A pleasant hour in Sagittarius

[MercianDabbler]

I've been keeping an eye on the weather over the new moon period hoping to point the scope at Sagittarius but it's been pretty much wall to wall cloud... until last night.

I had a wander around the garden about 10:30PM to scout for a good spot. A couple of spots that I'd used earlier in the year are now more obscured by foliage or in one case by some squash plants that have spread a couple of yards into the surrounding grass. One previous spot also now seems to be in direct line of sight of a street lamp, presumably because some neighbouring trees have been cut. Eventually I found a small patch of grass at the very end of the garden which offered a view to the south which was relatively free of trees and houses. It's definitely a grab and go spot - I dont think there would be enough space there for the big tripod and me.

I dug out the ST80 and went out just after 11:30PM. The sky was still visibly bright but Antares was visible but very flickery. I could not see the main stars of Sagittarius by naked eye so it was largely a matter of fitting a longish eypiece (I went for the 26mm Meade S4000 because I like it), pointing the scope in the general direction, and trying to figure things out by comparing with Stellarium on the tablet. Not ideal but I quickly happened on an area busy with stars. A hint of nebulosity was visible in spite of the lack of proper darkness. Checking Stellarium showed this to be the Lagoon Nebula (M8). The 15mm SLV and 9mm DeLite both provided good views. I also had a try with a UHC filter on the 26mm and this also made a nice view but in general I'm still not a huge fan of the filtered view.

An short move upwards from the Lagoon Nebula took me to the stars in the Trifid Nebula (M20). I can't honestly say that I could see any nebulosity there.

Stellarium showed a couple of globulars nearby - NGC 6544 and 6533. I thought the second might be within reach. Finding the spot was easy enough but I could not see the cluster. Looking again now I think I may have misread the magnitude as 6.3 instead of 8.3.

By now I could just about make out some of the main stars of the 'teapot' but it was not high enough to discern the full shape or figure out which star was which. I pointed the ST80 at one and figured out that it was Nunki. From there I hopped to Namalsadirah and then over to Al Thalimain at the top of the 'lid'. From here it was easy to find M22 with the nearby tight grouping of 4 stars including 24 Sgr helping with the identification.

The next move was up to Polis ... more by trial and error rather than hopping because the stars in between are pretty dim. From here it was easy to get to the Small Sagittarius Star Cloud (M24).

I packed up just after 12:30 so only an hour of observing time and I probably missed a bunch of good stuff but most enjoyable to be out again.

Edited July 15, 2021 by MercianDabbler
more typos

[John]

Great report - lovely night last night !

 

[Kon]

Excellent report and a lot of nice targets. Well done.

[Epick Crom]

Enjoyable report! The Sagittarius region is an observers paradise. Wishing you more clear skies

[MercianDabbler]

Clear Outside was showing green last night and the moon set around midnight so I decided to head out again with the ST80.

My initial impression when I saw the glow in the sky was that it was cloudy but looking at the sky there were no clouds so I pressed on.

Once again it was a matter of pointing in the general direction of Sagittarius and then trying to figure out what I was looking at, helped somewhat by it being fresh in my mind from the previous night.

I'd written a longer list of targets beforehand, partly helped by the post by @SuburbanMak .

The first target was M28 starting from Al Thalimain. I think I had spotted this the previous night but had not noted it. On the second attempt I really struggled to find it with the 26mm eyepiece, I think because of the glow. Plugging in the 15mm SLV and 9mm DeLite I was eventually convinced that I'd seen it but it took some time.

My main targets were the Eagle (M16) and Swan/Omega (M17) Nebulas. After the difficulty of finding M28 I was not optimistic but I pressed on and found Polis and then M24 where I'd been the previous night. From there it was straightforward to hop upwards to the location of M17. I suspected a smudge so decided to try the UHC filter. I was quite impressed on this occasion by how much clearer it made the nebula. It still wasnt stunning but at least there was no doubt that I was seeing it. I upped the magnification by using the 15mm SLV and 9mm DeLite, swapping the filter each time.

