Anybody using an ASCOM flat panel in NINA ?

[scotty38]

To be fair the Discord thing is the one bit I don't like, maybe it's my age, but regardless it does not affect my view of the application.

Yes you can donate or become a Patron to support it by the way.

[Stuart1971]

4 minutes ago, scotty38 said:

To be fair the Discord thing is the one bit I don't like, maybe it's my age, but regardless it does not affect my view of the application.

Yes you can donate or become a Patron to support it by the way.

I don’t like the layout and the way conversations get lost and it’s difficult to find them again, but to get an answer to a issue quickly from the developers themselves, it’s second to none, I have asked questions during an imaging session, and got a pretty instant answer which allowed me to carry on, but I do get what you mean…👍🏼

[teoria_del_big_bang]

28 minutes ago, scotty38 said:

To be fair the Discord thing is the one bit I don't like, maybe it's my age, but regardless it does not affect my view of the application.

Yes you can donate or become a Patron to support it by the way.

Yes not my thing either , its more like Facebook than a forum but probably the modern way 🙂 

Steve

[adyj1]

2 hours ago, Stuart1971 said:

I have asked questions during an imaging session, and got a pretty instant answer which allowed me to carry on

Same thing happened to me. I know you can't expect it every time, but the fact it happens at all is pretty good. 

[teoria_del_big_bang]

More I use NINA the more I like it, the advanced sequencer is a bit scary though, I think I might be starting with the simple sequencer to begin with.

I love the imaging page and the fact it is so easy to rearange panels to your liking and add tabs and new panels, jut brilliant.

And, the framing tool, just fantastic.  I always found it quite difficult in Ekos to get the framing just as I wanted it unles you already had an image from previous sessions that is the correct framing or uness you wanted the centre of your image to be same as what you clicked on in KStars. This is just so fast and simple to use and the mosaic tools mean I think I can attempt mosaics this year as I was always a bit worried about how to frame each just right with same angle and correct overlaps.

Steve

[Stuart1971]

18 minutes ago, teoria_del_big_bang said:

More I use NINA the more I like it, the advanced sequencer is a bit scary though, I think I might be starting with the simple sequencer to begin with.

I love the imaging page and the fact it is so easy to rearange panels to your liking and add tabs and new panels, jut brilliant.

And, the framing tool, just fantastic.  I always found it quite difficult in Ekos to get the framing just as I wanted it unles you already had an image from previous sessions that is the correct framing or uness you wanted the centre of your image to be same as what you clicked on in KStars. This is just so fast and simple to use and the mosaic tools mean I think I can attempt mosaics this year as I was always a bit worried about how to frame each just right with same angle and correct overlaps.

Steve

glad to hear it…👍🏼
I still use the simple sequencer, ir does all I need it to do, and I actually let it do a flip the other night, first time I have ever done one, and just so simple and all worked really well…

[scotty38]

@Stuart1971 @teoria_del_big_bang I stuck with the simple one at first then just spent a few minutes getting my head round the advanced one and once it clicks it's no bother at all really. I just wish I could process stuff as "easily" as it can be captured.

[adyj1]

Getting back to the flat panel, does anyone have a simple workflow for working out the best flats exposure time? (given that the software is automatically able to work what length exposure gives you the optimal ADU...) 

[teoria_del_big_bang]

18 hours ago, adyj1 said:

Getting back to the flat panel, does anyone have a simple workflow for working out the best flats exposure time? (given that the software is automatically able to work what length exposure gives you the optimal ADU...) 

Not quite sure what you are asking for here.

So are we talking using Nina ?
And is this with a flat panel that can change the intensity through NINA , or a manual adjustment of intensity, or a flat panel that is just one intensity ?

Steve

[adyj1]

2 minutes ago, teoria_del_big_bang said:

Not quite sure what you are asking for here.

So are we talking using Nina ?
And is this with a flat panel that can change the intensity through NINA , or a manual adjustment of intensity, or a flat panel that is just one intensity ?

Steve

Good point, I wasn't clear... 

Using nina with an alnitak-compatible flat panel. There are a few settings like minimum and maximum exposure length, etc - so what are good or bad values?

Although NINA *could* change the intensity of the panel automatically, in the default method it doesn't... And complains if it isn't bright enough! 

[teoria_del_big_bang]

14 hours ago, adyj1 said:

Good point, I wasn't clear... 

Using nina with an alnitak-compatible flat panel. There are a few settings like minimum and maximum exposure length, etc - so what are good or bad values?

