Trouble with observing

[LollipopNeb]

Hello I am new here, and been trying to figure out how to observe DSO. Firstly I will start with which scope I have, it is the Skyliner 250PX and I have eyepieces that range from 4mm, 10mm, 18mm and 25mm, also a 2x barlow. The issue I am having is that I search for easy DSO to observe (searched on Google), and when I point my scope in that direction I see nothing other than a white spot in the sky with no detail of the nebula/object to be seen. I have tried averted viewing, which I either am doing wrong or it is simply not working lol. Could I get any pointers how to see DSO while observing? I do not have the required equipment to do astrophotography. I live in Class 3 bortle skies, and I choose the nights wisely when to try observe to no avail. I try dark adapting my eyes too and letting the scope cooldown which seem to not help either. Thanks!

Does it literally need to be pitch black in the sky to see DSO while observing? Like where you can see the milkyway with the naked eye?

Edited July 28, 2020 by LollipopNeb

[Starwatcher2001]

What sort of time are you looking for the objects?  Right now it's hardly getting dark at all, and not favourable to seeing faint galaxies.  I'm assuming you've already successfully found and observed the brighter objects like planets, some star-clusters and doubles?  If not, give them a go first and that will give you confidence in finding things. (Sorry if you've been there and done that!)

What about globular clusters like M13, over there in Hercules?  You should be able to see that in your scope in the West after midnight, when the Sun and Moon have both cleared off. With a low power EP, it should look like a fuzzy snowball, and look quite nice with a higher power.

If you're okay with the above, and getting nice images, we can assume your scope's okay, your focusing is good, and you've got the hang of pointing it in the right place!

What happens if you try to observe M31 (Andromeda)?  Is the white spot you describe like a lighter smudge of grey, rather than a point of light? If that's the case, you've found it and the conditions are just not up to seeing it well. Andromeda is a massive object, but you should be able to see the core in your 10". It might be that it's not dark enough, or there's thin clouds overhead. Try bumping the scope gently, that sometimes helps make them pop out of the background.

I can't often see the Milky Way from my back yard (Bortle 7/8), but I can see some brighter galaxies, but without much structure or detail. I bet on a clear, properly dark night you'll see much more. Do be aware though that they won't look as nice as they do in the photographs, but with a little experience you'll hone your observings skills (like averted vision) and start to tease more detail out of the objects.

 

[LollipopNeb]

2 hours ago, Starwatcher2001 said:

What sort of time are you looking for the objects?  Right now it's hardly getting dark at all, and not favourable to seeing faint galaxies.  I'm assuming you've already successfully found and observed the brighter objects like planets, some star-clusters and doubles?  If not, give them a go first and that will give you confidence in finding things. (Sorry if you've been there and done that!)

What about globular clusters like M13, over there in Hercules?  You should be able to see that in your scope in the West after midnight, when the Sun and Moon have both cleared off. With a low power EP, it should look like a fuzzy snowball, and look quite nice with a higher power.

If you're okay with the above, and getting nice images, we can assume your scope's okay, your focusing is good, and you've got the hang of pointing it in the right place!

What happens if you try to observe M31 (Andromeda)?  Is the white spot you describe like a lighter smudge of grey, rather than a point of light? If that's the case, you've found it and the conditions are just not up to seeing it well. Andromeda is a massive object, but you should be able to see the core in your 10". It might be that it's not dark enough, or there's thin clouds overhead. Try bumping the scope gently, that sometimes helps make them pop out of the background.

I can't often see the Milky Way from my back yard (Bortle 7/8), but I can see some brighter galaxies, but without much structure or detail. I bet on a clear, properly dark night you'll see much more. Do be aware though that they won't look as nice as they do in the photographs, but with a little experience you'll hone your observings skills (like averted vision) and start to tease more detail out of the objects.

 

Thank you for your response. I start my observing from around 11pm through to 2-3am. That is usually best times in Denmark. I've managed to see Jupiter and Saturn to quite high detail in my scope, I have not seen any star clusters yet, I did try one night, pointing it in the rough direction but again, didn't see anything. I have also tried slewing through rough areas of DSO which gave no results, i did that just to see if i was just pointing in the wrong place. I tried viewing Andromeda, and all I had was the same typical white dot in the sky, I have collimated my mirrors with both the non laser and laser collimator and it is in perfect collimation, and I am able to gain focus on the white "dots" in the sky to very crisp focus. Next chance I get I will try some of your tips to see if my results are any better. Are there apps and such you recommend to find DSO locations? Right now I use skyview free/lite, I'm assuming it is not the app's fault in my failed attempts at finding targets? as it has pretty high ratings plus I'm assuming my scope is capable enough of seeing quite a few DSO? Thanks again.

