There's already a ton of equipment and procedures I'll need to acquaint myself with before counting automations such as these. Thank you for sharing though, will definitely keep it in mind.

Yea pi's are kind of overpriced I tend to look at clones for anything I wanna do in that regard, although even then most usecases are pretty dedicated to specific things so unless I had a bunch of different usecases to experiment with I doubt I'd make the move to buy one to try out.

[Dazzyt66]

One other place you may find useful for Astro gear if you have trouble sourcing:

https://www.astroboot.eu/AstroBoot

They don't ship to UK anymore but I got my HEQ5 from there and a 120p dob years ago vastly cheaper than elsewhere - service was great!