UltraWide AFOV Binoculars ?

[MotherEarth]

Can you recommend me some ultra wide AFOV binoculars ? They can be bulky, or expensive (£ 1000-£1500 let's say ) .The wider the AFOV the better. I would like 80, 90, 90+ degrees... and 15x + magnification if possible. I will use them on trepied

Are there any like that ? Thanks

Edited February 1, 2021 by MotherEarth

[Nakedgun]

My thinking is that AFOVs in that range would be your own ultra-wide ep set in one of those large aperture 45° or 90° monsters such as Markus Ludes has on his site. Not sure if you wouldn't get some vignetting, even then.

Good luck.

https://www.apm-telescopes.de/en/binoculars/giant-binoculars-100mm-aperture-more.html

[PeterW]

The APM angled binocular can allow you to use Naglers (Type6 work well, but have some distortions), the 12.5mm morpheus and 12.5mm APM ultrawide are well though if. Once you hit 75degrees or so the benefits get smaller, You can’t focus on the side edges as when your pupils move they offset from the exit pupils resulting in blackouts. Looking mainly into the field centre and not being bothered by the field stop is quite fun, day or night.

The trouble is that for lower powers the 1.25” eyepiece limitation means you’re stuck with 24mm panoptic/APM UFF/ES 68degree. The APM run around 30x with those very wide fields. The only 2” model is the 150 which is costly, you then need to find 2” ultrawide that fit your Pupil spacing... though someone did machine the body of some ethos down a bit on a lathe!!!

If you *have* to have the widest then the solution is the Nikon WX, amazing width and sharp at the edge, heavy brutes though. I’ve looked through one once..... wah!!

there are many 70+ degree old 7x35 Porros, some pretty good, the edges aren’t amazing and the eye relief can be quite short, but the views are nice,; zeiss and Swarovski are only now providing AFOV now and they’re not cheap!

feel free to ask more questions, I like my AFOV and use old Porros and an APM70.

 

peter

[MotherEarth]

How would you compare the following binoculars... ?Which one has better optics? Which one should I avoid? Any other achromatic binoculars with swapable eyepieces and aperture around 80mm I missed ?
Thanks

1)TS-Optics 82 mm Binoculars   https://www.teleskop-express.de/shop/product_info.php/info/p11233_TS-Optics-82-mm-Duplet-Binoculars---1-25--Eyepieces---45--angled-View.html
2)APM 82 mm achromatic Binoculars   https://www.teleskop-express.de/shop/product_info.php/info/p11216_APM-82-mm-achromatic-Binoculars---1-25-receptacles---45--angled-view.html
3)Vixen BT 81S-A    https://www.teleskop-express.de/shop/product_info.php/info/p8112_Vixen-BT-81S-A-Binokulares-Teleskop-mit-81-mm-Oeffnung.html
4) Explore Scientific BT-82 SFhttps://explorescientificusa.com/collections/giant-binoculars/products/bt-82-sf-large-binoculars-with-62-degree-ler-eyepieces
5)Oberwerk BT-82XL-ED    https://oberwerk.com/product/oberwerk-bt-82xl-ed-binocular-telescope/
6)Altair 100mm 45 Giant Observation Binoculars  https://www.altairastro.com/altair-100mm-45-giant-observation-binoculars-with-18mm-uf-eyepieces-16-p.asp
7)Orion GiantView BT-82   https://www.telescope.com/Orion/Orion-GiantView-BT-82-45-degree-Binocular-Telescope/rc/2160/p/132190.uts

Edited February 16, 2021 by MotherEarth

[PeterW]

The main differences are achromatic vs ED/SD, the latter giving sharper colour free views, those for general astronomy the differences are less than for high contrast daytime viewing. All of these have around f5.5 focal ratio and all are limited to 1.25” eyepieces, so 68degree field of view unless you use more magnification when you can move into Nagler width eyepieces. Is AFOV your driver or do you want to keep the exit pupil large for nebulae? Ideally I want large exit pupil and large AFOV, but there are many reasons this is not easy or common.

I’d check the rear prism clear diameter, I remember some being smaller and thus less able to fully illuminate the 24mm wide angle eyepieces. (Maybe weigh less too) The models you list are likely to be roughly equivalent, though a quick check of reviews will show which have greater following, though this might be biased by the time they’ve been available or their availability. There are also similar ones from Oberwerk, who have an EU outlet, though I think they are ED only and so more expensive for a given aperture than the ones you list.

For astro only I’d go 90degree so you can observe closer to the zenith, for daytime/nighttime id go for 45degree. The larger ones will need more robust tripods and tripod/yoke heads.

Peter

[Louis D]

I've got a few vintage 10 and 11 degree AFOV 7x35mm binoculars.  Amazing views, but almost negative eye relief.  They used aspheric lensed eyepieces to achieve really decent edge performance.

Why ultrawide binoculars in the first place?  You could try binoviewers on a refractor or even a binoscope as alternatives.

[MotherEarth]

1 hour ago, Louis D said:

I've got a few vintage 10 and 11 degree AFOV 7x35mm binoculars.  Amazing views, but almost negative eye relief.  They used aspheric lensed eyepieces to achieve really decent edge performance.