[John]

Your scope is ideal for observing DSO's.

You do need to be able to point the scope precisely to the part of the sky that the DSO is located so your finder scope needs to be accurately aligned with the view though the main scope.

For finding and observing DSO's your lowest magnification eyepiece, the 25mm, is the one to use to start with.

Most DSO's do just look like faint misty patches or blobs though, especially in the Summer months when the sky does not get very dark.

A good book to get started is "Turn Left at Orion".

 

 

[LollipopNeb]

5 minutes ago, John said:

Your scope is ideal for observing DSO's.

You do need to be able to point the scope precisely to the part of the sky that the DSO is located so your finder scope needs to be accurately aligned with the view though the main scope.

For finding and observing DSO's your lowest magnification eyepiece, the 25mm, is the one to use to start with.

Most DSO's do just look like faint misty patches or blobs though, especially in the Summer months when the sky does not get very dark.

A good book to get started is "Turn Left at Orion".

 

 

Thank you for your response.

I have been doing that as you stated, pointing the finderscope to where I believe the object is but to no avail. I have made sure the finderscope aligns with where the main scope is pointing. Ok thank you, I will try my hand at that book see if it helps. 

Edited July 28, 2020 by LollipopNeb

[John]

Just a quick question - what does a star look like when you view it with your scope ?

 

 

[LollipopNeb]

57 minutes ago, John said:

Just a quick question - what does a star look like when you view it with your scope ?

 

 

It is just a white small dot, I can see many many of them, but no discerning detail of any that I've found up to yet. 

[John]

56 minutes ago, LollipopNeb said:

It is just a white small dot, I can see many many of them, but no discerning detail of any that I've found up to yet. 

That's fine. You cannot see stars as more than a point of light no matter how much magnification you use.

I was just checking to see that your scope is focused properly. Stars as points of light means that it is.

[Starwatcher2001]

Hi again. A good start to learning to star-hop to cool objects is knowing the amount of sky that you're looking at through your finder scope and eyepiece. Your finder scope is 9x50, which shows approximately 5 degrees of sky. Your 25mm eyepiece in that scope shows 1 degree.

If you are using a printed chart or book to navigate around the sky, get yourself some clear acetate sheet and draw two circles in the correct scale to represent your finder and biggest eyepiece (5 and 1 degrees). Putting them on the chart when you're observing, should show roughly the same field of view as you'll see in the sky. This can help you confirm you're in the right place. Don't forget that when looking through the eyepiece of a Newtonion scope, the image is upside-down, so you'll need to turn the chart upside down.

Alternatively, if you have a printer, print pages from an online planetarium (such as https://stellarium-web.org/), and then draw your finder view on top. (I prefer to do this as you can scribble on it under the stars).

If I were finding Andromeda by star-hopping, I'd do the following:

- Look in the sky for the square of pegasus and note the left-most star (Alpheratz).
- I'd look two stars along her "leg" (Delta Andromedae and Mirach)
- I'd look two stars upwards (Mu Andromedae and Nu Andromedae)

(See: Image Start.jpg.  Hops.jpg is the route we are going to take)

- I'd then move the scope to point to Mu Andromedae in the finder.
- Through the 25mm eyepiece, I'd expect to see that nice group of three bright stars.  If I couldn't see them, I'd know my finder was misaligned.

- I'd turn my chart around until it matched exactly what I see though the eyepiece. That's my starting point, and if I lose my way I can always start back here again. (Hop1.jpg)

- I'd move my scope slightly up and right, and watch the image in the eyepiece slide down and left, until the star I've marked is in the centre. (HD 4322) (Hop2.jpg)

- Towards the bottom left of the view should be those two nice pointer stars.

- I'd move the scope up and right again, watching the image move down and left, putting those two "pointers" near the top right of the field of view. (Hop3.jpg)

- Moving the scope up a littled, M32 (A companion of M31) should come into the eyepiece.

- Moving up a little more and you should be right in the middle of M31.

All this is a lot easier to do than describe. It's just a question of plotting your route, working out your field of view and getting your head around the orientation of the image.

On a clear night it's probably easier just to find Andromeda in a pain of binoculars and pointing the finder straight at it. I've laboured the process a little to try to show the basics of star-hopping.

Hope that helps.

Mark

 

 

[wookie1965]

I am wondering whether you can see them but they look like fuzzy blobs, if they do that is what you see. 