Not wanting to faff further with the filter I then tried to hop up to M16 with the 9mm DeLite fitted. I locked the azimuth on the tripod almost directly upwards and found the Eagle nebula easily.

I finished of by removing the filter and looking for the nearby NGC 6604 and NGC 6605. I certainly found the locations of both but I'd need to recheck what they are supposed to look like and how big they are - neither location looked particularly distinctive to me.

The sky was still looking very hazy and I still could not reliably make out the main stars of Sagittarius so I decided to pack up by around 00:35 rather than pressing on with more targets. While carrying the gear back to the house I was rewarded with the sight of a bright meteor arcing across the sky. It seemed to come from the general direction of Casseopeia. Jupiter was also hanging in the sky so I couldn't resist a quick look at it and Saturn with the 10x50s before locking up and heading for bed.

[Pixies]

9 minutes ago, MercianDabbler said:

Clear Outside was showing green last night and the moon set around midnight so I decided to head out again with the ST80.

My initial impression when I saw the glow in the sky was that it was cloudy but looking at the sky there were no clouds so I pressed on.

Once again it was a matter of pointing in the general direction of Sagittarius and then trying to figure out what I was looking at, helped somewhat by it being fresh in my mind from the previous night.

I'd written a longer list of targets beforehand, partly helped by the post by @SuburbanMak .

The first target was M28 starting from Al Thalimain. I think I had spotted this the previous night but had not noted it. On the second attempt I really struggled to find it with the 26mm eyepiece, I think because of the glow. Plugging in the 15mm SLV and 9mm DeLite I was eventually convinced that I'd seen it but it took some time.

My main targets were the Eagle (M16) and Swan/Omega (M17) Nebulas. After the difficulty of finding M28 I was not optimistic but I pressed on and found Polis and then M24 where I'd been the previous night. From there it was straightforward to hop upwards to the location of M17. I suspected a smudge so decided to try the UHC filter. I was quite impressed on this occasion by how much clearer it made the nebula. It still wasnt stunning but at least there was no doubt that I was seeing it. I upped the magnification by using the 15mm SLV and 9mm DeLite, swapping the filter each time.

Not wanting to faff further with the filter I then tried to hop up to M16 with the 9mm DeLite fitted. I locked the azimuth on the tripod almost directly upwards and found the Eagle nebula easily.

I finished of by removing the filter and looking for the nearby NGC 6604 and NGC 6605. I certainly found the locations of both but I'd need to recheck what they are supposed to look like and how big they are - neither location looked particularly distinctive to me.

The sky was still looking very hazy and I still could not reliably make out the main stars of Sagittarius so I decided to pack up by around 00:35 rather than pressing on with more targets. While carrying the gear back to the house I was rewarded with the sight of a bright meteor arcing across the sky. It seemed to come from the general direction of Casseopeia. Jupiter was also hanging in the sky so I couldn't resist a quick look at it and Saturn with the 10x50s before locking up and heading for bed.

Sounds very much like my experience last night. Transparency in that direction was poor and it was a fight just to find things. A lot of moisture in the air.

[Swithin StCleeve]

One thing I like about these observation reports is the tales of failures and 'almost seens'. We've all been there, and it's almost as interesting reading about what people tried to see and failed, as it is about what they've seen. It's good to know other people have the same fustrations as me. 

"Is that it? I'm in the right place!! But is that it?"

I get that all the time.

[MercianDabbler]

9 hours ago, Pixies said:

Sounds very much like my experience last night. Transparency in that direction was poor and it was a fight just to find things. A lot of moisture in the air.

Thanks. It wasn't just me then. I'm never very sure whether my assessment of conditions (good or bad) are accurate or whether it is just me trying to find excuses.