Although NINA *could* change the intensity of the panel automatically, in the default method it doesn't... And complains if it isn't bright enough! 

Well I have just opted for the change intensity method for several reasons:

• I have paid for a panel that has the capability to change intensity via the sequencing software.
• I often use LRGB and NB n the same night (maybe different targets) so often need to take flats for all filters. If I use one panel intensity then its not possible to have one intensity to suit all filters.
  • If I use a fairly high intensity then the L, and probably RGB will be far too short exposure (not good with CMOS t use flats under 3 seconds)
  • If I use a low intensity to make L exposure over 3 seconds then Ha and SII will be several minutes exposure.
• Also ideally if all flats have different exposures then I need a different set of matching darks (yes PI can scale them but I prefer the correct dark same exposure length as flat or light)..
• Using NINA to change the light intensity just works perfectly foe me.
  • I want all flats to be 4 seconds so I can create a 4 second master dark and use that for several months to come meaning I do not have to do darks every session.
  • It means at 4 seconds even taking a reasonable number of flats for all filters does not take that long.
  • I have an automatic flip flat panel so I can just ad the flats procedure on to end of the session when it is still dark but too light for good images then all flats are done when I wake up and put the rig back in garage.
     

So it just makes sense to me for all the above reasons to use changing intensity if you have that ability.
I would just say make sure you are happy with the L and maybe RGB flats at 4 seconds as I guess on some panels the intensity could be too low to get a good even spread of light for decent flats.
My DSD seems fine.
But, if this were the case then you could try a piece of thin white paper o top of the panel, then it is a case of whether you can get the intensity high enough for the NB.
 

Steve

[teoria_del_big_bang]

On 23/01/2022 at 22:46, scotty38 said:

@Stuart1971 @teoria_del_big_bang I stuck with the simple one at first then just spent a few minutes getting my head round the advanced one and once it clicks it's no bother at all really. I just wish I could process stuff as "easily" as it can be captured.

Ha Ha , yes processing when will NINA do all that for you automatically 🙂 

But even the simple sequencer is great and easy to use. I love the way you can set it all going and add to it, even when you have finished a couple rows and its on the third one say then you think I could do with more of the frames on rows 1 and 2 you can just up the total amount of frames and it then goes back to them and does so more.
It just a dream 🙂 
 

Steve

[scotty38]

16 minutes ago, teoria_del_big_bang said:

Ha Ha , yes processing when will NINA do all that for you automatically 🙂 

But even the simple sequencer is great and easy to use. I love the way you can set it all going and add to it, even when you have finished a couple rows and its on the third one say then you think I could do with more of the frames on rows 1 and 2 you can just up the total amount of frames and it then goes back to them and does so more.
It just a dream 🙂 
 

Steve

Agree totally. I guess we could get back to the original topic, how are you finding the flat panel? I'm liking the idea of the automation and the psychology of covering the scope once imaging is finished...

Edit: Apologies I'd missed a few posts above....

Edited January 25, 2022 by scotty38

[teoria_del_big_bang]

38 minutes ago, scotty38 said:

Agree totally. I guess we could get back to the original topic, how are you finding the flat panel? I'm liking the idea of the automation and the psychology of covering the scope once imaging is finished...

It brilliant as far as I can see.
Unless I am missing something (can't rule that out ever I am finding out) it just does everything I need.
I was sceptical at first that the range of brightness would easily cover doing flats in LRGB and my ultra NB filters as with my old Aurora panel if I had to use filters over the panel for LRGB to reduce the intensity. If I didn't then the exposures were too short at sub 1 second and this does not seem to bode well for CMOS cameras, alternatively using a dimmer on it tended to give me intermittent banding on the flats. Also even at full brightness the Ha exposures were around 25 seconds and SII were around 32 seconds so took a while to take them all. So this and having to use a filter in between NB and LRGB flats if I needed to take them all it was a bit of a faff.

The DSD seems to have a vast range of intensities and even for Lum, where the panel is very dim, images the illumination seems even, I don't seem to need a filter or a piece of paper to get even illumination, and to give you an idea how different the intensities are it needs a level around 20 for Lum and 2000 for SII so SII is 100 times brighter (if it is linear I do not really know that) to get 4 second exposures (3 to 5 seconds for flats I think is about right) for all filters which I think you could not ask for more.
So even with a 3.5 Nm SII filter I can get 50% ADU at 4 seconds with aa brightness setting at 2000, the maximum brightness goes up to 4096 so still only half the potential brightness, so if you think you do need a filter or a piece of white paper to get even illumination you probably can still get the ADU with it.

