Deep Sky Dad Flap Panel FP1

[teoria_del_big_bang]

 

Product

•  Deep Sky Dad Flap Panel enables automation of making flats, protecting your optics from unwanted dust when not imaging and (optionally) preventing dewing issues with built in heater.
• DSD are currently offering 3 following variations of flap panel:
  • Aperture up to 84mm - 250 Euros (without VAT)
    • Askar 200mm (ACL200)
    • Askar FRA400
    • Askar FMA230
    • Askar FRA400
    • SkyWatcher Equinox 80 Pro
    • Sharpstar 61EDPH
    • TS-Optics PhotoLine 60 mm f/6 FPL53 Apo
    • William Optics Gran Turismo GT81 IV
    • William Optics RedCat 51
    • William Optics RedCat 71
    • William Optics Zenithstar 73
    • William Optics Zenithstar 81 APO
  • Aperture up to 134mm - 300 Euros (without VAT)
    • Askar FRA600
    • Officina Stellare Hiperapo 115
    • Sigma 105mm F1.4 Art
    • StellaMira 90mm ED Triplet f/6
    • Takahashi FSQ 85 EDXP
    • Takahashi FSQ 106 EDX4
    • TS-Optics CF-APO 90mm FPL55
    • TS-Optics PHOTOLINE 115mm
    • TS Photoline 130
    • Vixen AX103S
• Apertures over 134mm - 350 Euros (without VAT)
  • Explore Scientific ES127
  • Skywatcher Esprit ED120

Prices are correct at current time of writing this (Jan 2022), there is an optional heater band incorporated into panel mounting ring at an additional cost of 50 Euros and delivery to UK via DHL is 24 Euros.
Don’t forget these are without VAT, if importing into UK there will be about another 23% to add for VAT and handling fees.

When I bought mine back in August 2021 a version for the Esprit 100ED was not available (still not on shop website for some reason) but you can email Pavle Gartner with your dimensions and he will quote you for one your size.
If you do this just be careful of the dimensions you give as I got it wrong. The end of the dew shield has a black ring that is a slightly larger diameter, and it is the diameter of that ring I should have given but I gave the diameter of the shield itself, so when it arrived it did not quite fit.
Pavle kindly offered to print another part and just charge for postage but as I had a 3D printer I was able to easily draw up a replacement in CAD and print my own. The best thing to do (I guess) is to measure the inner diameter of the scope lens cap.

 

In use the flat panel is a dream. With my CMOS camera I like to take flats at least 3 seconds exposure. With this I can not only ensure all flats are at least this exposure I can actually make sure they are all the same exposure length, and all have the correct ADU required. Unless I am missing something (can't rule that out ever I am finding out) it just does everything I need.

I was sceptical at first that the range of brightness would easily cover doing flats in LRGB and my ultra NB filters.
With my old Aurora panel if I had to use filters over the panel for LRGB to reduce the intensity.
If I didn't then the exposures were too short at sub 1 second and this does not seem to bode well for CMOS cameras, alternatively using a manual dimmer on it tended to give me intermittent banding on the flats, so also was not an option for me.
Also, even at full brightness, the Ha exposures were around 25 seconds and SII were around 32 seconds so took a while to take them all.
Because of the lengthy subs for NB and having to use a filter over the flat panel (or pieces of white paper) in between taking NB and LRGB flats (if I needed to take them all) it was a bit of a faff with this old panel.

The DSD seems to have a vast range of intensities, from 0 (off) to 4096 (Max).
Even for Lum flats, where the panel is very dim, the illumination seems even, I don't seem to need a filter or a piece of paper to get even illumination.
To give you an idea how different the intensities are it needs a level around 20 for Lum flats and around 2000 for SII. So SII is 100 times brighter (if it is linear I do not really know that) to get the same 4 second exposures Lum as SII and I could easily achieve 4 second exposures for all filters.

So even with a 3.5 Nm SII filter I can get 50% ADU at 4 seconds with a brightness setting at 2000, the maximum brightness goes up to 4096 so still only half the potential brightness, so if you think you do need a filter or a piece of white paper to get even illumination you probably can still get the ADU with it.

Using with EKOS

I originally used this with EKOS and at that time decided to use 3 second exposures for all my flats (although currently use 4 seconds).