9 hours ago, Swithin StCleeve said:

One thing I like about these observation reports is the tales of failures and 'almost seens'. We've all been there, and it's almost as interesting reading about what people tried to see and failed, as it is about what they've seen. It's good to know other people have the same fustrations as me. 

"Is that it? I'm in the right place!! But is that it?"

I get that all the time.

Thanks, I completely agree. That is one of the good things about this part of the forum. It's good to know the boundaries of what might be doable with a given setup and find out from others what is easy and what is not. I also regularly use it to steal ideas for my next target list. One thing that I would like to find is a set of images of DSOs that show what they look like visually through a small scope... knowing how Hubble sees them is very interesting but does not always help with nailing the identification.

[Pixies]

56 minutes ago, MercianDabbler said:

Thanks. It wasn't just me then. I'm never very sure whether my assessment of conditions (good or bad) are accurate or whether it is just me trying to find excuses.

Thanks, I completely agree. That is one of the good things about this part of the forum. It's good to know the boundaries of what might be doable with a given setup and find out from others what is easy and what is not. I also regularly use it to steal ideas for my next target list. One thing that I would like to find is a set of images of DSOs that show what they look like visually through a small scope... knowing how Hubble sees them is very interesting but does not always help with nailing the identification.

I often do a Google image search for a sketch of the target using a similar scope. You often get pics from C.N., DeepSkywatch and ASOD which are pretty indicative. For example, for M17: 

(image copied with all rights to Michael Rector - CN.)

[wookie1965]

Great report really enjoyed the read. 

[SuburbanMak]

Nice reports and glad mine was of use.  
Its a fantastic area of the sky - going out for another look tonight & no work tomorrow, fingers crossed for good conditions… 

[SuburbanMak]

57 minutes ago, Pixies said:

I often do a Google image search for a sketch of the target using a similar scope. You often get pics from C.N., DeepSkywatch and ASOD which are pretty indicative. For example, for M17: 

(image copied with all rights to Michael Rector - CN.)

Agree - the Hubble and amazing AP images are stunning but not always helpful in at the eyepiece identification. 
 

I just bought “Observing the Messier Objects with a Small Telescope” an e-Book by Philip Pugh in which he describes and illustrates the view with 70mm Bins and a Mak 127 (same as mine).  Am finding that a really useful prep resource. 
 

Also Stephen O’Meara’s “The Messier Objects”  is great too for realistic tips. 

[MercianDabbler]

1 hour ago, Pixies said:

I often do a Google image search for a sketch of the target using a similar scope. You often get pics from C.N., DeepSkywatch and ASOD which are pretty indicative. For example, for M17: 

Thanks. Looks somewhat similar to what I saw. I will give search strategy a try in future.

50 minutes ago, SuburbanMak said:

fingers crossed for good conditions… 

Cloudy here. Still... I could use some sleep.

39 minutes ago, SuburbanMak said:

I just bought “Observing the Messier Objects with a Small Telescope” an e-Book by Philip Pugh in which he describes and illustrates the view with 70mm Bins and a Mak 127 (same as mine).  Am finding that a really useful prep resource. 
 

Also Stephen O’Meara’s “The Messier Objects”  is great too for realistic tips.

Cheers, I will check those out.

[jock1958]

23 hours ago, MercianDabbler said:

Clear Outside was showing green last night and the moon set around midnight so I decided to head out again with the ST80.

My initial impression when I saw the glow in the sky was that it was cloudy but looking at the sky there were no clouds so I pressed on.

Once again it was a matter of pointing in the general direction of Sagittarius and then trying to figure out what I was looking at, helped somewhat by it being fresh in my mind from the previous night.

I'd written a longer list of targets beforehand, partly helped by the post by @SuburbanMak .

The first target was M28 starting from Al Thalimain. I think I had spotted this the previous night but had not noted it. On the second attempt I really struggled to find it with the 26mm eyepiece, I think because of the glow. Plugging in the 15mm SLV and 9mm DeLite I was eventually convinced that I'd seen it but it took some time.