We only see in black and white in the dark you won't see DSO's in colour and you won't see what you see in Google pictures. 

From a dark site you may see some detail or spiral arms but that is with very good seeing. 

[PaulM]

As said learn to starhop. Try brighter DSOs first such as the andromeda galaxy and ring nebula M57 both can be seen faintly in your finder scope and are easy to locate vis star hopping

[Tenor Viol]

I note you said you're in Denmark - what's your latitude? It is not going to be very dark. I'm at 53N and this week has only just seen the resumption of 'astronomical darkness' for all of 30 minutes around 1am. You are much further north. You'll have trouble with faint fuzzy things in a light sky. Things like M13 or the Double Cluster on Perseus should be OK. 

[LollipopNeb]

1 hour ago, Starwatcher2001 said:

Hi again. A good start to learning to star-hop to cool objects is knowing the amount of sky that you're looking at through your finder scope and eyepiece. Your finder scope is 9x50, which shows approximately 5 degrees of sky. Your 25mm eyepiece in that scope shows 1 degree.

If you are using a printed chart or book to navigate around the sky, get yourself some clear acetate sheet and draw two circles in the correct scale to represent your finder and biggest eyepiece (5 and 1 degrees). Putting them on the chart when you're observing, should show roughly the same field of view as you'll see in the sky. This can help you confirm you're in the right place. Don't forget that when looking through the eyepiece of a Newtonion scope, the image is upside-down, so you'll need to turn the chart upside down.

Alternatively, if you have a printer, print pages from an online planetarium (such as https://stellarium-web.org/), and then draw your finder view on top. (I prefer to do this as you can scribble on it under the stars).

If I were finding Andromeda by star-hopping, I'd do the following:

- Look in the sky for the square of pegasus and note the left-most star (Alpheratz).
- I'd look two stars along her "leg" (Delta Andromedae and Mirach)
- I'd look two stars upwards (Mu Andromedae and Nu Andromedae)

(See: Image Start.jpg.  Hops.jpg is the route we are going to take)

- I'd then move the scope to point to Mu Andromedae in the finder.
- Through the 25mm eyepiece, I'd expect to see that nice group of three bright stars.  If I couldn't see them, I'd know my finder was misaligned.

- I'd turn my chart around until it matched exactly what I see though the eyepiece. That's my starting point, and if I lose my way I can always start back here again. (Hop1.jpg)

- I'd move my scope slightly up and right, and watch the image in the eyepiece slide down and left, until the star I've marked is in the centre. (HD 4322) (Hop2.jpg)

- Towards the bottom left of the view should be those two nice pointer stars.

- I'd move the scope up and right again, watching the image move down and left, putting those two "pointers" near the top right of the field of view. (Hop3.jpg)

- Moving the scope up a littled, M32 (A companion of M31) should come into the eyepiece.

- Moving up a little more and you should be right in the middle of M31.

All this is a lot easier to do than describe. It's just a question of plotting your route, working out your field of view and getting your head around the orientation of the image.

On a clear night it's probably easier just to find Andromeda in a pain of binoculars and pointing the finder straight at it. I've laboured the process a little to try to show the basics of star-hopping.

Hope that helps.

Mark

 

 

Thank you so much for this in depth explanation. I have read through and I will try to do what you suggest by stop hopping in that manner. I have used Stellarium once before but that never crossed my mind to try it again. I believe this method will hopefully give me my real "first light". Andromeda is 100% one of my top objects to see, so I will for sure use your tips. M42 is also one of them but if I am not mistaken it is not in view for some time from Denmark, or I need to drive some distance to get a good position. M42 is very recognizable, so I imagine when that time comes around I will have no problems finding that one. I will try to use your method of drawing circles that correlate to my actual FOV. Thanks again.

[LollipopNeb]

41 minutes ago, Tenor Viol said:

I note you said you're in Denmark - what's your latitude? It is not going to be very dark. I'm at 53N and this week has only just seen the resumption of 'astronomical darkness' for all of 30 minutes around 1am. You are much further north. You'll have trouble with faint fuzzy things in a light sky. Things like M13 or the Double Cluster on Perseus should be OK. 

You are right, I am at around lat 57N, I've been struggling to get any true dark nights here. Wouldn't mind if being so north would come with advantages such as Northern Lights haha, which I don't have, though if I drive to the right place in Denmark at a certain time that would be different   I will try focus more on Star Clusters when I get the chance, and avoid the very faint ones until I am more skilled and equipped. Thanks for your response. 