 

In order to get approximately 3 second exposures, I experimented with taking flats at various light intensities and seeing what the ADU was and so I found what light intensity was required to get approximately 3 second exposures and you can then type these into EKOS so when that particular filter is selected it automatically sets the light intensity to the programmed value.
The values in the image above are what I needed to get 50% ADU for 3 second exposures.

However, because EKOS will only select the light intensity you set in this option tab for each filter, If I used the automatic flat calibration option in EKOS to get the right ADU then the exposures would be approximately 3 seconds but would not be exact and would be 2.87, or 3.14 etc.
So if you wanted flat darks exactly the same exposures as the flats this would mean also taking darks at the same odd exposure times each session.
But I did not want to be doing this, I wanted to use a dark from a library of darks taken say once a year like most people do with lights and I wanted them to be the same exposure time exactly which meant having flats ALL at 3 seconds exactly. All this means is turning of the automatic ADU calibration and just set 3 second exposure lengths for all flats, because you already have set the correct light intensity then all it means it you may not get exactly 50% ADU but all should be pretty close and absolutely fine for use as flats.

 

Using with NINA

I recently have changed to using NINA, mainly because I wanted to return to a Windows based sequencer.
NINA is even easier, it has the same pre-sets at in EKOS bit also has two options to automate the flats and give the correct ADU. It has the method where it keeps changing the exposure time until it achieves the correct ADU or you can select it to keep a constant exposure time and change the light intensity to achieve the correct ADU.

Above shows the panel intensities for 4 second flats that NINA used to get 50% ADU. So that’s as low as 18 for Lum and as high as 2102 for SII.

Whether using EKOS or NINA it is just a matter of adding the flats to the end of a nights sequence, probably to start while it is still dark but when its now too light for good light frames. When it gets to taking these flats, the panel will automatically close, turn the panel LEDs on at the correct intensity for the filter and will automatically take the desired number of flats.
When all flats are taken it will turn off the light and go through any shut down procedure set up in the sequencer, including leaving the panel closed with light off to protect your scope lens from unnecessary exposure to the weather and other contaminants.

The fact that so long as the sequence doesn't get interrupted flats are taken automatically is just great, leave everything sequencing all night then in the morning just shut down and take everything inside (assuming no obsy).
I am not sure yet what would happen if it got cloudy or guiding went wrong if it would stop taking all the lights but still take the flats. I think in NINA it might, but probably in EKOS it would not take the flats either, but even if NINA is the same maybe I can suggest otherwise as they always seem willing to introduce suggestions from users.

And being able to cover the scope at the end of a session or I guess if imaging stops due to clouds is a real plus.

There are several magnets embedded in the flap outer that match up with magnets in the fixed part around the scope dew shield that snap the lid firmly shut, so it stays there, and it can remove power from the motor.
However, I personally would not trust this closure to be able to take darks. maybe if it was still dark outside, or if the rig was in a very dark garage it would work satisfactory, but I prefer to take a library of darks once a year that covers all my needs, including the 3 or 4 second darks for use with the flats, using the proper scope cap or with the camera removed and covered in foil. I would not guarantee no light leakage if using the flap in a shut position.
Taking the cover off is not difficult and only needs one screw untightening, so taking darks later is not a huge issue.

The only downside I have found is that for Darks I would not rely on it to fully seal the sensor from any light.

I have only mentioned EKOS and NINA sequencing software because that all I have used but I think is also compatible with others, after all it has both INDI and ASCOM drivers.

Operation of both the flap and LED light panel can be done from 3^rd party software such as NINA or EKOS, or via a small windows program available from DSD.

Manual operation is possible via built in button.

• Single press of button opens/closes the panel
• If you press the button again while moving, the flap stops at current position
• Long press turns LED light ON/OFF. This can come handy if you need a lamp while working in
the dark.