My main targets were the Eagle (M16) and Swan/Omega (M17) Nebulas. After the difficulty of finding M28 I was not optimistic but I pressed on and found Polis and then M24 where I'd been the previous night. From there it was straightforward to hop upwards to the location of M17. I suspected a smudge so decided to try the UHC filter. I was quite impressed on this occasion by how much clearer it made the nebula. It still wasnt stunning but at least there was no doubt that I was seeing it. I upped the magnification by using the 15mm SLV and 9mm DeLite, swapping the filter each time.

Not wanting to faff further with the filter I then tried to hop up to M16 with the 9mm DeLite fitted. I locked the azimuth on the tripod almost directly upwards and found the Eagle nebula easily.

I finished of by removing the filter and looking for the nearby NGC 6604 and NGC 6605. I certainly found the locations of both but I'd need to recheck what they are supposed to look like and how big they are - neither location looked particularly distinctive to me.

The sky was still looking very hazy and I still could not reliably make out the main stars of Sagittarius so I decided to pack up by around 00:35 rather than pressing on with more targets. While carrying the gear back to the house I was rewarded with the sight of a bright meteor arcing across the sky. It seemed to come from the general direction of Casseopeia. Jupiter was also hanging in the sky so I couldn't resist a quick look at it and Saturn with the 10x50s before locking up and heading for bed.

Thanks for those reports. I’m totally unfamiliar with this part of the sky as it’s usually too low from my garden, anyway with my Tak FC-100DL & 24mm panoptic I used the stars in Ophiuchus as pointers and managed to locate open clusters  M23 & M25 (I think?) but like you said couldn’t discern the shape of the tea pot, I think it was too low and seeing at that altitude wasn’t the best. 
I shall return to this area in the next few days whilst the weathers good and hopefully bag some those nebulas! 

[Spile]

Targets in and around Antares are very seductive and appealing  - Turn Left at Orion temps us with a fair few.

However a combination of short nights and low position make these summer targets very frustrating for me in the North. 

[MercianDabbler]

11 hours ago, jock1958 said:

Thanks for those reports. I’m totally unfamiliar with this part of the sky as it’s usually too low from my garden, anyway with my Tak FC-100DL & 24mm panoptic I used the stars in Ophiuchus as pointers and managed to locate open clusters  M23 & M25 (I think?) but like you said couldn’t discern the shape of the tea pot, I think it was too low and seeing at that altitude wasn’t the best. 
I shall return to this area in the next few days whilst the weathers good and hopefully bag some those nebulas! 

Good luck with it. The Eagle and Swan are higher than the others so should be a good bet. The Lagoon was also pretty clear when I looked. I do think there is an extra attraction for objects that only pop up over the horizon for a few months, particularly Sagittarius... and I also got quite a kick out of finding M104 from my garden earlier in the year.

In the past my efforts in Sagittarius have been confined to trying to take a nice Milky Way photo but that involves making a trip to somewhere where the landscape to the south will make a nice picture. Lockdown has forced me to re-acquaint myself with the possibilities of my own garden and that has been a good thing. Sagittarius from the garden is something I have not tried before. My 'window' to the south is quite restricted and the foreground would certainly not make for a good landscape photo. It is also limited time-wise for any given object so I won't be making any 6 hour exposures in that direction but it is better than nothing. Using a lightweight setup also helps both with finding the best 'angle' and also allowing me to set up and pack away quickly when time is short or conditions are changeable.

[MercianDabbler]

I went out again last night with the ST80 just before midnight. It was still very hazy. A passing plane part way through the session confirmed this, its lights making a visible beam through the sky ahead of it. It was also very warm - I'd donned long trousers and long sleeves to try to protect against the insects which I could hear whining around me from time to time. It's an odd experience to be out with the scope and feeling too hot. The only comfort was that I knew I would be even hotter if I was indoors.

