final second refractor dilemma.

[rock-climber]

hi, 

currently using an es80ed essential as only scope (for visual and AP). 

i am considering a second refractor, but i wont be investing more in the foreseeable future (financial/ other expenses reasons). 

i will consider this purchase a 'final second refractor' (yes, go on , joke about that 'final' claim....). 

however, it is not a simple choice, as all you fracoholics know.: 

1. the very cheap and highl;y (?) regarded 102ed f11 sold under various names. (but will be only visual probably). 

2. go all out on a fc100dc or df with the 1.6 extender and flatenners in the future. (can but thats a big spend, but system has good versatility). 

3. sd115s vixen as a 'compromise' in price vs 2. but increase in aperture. 

4. TS 125ed f7.8 or other brand equivalent (good value but need big mount probably for AP option).

any thoughts? especially from users of 2 or more of the above.

note that i live in pretty lp skies, but access bortle 5 or so in half an hour. 

thanks.  

Edited February 14, 2022 by rock-climber

[michael8554]

1 hour ago, rock-climber said:

yes, go on , joke about that 'final' claim..

I promise I won't joke    😂   🤣  😅

What sort of Targets would this OTA be used for ?

Michael

[rock-climber]

9 minutes ago, michael8554 said:

I promise I won't joke    😂   🤣  😅

What sort of Targets would this OTA be used for ?

Michael

a bit of everything, brighter stuff obviously. 

the dillema is whether added aperture of 15-25mm over 4' would be worth the weight, and also whether premium optics and mechanics would be worth the much more expensive investment in the long run. 

[ScouseSpaceCadet]

I'm primarily a visual observer, not a collector of things or particularly well off, so if I already had a 80mm refractor I intended to keep, I would not opt for a 102mm simply because the difference in aperture would be a nice step up but not a major improvement. 

If you're happy with the 80ED would you not consider a larger aperture but still relatively compact & fairly lightweight system like a 6"-8" classical cassegrain to compliment your widefield scope?

Edited February 14, 2022 by ScouseSpaceCadet
Speeling

[Highburymark]

What sort of mount do you have? Or would you buy a new one? With such a range of potential new scopes, this is perhaps the crucial factor.  
The FC-100DC is incredibly light and easy to travel with. Excellent optics as you know. The Vixen and TS would provide a nice jump in aperture though. I’d be very tempted by the Vixen if my only other scope was an 80ED.

[rock-climber]

1 hour ago, ScouseSpaceCadet said:

I'm primarily a visual observer, not a collector of things or particularly well off, so if I already had a 80mm refractor I intended to keep, I would not opt for a 102mm simply because the difference in aperture would be a nice step up but not a major improvement. 

If you're happy with the 80ED would you not consider a larger aperture but still relatively compact & fairly lightweight system like a 6"-8" classical cassegrain to compliment your widefield scope?

yes, in the future i would probably double the aperture of my largest scope with a 10' newt or something. but only if i decide to spend longer sessions and going to better dark sites. 

[rock-climber]

1 hour ago, Highburymark said:

What sort of mount do you have? Or would you buy a new one? With such a range of potential new scopes, this is perhaps the crucial factor.  
The FC-100DC is incredibly light and easy to travel with. Excellent optics as you know. The Vixen and TS would provide a nice jump in aperture though. I’d be very tempted by the Vixen if my only other scope was an 80ED.

currently just a az-gti. i suppose for AP anything over 4' is pushing the limits, but for visual i think its possible to go a bit over the 5kg limit. 

(with counterweights). 

[StarryEyed]

A high end refractor like a Tak requires accessories of the same standard to get the most from it and in terms of cost its a real consideration. I own a tak and it took me a good few years to build up the appropriate eyepieces. So if AP is a key pursuit then you might find you money going further invested in a mount or camera with your existing scope. Five years after getting the tak I still haven't quite got the mount I want which will cost twice as much as the one I have which is still a good mount. So eventually the mount and eyepieces will cost as much as the tak. So plan a path to where you want to be and the steps to get there.

I'm off to look at tripods.. 

Edited February 14, 2022 by StarryEyed

[mikeDnight]

12 hours ago, rock-climber said:

hi, 

currently using an es80ed essential as only scope (for visual and AP). 

i am considering a second refractor, but i wont be investing more in the foreseeable future (financial/ other expenses reasons). 

i will consider this purchase a 'final second refractor' (yes, go on , joke about that 'final' claim....). 

however, it is not a simple choice, as all you fracoholics know.: 

1. the very cheap and highl;y (?) regarded 102ed f11 sold under various names. (but will be only visual probably). 

2. go all out on a fc100dc or df with the 1.6 extender and flatenners in the future. (can but thats a big spend, but system has good versatility). 

3. sd115s vixen as a 'compromise' in price vs 2. but increase in aperture. 

4. TS 125ed f7.8 or other brand equivalent (good value but need big mount probably for AP option).

any thoughts? especially from users of 2 or more of the above.

note that i live in pretty lp skies, but access bortle 5 or so in half an hour. 

thanks.  