 

I haven’t mentioned the optional built in heater.
Mine has this extra but to be honest I have never really used it.
I originally asked whether this heater was intended for use as a replacement for the optics dew band or for the panel light itself. The reply suggested it was originally intended for the optics but that for loger scopes like my Esprit it would probably not be very effective due to the distance away from the lens and was more intended for shorter scopes like the Redcat.
However I could not resist buying the option to try it.
The Esprit has a pretty long dew shield and so it means the heater it around 200 mm away from the lens and in my opinion is not effective there.
Now I know positioning of dew bands is a bit controversial and some will wrap them around where the lens is, others say in front of them to heat the air up inside the shield in front of the lens, but I think 200 mm away is just too far away and so still use my dew band (I won’t say where as I don’t want to get into that argument 😊 ).
Besides for an extra 50 Euros you can get two decent bands for that so probably not worth it, yes they then need a separate 12V supply but I will leave that up to you to make the decision.

However, looking at the website recently there is an additional comment which suggests it may also be used to combat dew on the light panel. As I have only just been made aware of this, thanks to @scotty38 I need to put this to the test. I can see that would work so long as you had some delay maybe between closing the flap and starting taking the flats.
I will test when I can and update this review 🙂 
The website states: "But that is not all! For those with humid conditions, we are also offering an optional accessory – built in heater, which can dry up the dew off the LED panel. And for smaller telescopes it can even take care of optics dewing. Note: for major dewing and larger optics which have bigger lens, which is further away from the front of the dew shield we still recommend dedicated dew strip."

In summary, I am really pleased with this panel and so glad I bought it, flats are now so easy it’s unbelievable. I think for the price it is worth it and the only negatives I have found are not being able to take darks with it fitted (my opinion) and the heater is not really of any use.
 

Cost from £340 for the small version to £460 for the biggest version including delivery to UK including taxes in duty (without heater).

I am not fully sure what tests I can do to give evidence of how good it actually is as a flat light source. If anyone has a suggestion let me know and I will willingly give it a go.

 

 

Steve

 

Edited January 25, 2022 by teoria_del_big_bang

[scotty38]

This is my next purchase 🙂

Couple of things though, in the NINA advanced sequencer you can set error conditions so if the lights failed or something you can set the sequence to Continue, Skip the instruction, Abort or run the Sequence End Instructions.

I thought the heater on the flat panel was for the LED itself rather than the scope. I imagine if it dews up while taking lights when you close it the heater clears it. Of course, again with the NINA sequence you can set a delay before taking any flats etc to give it time to clear.

Edit:

 Yep from the DSD site:

But that is not all! For those with humid conditions, we are also offering an optional accessory – built in heater, which can dry up the dew off the LED panel. And for smaller telescopes it can even take care of optics dewing. Note: for major dewing and larger optics which have bigger lens, which is further away from the front of the dew shield we still recommend dedicated dew strip.

2nd Edit:

Now I'm thinking of one of these and can take flats associated with the target and the camera rotation etc I amended my NINA file naming so now everything gets saved in the "Target" directory along with the related flats etc so they can be more easily tied together.

 

Edited January 25, 2022 by scotty38

[teoria_del_big_bang]

44 minutes ago, scotty38 said:

in the NINA advanced sequencer you can set error conditions so if the lights failed or something you can set the sequence to Continue, Skip the instruction, Abort or run the Sequence End Instructions.

That's good to know, I will have to take a deep breath and start looking at the advanced sequencer.

44 minutes ago, scotty38 said:

I thought the heater on the flat panel was for the LED itself rather than the scope. I imagine if it dews up while taking lights when you close it the heater clears it. Of course, again with the NINA sequence you can set a delay before taking any flats etc to give it time to clear.

Ah well that's what I originally thought and was in discussion with Pavle for sometime before I purchased this panel and the rotator and I asked the question.

And the reply 

So looks like the quote in your last reply is an recent addition after chatting about it being no use for the optics on my scope, so maybe this is something I need to test as so far I think I left it off all the time.
How good it is for the panel I am not sure as it is on the outside of the dew shield but like you say maybe switch it on when flap is closed and wait several minutes - I need to dew the panel up on a chilly night and test if it works.

Steve 

[teoria_del_big_bang]

54 minutes ago, scotty38 said:

Now I'm thinking of one of these and can take flats associated with the target and the camera rotation etc I amended my NINA file naming so now everything gets saved in the "Target" directory along with the related flats etc so they can be more easily tied together.