Why ultrawide binoculars in the first place?  You could try binoviewers on a refractor or even a binoscope as alternatives.

I'd like to take them with me on trips...so basically I want them for nature sighting too....But you got me thinking: maybe I need something for astro only...since whatever I'm gonna get I'm gonna use it for astronomy way more often than nature sighting

I was thinking about a short ED refractor+binoviewer+ wide field eyepieces before, btw...so I'm gonna give this some more thought and come back. Thanks guys

 

[John]

The giant binoculars which are great for astronomy and not much use for wildlife - their close focus range is too far away and they generally can't be hand held.

Personally I found 8x56 a good all round spec. I took a pair of these (Opticron's) on a trip to Australia a few years back and they proved good for wild life and had enough light grasp to be useful for astronomy as well. Very hand holdable as well

The true field of those is around 5 degrees I think.

 

[Louis D]

For cheap, get a 15x70 with 65 degree apparent field and about 17mm of eye relief.  They yield about a 4 degree TFOV.  They're fairly light and handy for grabbing quick higher powered views.  I use them both for astronomy and terrestrial targets.

[michael.h.f.wilkinson]

If you are willing to pay a lot of money, there is the Nikon WX 10x50, with 76.4° field of view at 15.4mm eye relief.

https://www.nikon.co.uk/en_GB/product/sport-optics/binoculars/wx/wx-10x50-if

A snip at £6,199.00

The Vixen Ascot 10x50 ZCF Super Wide sport an even more impressive 8.5° true FOV or 85° AFOV, but with just 7 mm eye relief.

https://global.vixen.co.jp/en/product/1552_00/

[Louis D]

9 minutes ago, michael.h.f.wilkinson said:

The Vixen Ascot 10x50 ZCF Super Wide sport an even more impressive 8.5° true FOV or 85° AFOV, but with just 7 mm eye relief.

https://global.vixen.co.jp/en/product/1552_00/

These seem to be discontinued.

[michael.h.f.wilkinson]

10 minutes ago, Louis D said:

These seem to be discontinued.

Alas, yes. They wouldn't suit me, however, with just 7 mm ER.  I will stick to my amazingly good Helios LightQuest 16x80s. Absolutely superb and about the same weight as the Helios Apollo 15x70s I had before.

[PeterW]

For Astro having angled binoculars is useful to avoid neck ache and the meed to buy ungainly parallelogram mounts.  

The bushnell rangemasters give nice wide 7x35 views. There is the tasco 124 7x50, though the edges ain’t too good. 
Large apparent field and large exit pupil,  for astronomy is a hard combination to find. 
The Ascot were not very good optically, unlike the WX which is just unreal in width and sharpness to the edge - heavy, expensive and bad eyecups, but optically the best.

 

Peter

[Louis D]

The SARD Mark 43 6x42mm binoculars are well regarded for long eye relief and wide field views.

[PeterW]

If you can find a pair at a sensible price... old glass has less good anti reflection coatings, though the views are impressive.

Peter

[MotherEarth]

Well, i forgot to mention that I've used a pair of celestron skymaster 15x70 before, for a while. But nothing serious, nothing methodical. Just moon, orions belt, plaiades and andromeda, occasionally...and nothing else much. I still have them but they're damaged. I had them since 2010...but I've rarely used them all this time.

 

My thought is that I still need binoculars, not a telescope.  I could still get a lot from a pair of binoculars ..learn the sky better, for example. Expecially if I get some 25x100 on a parallelogram mount. I haven't had any mount for the 15x70, and I should have. I would have used them much more often

 

What do you think...should I get a 25x 100 on a parallelogram mount, and get a telescope later, if I stick with observing? I see a lot of recommendations for Oberwerk 25x100 IF. Should I get them and see in a while ? They're not that expensive, and I'm not gonna make them redundant soon, even if i get a telescope later. I enjoy observing with both eyes a lot

 

So what's your thinking...get this binoculars to replace my 15x70, use them yo get better with the basics, and see later about telescope ? If so, what solid P-mo6nt should i get for them ?

 

Thanks

 

PS: I started the topic with big AFOV binoculars, but I got carried away...they're too expensive, and I want to keep costs around 1000 for now. I'll see later

Edited February 20, 2021 by MotherEarth

[PeterW]

The issue with straight trough binoculars is that the big ones need crazy big parallelogram mounts to use properly. I had some 25x100 on a heavy tripod, but it wasn’t easy to use and I sold them. The big angled binoculars are much more practical. If you want big binoculars then 10x50 or 16x70 or so and a monopod and reclining chair are a good bet, the APM ED series will give you very nice views.  Any binoculars will show a whole more stars and help you understand how things fit together. To see the smaller/fainter stuff get an 8” dobsonian to complement the binoculars, should fit the budget. Different sized optics with different fields of view will show different objects. In different ways. I have some 2x “constellation binoculars”, show me another magnitude or more of stars in my light polluted area. I quite often start observing with low powers (2-8x) so I can work out how to star hop to objects, moving to higher powers and smaller fields.... if you jump in with high powers it can be really tricky to know where you’re pointing. A zero power fund we or laser and very helpful to help you start star hopping from a known location.  Whatever you get, take it out a lot and take it to darker skies to see more.
 

peter

[MotherEarth]

The ED versions are too expensive for me right now. Even the 70mm ED version from the APM are 2000 euros. And although I know they're excellent, I don't want to spend that much.

