new Sony CMOS sensor with double the light gathering capability?

[Knight of Clear Skies]

https://petapixel.com/2021/12/16/sony-unveils-groundbreaking-cmos-sensor-that-gathers-twice-the-light/?fbclid=IwAR0VQut5dBD2YgvBGul0I9-6wGqpkDgUvE8C0iUoaHSw2IQKNDeV8sC6FnE

"Sony explains that typical image sensors place photodiodes and pixel transistors on the same substrate, but in this new design, it was able to separate them onto different substrate layers. The result is a sensor that approximately doubles the saturation signal level — basically its light gathering capability — which dramatically improves the dynamic range and reduces the noise."

[ollypenrice]

I've no idea what a smartphone is but this sounds like good news for astrophotographers...

😁lly

[Alien 13]

Makes you wonder how far CMOS cameras will go, am assuming we are already past the "break point" vs CCD.

Alan

[Clarkey]

36 minutes ago, Knight of Clear Skies said:

doubles the saturation signal level

And the price😁

[ollypenrice]

51 minutes ago, Clarkey said:

And the price😁

...but CMOS has undercut CCD and astrophotographers will pay what it takes...

lly

[michael.h.f.wilkinson]

It almost sounded like double the sensitivity, but given the 85% maximum QE of some sensors, that isn't possible. A higher well depth is very nice, of course. It would benefit the sensors with small pixels most, I suppose.

[Clarkey]

1 hour ago, ollypenrice said:

astrophotographers will pay what it takes.

That's why we are all poor😭

[vlaiv]

Why exactly is "dynamic range" and full well capacity important in astro imaging?

[tomato]

26 minutes ago, vlaiv said:

Why exactly is "dynamic range" and full well capacity important in astro imaging?

I’m fairly certain you can give us an idea, but in the meantime I’ve found this:

https://skyandtelescope.org/astronomy-blogs/imaging-foundations-richard-wright/astrophotography-bits-bytes-dynamic-range/

 

[ONIKKINEN]

Probably more geared towards smaller pixel sizes, which do suffer from small fullwell? Maybe smartphone cameras could become closer to the performance of bigger sensors? I couldn't care less about the fullwell in my camera though as i use about 1% of the available fullwell for signal excluding starcores.

[vlaiv]

6 minutes ago, tomato said:

I’m fairly certain you can give us an idea, but in the meantime I’ve found this:

https://skyandtelescope.org/astronomy-blogs/imaging-foundations-richard-wright/astrophotography-bits-bytes-dynamic-range/

 

Well - they are not

Many people thing that having bigger full well capacity makes camera better - but it does not really. Dynamic range is just extension of that - FWC divided with read noise.

In AP - these concepts are related to stacks and not single exposure. If we imaged objects with single exposures and did not stack - then yes, FWC and dynamic range would be important. They are important in daytime photography because of that - almost all images are taken as single shots.

With stacking - we control dynamic range. We can choose what sort of exposures we stack so we can have any FWC we choose in final stack. We can also have any dynamic range we choose in final stack (given enough imaging time of course).

That is why 12bit cameras work every bit as good as 14bit or 16bit cameras in AP images they produce.

[pete_l]

From the press release:

Sony says. “By increasing amp transistor size, Sony succeeded in substantially reducing the noise to which nighttime and other dark-location images are prone.”

So for astro use, the main benefit is lower noise. Does that mean non-cooled cameras will produce better results? Hopefully. Does it mean we can dispense with cooling? Probably not.

However, the main thrust of this development seems to be the tiny little sensors used in phones. Whether the technology will feed through to decently sized sensors is unknown.

Edited December 18, 2021 by pete_l

[vlaiv]

2 hours ago, pete_l said:

Sony says. “By increasing amp transistor size, Sony succeeded in substantially reducing the noise to which nighttime and other dark-location images are prone.”

I see that being nothing more than marketing statement. In most nighttime and dark-location images that they refer to, main source of noise is shot noise.

If they managed to lower read noise, then yes, that is accomplishment - but more interesting to planetary / lucky imaging approach scene then to deep sky / long exposure. With read noise around 1.5e already - DSO imagers can't really complain much.

Lowering dark current / dark noise is again not very useful - neither to long exposure AP nor for lucky imaging. First use cooling, second use short exposures.

I never thought that dark current is main issue with non cooled cameras - for me, it is always lack of set point temperature and problems with dark calibration resulting from it.