 

This is my current pattern, might tweak it yet though. I have camera rotation and focusser position just so I can see how much the focusser moves in a session, problem I see is that I end up with unwanted additions in the darks files that annoys me, such as filter and now the rotation angle and focusser position.

I would like to see the ability to specify different paths and subfolder paths along with different pattern filenames for darks and maybe even flats, maybe I will put this request in at some stage.

Steve

Edited January 25, 2022 by teoria_del_big_bang

[scotty38]

I assume you must have an auto rotator then? I am not wanting to split files up that much to be honest and I chop and change between Target or Date at the top level but beyond that having everything else below that is ok for me.

I'm not sure I totally understand why you want to have a separate structure as you mentioned though, maybe I'm just being dim 🙂 If you chose not to do darks unless you need them why do you end up with unwanted ones?

BTW I think we should start a NINA thread 🙂

[teoria_del_big_bang]

22 minutes ago, scotty38 said:

I assume you must have an auto rotator then? I am not wanting to split files up that much to be honest and I chop and change between Target or Date at the top level but beyond that having everything else below that is ok for me.

Yes also fro DSD.

23 minutes ago, scotty38 said:

I'm not sure I totally understand why you want to have a separate structure as you mentioned though, maybe I'm just being dim 🙂 If you chose not to do darks unless you need them why do you end up with unwanted ones?

Okay maybe a bit OTT just that I dont really need the filter, or focus position or rotation angle in darks but I want them in the flats and lights, also I would want a different sun folder structure and lastly do not want a target name and if I leave the target name out it still puts the underscores in.
Like I say it is not something I cant live with but would be nice to specify different file and directory paths and probably not a big job.

26 minutes ago, scotty38 said:

IBTW I think we should start a NINA thread 🙂

Probably are several already but yes would be good to share ideas and tips 🙂 

Steve

[scotty38]

7 minutes ago, teoria_del_big_bang said:

Yes also fro DSD.

if I leave the target name out it still puts the underscores in.
Probably are several already but yes would be good to share ideas and tips 🙂 

Steve

Ah will have a look at those too.

The underscore being left is because you have it as a separator after the variable ie $$Targetname$$_   I use my own text to describe what the variable is.

and yes there are loads already 🙂

Edited January 25, 2022 by scotty38

[scotty38]

Just ordered one 🙂

[teoria_del_big_bang]

19 hours ago, scotty38 said:

Just ordered one 🙂

It seems a bit expense but well worth it.

Did you bother with the heater or not ?
 

Steve

Edited February 6, 2022 by teoria_del_big_bang

[scotty38]

13 minutes ago, teoria_del_big_bang said:

It seems a big expense but well worth it.

Did you bother with the heater or not ?
 

Steve

Yes I went with the heater too. It is expensive yes but at least I can add flats and FlatDarks to the sequences now for any rotations I've done.

I'm also keen on being able to close the flap after imaging but that's a nice to have and wouldn't have prevented me going out last night to see why my plate solving was playing up up only to find there'd been a rain shower. All seems to have dried out ok though....

[teoria_del_big_bang]

2 minutes ago, scotty38 said:

Yes I went with the heater too. It is expensive yes but at least I can add flats and FlatDarks to the sequences now for any rotations I've done.

I'm also keen on being able to close the flap after imaging but that's a nice to have and wouldn't have prevented me going out last night to see why my plate solving was playing up up only to find there'd been a rain shower. All seems to have dried out ok though....

Always one of my worries when I leave it out all night.
I really would love to build an obsy with automatic roll on off roof, but as a short term think I might try to integrate a weather station, or at least a rain monitor so I can close the flap if this happens.

Steve

[scotty38]

Yep agreed, I am going to build one this spring and hopefully automate the roof but as you say that still needs some weather integration too.

[teoria_del_big_bang]

Just a bit of an update on the flat panel.

In general still very pleased and its functioning well.

One caveat, one of my aims was to be able to put the flat frames at the end of a sequence to take all flats for all filters used in that session, so its all ready to power down in the morning.
And I have done this several times using both EKOS and NINA and has seemed okay.

But, last night was going to be clear according to CO so started to image IC443 and set up a sequence to loop Ha, OIII and SII images till around 4:00 am and then to shut the flat panel turn on the heater in the panel, wait a while and then do the flats.
But once again CO let me down and despite suggesting the evening would be cloudless until 5:00 am around midnight I heard the beeping from laptop to say PHD had lost its star and got up to see almost full cloud cover.