And the fact that so long as the sequence doesn't get interrupted it does it all automatically is just great.
I am not sure yet what would happen if it got cloudy or guiding went wrong if it would stop taking all the lights but still take the flats in NINA, I think in EKOS it would not take the flats either, but even if NINA is the same maybe I can suggest otherwise as they always seem willing to introduce suggestions from users.

And as you say being able to cover the scope at the end of a session or I guess if imaging stops due to clouds is a real plus.

Only downside I have found is that for Darks I would not rely on it to fully seal the sensor from any light. I have tried in a dark room and it is probably fine in that instance but probably unless a totally dark room some small amount will get to the sensor.
But if you make a library of darks with the proper cap fitted or remove camera and cover with foil then you only need to do this once a year I think and just keep using the darks from that library.
So being able to know all your flats are at a certain exposure length (because even to get the correct ADU each tile NINA will change the light intensity not the exposure length) means you can take these 3 or 4 second darks too at same time.

Its not hard to remove the panel anyway to take darks, just one screw to undo.

Steve

 

Edited January 25, 2022 by teoria_del_big_bang

[scotty38]

Thanks @teoria_del_big_bang that's great. I have a flat panel at the minute, it's adjustable but fully manual. You answered the question I have about intensities as, at the moment, I have to use 3 bits of A4 paper for the UVIR flats and nothing for the L-eXtreme just because, like you, I'm aiming for flats of 3 seconds plus, give or take.

Interesting about the flat darks though as I always take those at exactly the same exposure as the equivalent flat which NINA does easily but of course if the flat panel doesn't seal 100%..... I am assuming that given the flats are "quite a long exposure" that the dark side would be important ie a dark of 3 seconds would gave different characteristics to a dark of 1 second.

I suppose I could take them mid session while it's still dark, that's the beauty of the NINA sequencer it'll do that easily and wouldn't eat in to much of the imaging time,...

[teoria_del_big_bang]

4 minutes ago, scotty38 said:

Interesting about the flat darks though as I always take those at exactly the same exposure as the equivalent flat which NINA does easily but of course if the flat panel doesn't seal 100%..... I am assuming that given the flats are "quite a long exposure" that the dark side would be important ie a dark of 3 seconds would gave different characteristics to a dark of 1 second.

I suppose I could take them mid session while it's still dark, that's the beauty of the NINA sequencer it'll do that easily and wouldn't eat in to much of the imaging time,...

I also want them same exposure (even though I use PI which will accept different exposure darks and scale them for you - but I like everything to be just so) which is why I love this new DSD panel because I can ensure my flats are all the correct ADU AND all are exactly 4 seconds (not 3,93, or 4,28 etc) , NINA can use the intensity method to change intensity automatically rather than adjusting the exposure time. 

Unfortunately you cannot do that with a manual intensity but with this DSD panel and NINA you do not need to take flat darks every session as you know they will all be 3 seconds, or 4 seconds depending on what you decide, so just take those dark frames once either with the panel shut in a very dark room, or if you are over particular like me remove the panel and fit the OTA cover. Because you only need to do it one time a year or so it is just part of your dark library, you know all flats in future will be the same exact exposure time.

So easy.

Steve

[scotty38]

14 minutes ago, teoria_del_big_bang said:

I also want them same exposure (even though I use PI which will accept different exposure darks and scale them for you - but I like everything to be just so) which is why I love this new DSD panel because I can ensure my flats are all the correct ADU AND all are exactly 4 seconds (not 3,93, or 4,28 etc) , NINA can use the intensity method to change intensity automatically rather than adjusting the exposure time. 

Unfortunately you cannot do that with a manual intensity but with this DSD panel and NINA you do not need to take flat darks every session as you know they will all be 3 seconds, or 4 seconds depending on what you decide, so just take those dark frames once either with the panel shut in a very dark room, or if you are over particular like me remove the panel and fit the OTA cover. Because you only need to do it one time a year or so it is just part of your dark library, you know all flats in future will be the same exact exposure time.

So easy.

Steve

of course, good point re the flat darks once you know the flat exposure is consistent....

[teoria_del_big_bang]

Justin case you missed it I did a bit of a review of the DSD panel

DSD Flap Panel

Steve