I want to spend around 1000, bino+ mount. Thats why I was thinking Oberwerk 25x100+mount. I had the 15x70, and I'd like more magnification...especially since I want to get a mount now

 

So what should I get around £1000 ? another pair of 15x70 with mount ? Why not 25x100, or something in between ?

 

What avout some 20x80 ? I think there are good p-mounts for this. I read most of them are half the weight of 25x100 .

 

Your thoughts ?

Edited February 20, 2021 by MotherEarth

[PeterW]

The steadier you can mount binoculars the more stuff you will see with them. If you can find a well reviewed parallelogram mount then get whichever  sized bins fit it stably. Faint nebulae want larger exit pupils and larger apertures will show fainter stars, though  the number visible in one field of view  won’t change much... https://www.cloudynights.com/articles/cat/articles/binoculars1405754339/which-binoculars-will-give-you-maximum-star-counts-r88

I enjoy observing with a range of instruments, depends on what I want to see or how I want to observe it. I certainly use binoculars more than I did before, maybe as I’m mount them more stably or maybe because it’s easier to pop out with them for a short observing session.

peter

 

[SpaceWatcher]

Interesting option I saw in this months Sky & Telescope

The 2.1 x 42 Constellation Binoculars
almost half glasses half binoculars, very interesting looking
https://www.vixenoptics.co.uk/Pages/wide_field_binoculars.html

Magnification2.1x

Diameter42mm

CoatingsFully multi-coated

Eyerelief8.4mm*

Approx real FOV12.2°*

Approx apparent FOV25.2°*

Close focus2m

IPD55~74mm

Size46 x 128 x 54mm

Weight410g

 

[PeterW]

Many of us made our own with old Nikon teleconverters, Orion and many others sell similar models. Give the urban observer a welcome extra number of stars. 
Peter

[SpaceWatcher]

Hey Peter, great idea, I’ve actually got an old Nikon one in the loft from my (very) old slr, l’ll have to do some playing with it and if it works I’m off to eBay for another one 👍

[PeterW]

TCE-2 2x54 are the ticket, Plenty of posts on making them and 3dprinter files. The Orion is essentially the same, but with added focussing and a slightly different shape (bites my nose a bit more then the homebrew). 
unlike using mine with winged eyecups and lying on the ground so they can be used hands-free. You can add  2” Filters to the front with the right thread adapter. I have some circular polarisers which make looking at clouds on a sunny day quite fun.

Peter

[Chaz2b]

And don’t forget to get yourself a Bino Bandit, brilliant bit of kit.

https://www.firstlightoptics.com/all-binoculars/alpine-innovations-bino-bandit.html#

chaz

[Gemineyes]

I know that I am coming in a bit late here on this topic

One Option is a binotelescope and use a pair or UWA eyepieces. The pricetag will be significant, dep. on budget and available resources in the near future. 

The Vixen models are pretty nice from what I understand, though the lower priced models are NOT sealed against moisture incursion. At least on the outside prism side. I got a pair of APM 82mm SD APO 45 degree binos around 20 months ago and that is a while lot of fun, I must say!  Not inexpensive either, esp. when adding twin EPs to the mix. Using a set of ES82 8.5mm EPs, Jupiter looks pretty nice at 55x. My favorite is the ES82 14mm pair of EPs. They give me ~2.5 degrees at 33.5x - dig deep, and nothing but stars across the FOV!!! Wonderful experience! I have the 25x100ED APMs and love them too, but an earlier comment is correct, in order to use this kind of heavier instrument effectively, you need either a good parallelogram and tripod, or a good solid cradle or fork mount on a good tripod. Does limit super quick setups, but worth it when skies are really nice. I used to leave the 25x100IFs on my tripod with an eLLe single fork mount, and was able to grab it in a flash to do backyard fun. 

Having said ALL that, as with anything optical, the larger the magnification, the narrower the true field. Immersive effects can be had by larger apparent fields of the oculars, but there is a trade off optically (and physically w/our brain) that becomes counter productive in a way: I find 60-70 AFOV to be the sweet spot for me, but do enjoy the 82 and even on occasion 100 degree apparent fields. Realistically though, our eyes have best resolution in the +/- 30 or so degree range, and our retinal cone density drops off significantly beyond that. We only see peripherally and most sensitive to motion way beyond that range. 

So I guess the big question for those wanting MAX fields is WHY? To have an explosion of stars in the view almost overwhelming the observer? Or is it for the ability to see lots and extended objects more easily in an optical system? Just throwing that out there... 

CS all - FYI, Usually widest TRUE fields I have enjoyed are in the 8-9 true field range with smaller wide angle binos - tons of fun! Satellites and meteors crossing all over... lots of enjoyment, esp. in a darker site. 

GeminEyes

(Darren)