Once again I could make out very little by eye anywhere near the horizon so it was a matter of figuring out where I was by comparing with Stellarium. From memory (and a local tree) I managed to find myself in the handle of the teapot straight away. I'd hoped to have a crack at M54 but it was in the said local tree. I had another attempt at it later in the evening but the haze was too overpowering at this low altitude.

Next on the list was M25, stopping by M22 on the way up. M25 was straightforward enough to find but it still took a bit of peering before I was confident that I was seeing anything like a cluster in the relevant spot. Trying to fill a gap from the target list from previous nights, I tried M23 next. I can't record this one as a success in spite of being sure that I was seeing the nearby open ended loop of stars. Looking at Stellarium now it seems pretty spread out so that in combination with the haze would probably explain why I could not pick it up.

My next move was to pan further to the right and head over to Ophiucus. The initial objective was simply not to lose track of where I was. NGC6536 was pretty much at the same altitude so that became my first target. I found the spot but could not see the cluster. Nearby M9 is listed as even fainter so was rejected as a target and instead I decided to aim for M10 and M12. I panned over and slightly upwards by guesstimation to reach Saik. From there to M12 the stars are not very distinctive but it's not far off a vertical pan so that's what I tried. I got distracted by a satellite that appeared on Stellarium and then in the eyepiece so slightly lost my way in the star field. Trying to find my position again I spotted a rectangular pattern of 5 stars that looked like the '6' on a dice with one middle spot missing. Only four of the five were shown by Stellarium on the tablet but it was clear enough to see that I was close to the cluster. Following one diagonal of the rectangle brought me to the cluster which was visible in the 26mm eyepiece and also in the 15mm and 9mm ones. From there it was a straightforward hop to M10 which again was an easy enough spot.

I rounded the evening off by shifting the scope closer to the house and enjoying some nice views of Jupiter and Saturn. I was back indoors by 1:30. Sure enough it was hotter!

[jock1958]

On 18/07/2021 at 09:53, MercianDabbler said:

I went out again last night with the ST80 just before midnight. It was still very hazy. A passing plane part way through the session confirmed this, its lights making a visible beam through the sky ahead of it. It was also very warm - I'd donned long trousers and long sleeves to try to protect against the insects which I could hear whining around me from time to time. It's an odd experience to be out with the scope and feeling too hot. The only comfort was that I knew I would be even hotter if I was indoors.

Once again I could make out very little by eye anywhere near the horizon so it was a matter of figuring out where I was by comparing with Stellarium. From memory (and a local tree) I managed to find myself in the handle of the teapot straight away. I'd hoped to have a crack at M54 but it was in the said local tree. I had another attempt at it later in the evening but the haze was too overpowering at this low altitude.

Next on the list was M25, stopping by M22 on the way up. M25 was straightforward enough to find but it still took a bit of peering before I was confident that I was seeing anything like a cluster in the relevant spot. Trying to fill a gap from the target list from previous nights, I tried M23 next. I can't record this one as a success in spite of being sure that I was seeing the nearby open ended loop of stars. Looking at Stellarium now it seems pretty spread out so that in combination with the haze would probably explain why I could not pick it up.

My next move was to pan further to the right and head over to Ophiucus. The initial objective was simply not to lose track of where I was. NGC6536 was pretty much at the same altitude so that became my first target. I found the spot but could not see the cluster. Nearby M9 is listed as even fainter so was rejected as a target and instead I decided to aim for M10 and M12. I panned over and slightly upwards by guesstimation to reach Saik. From there to M12 the stars are not very distinctive but it's not far off a vertical pan so that's what I tried. I got distracted by a satellite that appeared on Stellarium and then in the eyepiece so slightly lost my way in the star field. Trying to find my position again I spotted a rectangular pattern of 5 stars that looked like the '6' on a dice with one middle spot missing. Only four of the five were shown by Stellarium on the tablet but it was clear enough to see that I was close to the cluster. Following one diagonal of the rectangle brought me to the cluster which was visible in the 26mm eyepiece and also in the 15mm and 9mm ones. From there it was a straightforward hop to M10 which again was an easy enough spot.