I'd like to simply say that if you did decide on an FC100DC or DF,  you really won't need an extender'Q. At it's native f ratio of F7.4 the DC/DF will deliver as much power as you'll ever need on a good night without running out of steam. Honestly, the FC's are cruising at 300X  to 400X on double stars, while offering a beautiful bright wide field of 3.25° with a 35mm Panoptic.  The Q will give you F11.8, but they are fiddly to connect and disconnect due to their fine threads. (Tak love their fine threads and extension tubes!) I was unaware of any meaningful field curvature at F7.4. I'm not saying it wasn't there, just that I didn't notice it, so the Q for me was an expensive misadventure. If you like to use longer focal length eyepieces for high powers I'd suggest using a barlow or powermate. Alternatively a barlowed binoviewer would up the amplification significantly to produce comfortable high powers. Good quality plossl's, orthoscopic's or Tak Le's are good choices.

 

 

Edited February 14, 2022 by mikeDnight

[rock-climber]

10 hours ago, mikeDnight said:

I'd like to simply say that if you did decide on an FC100DC or DF,  you really won't need an extender'Q. At it's native f ratio of F7.4 the DC/DF will deliver as much power as you'll ever need on a good night without running out of steam. Honestly, the FC's are cruising at 300X  to 400X on double stars, while offering a beautiful bright wide field of 3.25° with a 35mm Panoptic.  The Q will give you F11.8, but they are fiddly to connect and disconnect due to their fine threads. (Tak love their fine threads and extension tubes!) I was unaware of any meaningful field curvature at F7.4. I'm not saying it wasn't there, just that I didn't notice it, so the Q for me was an expensive misadventure. If you like to use longer focal length eyepieces for high powers I'd suggest using a barlow or powermate. Alternatively a barlowed binoviewer would up the amplification significantly to produce comfortable high powers. Good quality plossl's, orthoscopic's or Tak Le's are good choices.

 

 

Thanks, good to know. I suppose a reducer would be more useful. 

Edited February 15, 2022 by rock-climber

[rock-climber]

9 hours ago, StarryEyed said:

A high end refractor like a Tak requires accessories of the same standard to get the most from it and in terms of cost its a real consideration. I own a tak and it took me a good few years to build up the appropriate eyepieces. So if AP is a key pursuit then you might find you money going further invested in a mount or camera with your existing scope. Five years after getting the tak I still haven't quite got the mount I want which will cost twice as much as the one I have which is still a good mount. So eventually the mount and eyepieces will cost as much as the tak. So plan a path to where you want to be and the steps to get there.

I'm off to look at tripods.. 

Yes, i guess that should be a consideration. They really should include the cradle and finder at that cost , I mean Vixen does. 

I think the ed102 f11 is off the options, I read the long moment requires a bigger mount . 

So my dilemma is a 4' tak , a 115mm Vixen , (or 103) , and the sw120ed , which is a big bargain... 

[RobertI]

Bit of a dilemma indeed! I think if you get a 4” Tak you’ll want to be able to use its high power abilities on doubles and solar system, so you’ll want a mount upgrade too to keep things steady. The alternative is more light gathering for DSOs, so a 115-125mm would be better, but you’d need a mount upgrade for the increased weight! So I think it boils down to would you like to specialise on doubles and solar system or do you want brighter DSO images? Just my thoughts, probably doesn’t help!  

You’re probably already aware, the alternative to the 102ED F11 is the 102ED F7 either FPL53 at around £900 or FPL51 at £500. I have found mine much easier to mount and use than my longer 4”F10 Tal. With the money you save over a more premium scope, you could upgrade the mount, get a binoviewer and some other accessories. 
 

But if you can afford a Tak…….

Edited February 15, 2022 by RobertI

[StarryEyed]

I'm unashamedly biased towards Japanese workmanship having worked with Japanese industry for ten years so Vixen or Takahashi. Vixen have been around since 1949 and Takahashi 1946 theres some joy in owning a product from companies like this. 

Not of much help to you and your choice I know. 

[F15Rules]

+1 for the Vixen.

I've owned 2 ED103s ( now the "SD" but almost identical)..the Vixens' are oversized tubes but very light and to my eyes look fabulous (not the main reason to buy of course!).

I now have a Tak FS128 and for a short time owned both the Tak 128mm and the ED103s simultaneously, so could compare them. Honestly, the ED103s was visually right up there with the Tak, sharpness, contrast etc, but the extra 25mm really does count, especially on fainter objects. 

I couldn't find a115s Vixen at the time , and really wanted a 5" all round visual scope and was very lucky to find a mint FS128 (at a price!😱). 5 years on, I love the Tak and it will stay with me, but I would take a Vixen 115s in a heartbeat. My Tak is a big tube, but only 7.5kg and sits well on a Tak EM2 mount (think Vixen GPDX capacity). I think an HEQ5 for visual or EQ6 for imaging would work well, and both come up used at good prices quite regularly.

I don't do AP, but at F7.7 and good CA control I think the Vixen would do a decent job..and you already have your 80mm for all night imaging etc..

Good luck with your decision.

Dave