I had managed a few images so decided to stop imaging but to jump to the flats in the sequencer (NINA) but when it attempted to take flats they were awful and did not look like my normal flats at all.
Now it was a very cold night and very humid and when I went out to see what was happening I think I can see the issue.

• Due to angle of scope the flat panel when open was pointing pretty much up to the heavens.
• Dew was condensing and made the flat panel face very wet indeed.
•   When the flat panel shut it then just dumped all this water on the scope front lens which then pooled to the lower part of the front lens.
• This caused the light form the panel to be very unevenly distributed.
• When I looked there was still a fair but of water on the flat panel so there must have been loads on it before it shut.

How to stop this I am not fully sure yet, I guess there are things I can do to help the situation.

• Before closing the panel move scope to some position to let most of the water run off.
• Then after a delay to let the water run off maybe move scope again to a position where scope is near the meridian so that when flap closes any remaining water will run down and not get dumped directly on the lens.
• Turn light on, that may heat the panel up a little at least and turn the flap heater on for some time but may need 20 to 30 mins or so as I do not think it is that effective.
• Then start the flats sequence.

Steve

[scotty38]

Bit late to the party but only just saw this post and my panel hasn't arrived yet... Is the answer as simple as treating the panel the same as the scope and having the heater on as you would the dew heater? I am, sort of, making a bold assumption that the scope would have also been wet through without the aid of dew heaters????

Hoping you say yes as I don't need anything else to whittle about as I bought this partly to be able to automate "covering up" once imaging was complete so don't want the "cover up" to actually make matters worse 🙂

[teoria_del_big_bang]

In my opinion no it will not help because the heater is in the bit that clamps to the scope and not in the light panel flap itself so all it will do is heat the end of the dew shield on the scope and water can still collect on the flat panel when open and it will all depend where the scope is pointing to whether the majority of the dew drips off because it is vertical or stays on because it is close to horizontal with light side pointing somewhere upwards. So I guess if the scope is heading towards the horizon and the panel is such that it is near the top of the scopes dew shield this will happen.
Does this make any sense so far ????

Now maybe because the scope is generally ending up pointing generally to the west side (as that is the way it tracks through the night) there is a better position I can clamp the panel so it is very unlikely to end up facing upwards I still have to look at this.

Other things you can do is to park the scope horizontally (like many do to ensure it misses the roll on roll off roof when it closes) and then ensure the panel is such that the light side is facing doen and I would think that and the fast slew will know most of any dew off.
 

I must add that this night it happened it was very humid and dew everywhere so maybe quite a rare occurrence but on the whole I am really thinking the heater is a total waste of time although all similar flap panels must have the same issue not just this one, unless some do have a heater around the light itself.

Steve

[scotty38]

Ah, must admit I was assuming the heater was behind the panel..... The rest makes sense yes.... The way that I will need to orient my panel means that, most of the time, it will be more vertical than horizontal so hopefully be less of an issue under extreme circumstances but we shall see....

[Navvar]

On 11/02/2022 at 12:48, teoria_del_big_bang said:

Just a bit of an update on the flat panel.

In general still very pleased and its functioning well.

One caveat, one of my aims was to be able to put the flat frames at the end of a sequence to take all flats for all filters used in that session, so its all ready to power down in the morning.
And I have done this several times using both EKOS and NINA and has seemed okay.

But, last night was going to be clear according to CO so started to image IC443 and set up a sequence to loop Ha, OIII and SII images till around 4:00 am and then to shut the flat panel turn on the heater in the panel, wait a while and then do the flats.
But once again CO let me down and despite suggesting the evening would be cloudless until 5:00 am around midnight I heard the beeping from laptop to say PHD had lost its star and got up to see almost full cloud cover.

I had managed a few images so decided to stop imaging but to jump to the flats in the sequencer (NINA) but when it attempted to take flats they were awful and did not look like my normal flats at all.
Now it was a very cold night and very humid and when I went out to see what was happening I think I can see the issue.