I rounded the evening off by shifting the scope closer to the house and enjoying some nice views of Jupiter and Saturn. I was back indoors by 1:30. Sure enough it was hotter!

Went out again on Saturday night and weapons of choice were my 4" Tak FC-100DL, 31mm TV Nag, TV bandmate UHC filter, Sky & Telescope pocket atlas & Turn Left at Orion,  using the lower line of stars in Ophiuchus as pointers I quickly found the M17 Swan then panned down through the open clusters of M23 & M25 to the M8 Lagoon. The UHC filter makes a big difference and apart from making these targets much easier to spot they also show off the nebulosity extremely nicely, the only flies in the ointment were the low angle, quarter moon, neighbours house and relatively poor seeing etc etc!

Thanks again for your tips and inspiration I shall return to this area asap.

Edited July 19, 2021 by jock1958

[MercianDabbler]

I'll tag these words onto the end of this thread because at the moment they are looking like an isolated spell of clear skies. Clear Outside was looking decidedly amber but the skies were pretty clear before dark and the clarity continued after the 10 O'clock News so I headed out.

First target was M23 on which I'd not been successful last time. I sturggled a bit more to find my bearings initially but eventually managed to identify the top two stars of the teapot handle and hop upwards from there. I managed to lose my way at the first attempt and had to go back to the beginning but finally managed to alight at the crescent of stars just west of M23. The Meade S4000 26mm was showing just one star in the right place (which I had seen last time too) with a suspicion of a smudge but I was not convinced. I scanned around the surrounding stars to confirm that I really was in the correct spot and then upped the magnification. The 15mm SLV and 9mm DeLite both showed the smudge with some averted vision so I was finally happy that this was indeed M23 but it was hardly an easy spot.

Next target was M26 in Scutum. For this I scanned back across to the Small Sagittarius Star Cloud and M25 and then up to find the west edge of Scutum. I moved up the west edge to alpha and then east to find the stars near M26. Finding the spot went quite smootly but again it took me a while and a few eyepiece changes to convince myself that I had picked up the cluster.

Now I decided to shift the scope and explore some different parts of the sky. I dont have a record of having seen M103 in Casseopeia so I gave that one a go. It was very refreshing to be looking at a higher altitude and having no difficulty seeing stars by naked eye or navigating my way around. Finding the spot for M103 was no problem at all and I couls see several stars in the area but I gather they are foreground stars and not part of the cluster. I think another visit will be needed.

I'd also promised myself a visit to M81 and M82 having not been there for some time. They are an easy enough hop from Dubhe but are in the worst part of the sky for light pollution for me. The sky was also starting to brighten as the Moon was coming into play. I eventually picked up M81 but it was a pretty indistinct view and I managed to suspect M82 so eventually decided to move on.

I keep trying to split Epsilon Lyrae with the ST80 so I had another try. It was a pretty folorn hope. I'm not sure whether the sky conditions were good or bad but the main challenge was the altitude and with either a 9mm or 6mm eyepiece I could not keep things steady enough to reliably get focus. I decided to finish off with M57. I put the 26mm eyepiece back on, got the bottom end of Lyra into view and M57 was easily visible... but only if you knew which spot it was. The 9mm DeLite showed it better but again stability was a problem so I plugged in the 15mm SLV which was a better compromise between being able to see that it wasn't a point source and having a view that would actually sit still for long enough.

By now it was getting near to 00:30 and the Moon was now peeping over the nearby houses and the sky was very much washed out. I did not  need the head torch while packing up. Having locked up I looked out of the window before turning in and saw a big sheet of cloud advancing across the whole sky and just about to cover the Moon so I think that packing up was the right move.