• Due to angle of scope the flat panel when open was pointing pretty much up to the heavens.
• Dew was condensing and made the flat panel face very wet indeed.
•   When the flat panel shut it then just dumped all this water on the scope front lens which then pooled to the lower part of the front lens.
• This caused the light form the panel to be very unevenly distributed.
• When I looked there was still a fair but of water on the flat panel so there must have been loads on it before it shut.

How to stop this I am not fully sure yet, I guess there are things I can do to help the situation.

• Before closing the panel move scope to some position to let most of the water run off.
• Then after a delay to let the water run off maybe move scope again to a position where scope is near the meridian so that when flap closes any remaining water will run down and not get dumped directly on the lens.
• Turn light on, that may heat the panel up a little at least and turn the flap heater on for some time but may need 20 to 30 mins or so as I do not think it is that effective.
• Then start the flats sequence.

Steve

Sorry for bumping an old thread, but I have the DSD flat panel (without heater) on order and was curious how it's held up for you so far in terms of dew-buildup, and if you've found a solution to deal with the issue. It's the only thing I'm worried about with this product, and I almost jumped the gun and got it with the heater before I learned that it sat on the clamp side instead of in the LED panel side, which I found a bit confusing given the description on the product page: ''For those with humid conditions, we are also offering an optional accessory – built in heater, which can dry up the dew off the LED panel.''.

[teoria_del_big_bang]

Hi,

In short I really haven't had an issue with dew apart from very early on.
I would agree that whilst I love the flat panel and it has made taking flats a dream the heater is a waste of time and you are better saving your money not getting one.
Things I have done to stop the initial dew problem I had whereby the dew collected on the face of the open flat panel and when I then closed it to take flats it dumped all the water on my lens are as follows:-

1. When ready to take flats first turn on the light at maximum intensity to warm up the panel a bit.
2. Move scope to a set position where you know any water on the panel will drop off as the light faces down.
3. Wait a descent length of time for water to naturally fall off and any remaining to evaporate with heat generated by the full intensity leds.
4. Then close adjust intensity as needed and start the flats.

If you can do this then I am sure there will be no issue with dumping the dew on your telescope lens.
You can probably do this with many  sequencing programs out there but I now use NINA and wit the advance sequencer this is a doddle and one created can just be added to the end of any other imaging sequence very easily.

Steve

[Navvar]

On 19/11/2022 at 23:01, teoria_del_big_bang said:

Hi,

In short I really haven't had an issue with dew apart from very early on.
I would agree that whilst I love the flat panel and it has made taking flats a dream the heater is a waste of time and you are better saving your money not getting one.
Things I have done to stop the initial dew problem I had whereby the dew collected on the face of the open flat panel and when I then closed it to take flats it dumped all the water on my lens are as follows:-

1. When ready to take flats first turn on the light at maximum intensity to warm up the panel a bit.
2. Move scope to a set position where you know any water on the panel will drop off as the light faces down.
3. Wait a descent length of time for water to naturally fall off and any remaining to evaporate with heat generated by the full intensity leds.
4. Then close adjust intensity as needed and start the flats.

If you can do this then I am sure there will be no issue with dumping the dew on your telescope lens.
You can probably do this with many  sequencing programs out there but I now use NINA and wit the advance sequencer this is a doddle and one created can just be added to the end of any other imaging sequence very easily.

Steve

Thanks for the info, much appreciated.

Do you think you'd be able to take darks with it in the daytime in a low-light environment? In other words, not in complete darkness like in a fridge or whatever.

[teoria_del_big_bang]

9 hours ago, Navvar said:

Thanks for the info, much appreciated.

Do you think you'd be able to take darks with it in the daytime in a low-light environment? In other words, not in complete darkness like in a fridge or whatever.

No,  definitely not. It does not seal fully and there will be some amount of light leak.

TBH I wouldn't even take darks with it on a night time,
Light leak will probably be small but there will be some even at night.
In a dark room it "Probably" would be okay but as you only take darks once every few months (a year for me) I just remove the flat panel and fit the scope end cap and then at night in a dark room (garage in my case) take a whole library of darks at different exposure lengths I am likely to use, including some 3 and 4 second ones I will use for the master flats, and then thats it for another year. It may take a whole night, even two, but not a big hassle as they are done with a NINA schedule so can be just left to do its thing.

Steve