[LollipopNeb]

1 hour ago, PaulM said:

As said learn to starhop. Try brighter DSOs first such as the andromeda galaxy and ring nebula M57 both can be seen faintly in your finder scope and are easy to locate vis star hopping

I am going to stick to this method rather than getting frustrated with the difficult ones  thanks for your response.

[LollipopNeb]

1 hour ago, wookie1965 said:

I am wondering whether you can see them but they look like fuzzy blobs, if they do that is what you see. 

We only see in black and white in the dark you won't see DSO's in colour and you won't see what you see in Google pictures. 

From a dark site you may see some detail or spiral arms but that is with very good seeing. 

To me they don't really show as blobs, they rather show as very sharp pinpoint white dots throughout the sky. I will try knuckle through and hope for a good "first light" soon 😛

[Pixies]

Hi. you have so many pieces of good advice above, I'm sure you'll have your first light soon!

But to add my small piece of advice - do you have a pair of binoculars? If you do (say a 10x50), try to do your rough star-hopping with the bins first. Once things are a little darker, you should be able to make out M31. Once you have that - it makes it so much easier to spot in your finder. I use a RACI finder - so the view is the same as with my bins.

I'm at latitude 56 in Scotland. Tonight I saw Andromeda pretty well for this time of year: some diffuse light around the central core. M32 was clear too (M110 was very faint). 

But seriously - this time of year you need to be hitting the globular clusters! M13 is magnificent.

Also, M57 (the Ring Nebula) is really easy to find and bright enough to be clear in lighter skies like ours.

 

[Starwatcher2001]

7 hours ago, LollipopNeb said:

You are right, I am at around lat 57N, I've been struggling to get any true dark nights here. Wouldn't mind if being so north would come with advantages such as Northern Lights haha, which I don't have, though if I drive to the right place in Denmark at a certain time that would be different

It's swings and roundabouts* my friend. During the winter you'll get longer nights of darkness to embrace your hobby.

Edit: *does this translate well into Danish? British saying "some you win, some you lose".

 

Edited July 29, 2020 by Starwatcher2001

[Tenor Viol]

9 hours ago, LollipopNeb said:

You are right, I am at around lat 57N, I've been struggling to get any true dark nights here. Wouldn't mind if being so north would come with advantages such as Northern Lights haha, which I don't have, though if I drive to the right place in Denmark at a certain time that would be different   I will try focus more on Star Clusters when I get the chance, and avoid the very faint ones until I am more skilled and equipped. Thanks for your response. 

I've been to the Isle of Skye in August which is 57N and it does not get dark. So faint fuzzies will definitely be tricky 🙂

[John]

9 hours ago, LollipopNeb said:

To me they don't really show as blobs, they rather show as very sharp pinpoint white dots throughout the sky. I will try knuckle through and hope for a good "first light" soon 😛

The pinpoints are stars.

DSO's do tend to look like small fuzzy patches of light at low magnifications. The Andromeda Galaxy will look like a oval patch of fuzzy light about twice the size of the full moon - and that's just the core of the galaxy, which is what we mostly get to see.

Except open clusters which, as they suggest, look like a group of stars close together.

The brighter and larger DSO's will be visible in an optical finder.

Depending on your sky darkness, the Andromeda Galaxy can be seen with the naked eye.

 

[wookie1965]

10 hours ago, LollipopNeb said:

To me they don't really show as blobs, they rather show as very sharp pinpoint white dots throughout the sky. I will try knuckle through and hope for a good "first light" soon 😛

I was referring to the DSO`s you have been looking at, I had a 150p on a EQ3-2 mount I easily could see many DSO`s  M31, M81 M82, M57  M42  including six stars in the Trapezium, M57 looked like a smoke ring in the sky but the others where fuzzy blobs, I have only ever seen real detail in a friends 22" dob looking at M51 when you could clearly see the spiral arms. From home even when I had a 8" scope I could not see them.  Obviously with a bigger scope more light comes in this all helps as does seeing and a dark site, where in the 8" I have seen many deep sky objects like "The Whale" and "The Hockey Stick"  NGC 4631 and NGC 4656 respectively some amazing things out there,  A favourite is "Hagrids Dragon" NGC 2301.

Don`t be despondent Those fuzzy`s are your galaxies go for clusters from home much more rewarding.

[Waddensky]

10 hours ago, LollipopNeb said:

To me they don't really show as blobs, they rather show as very sharp pinpoint white dots throughout the sky. I will try knuckle through and hope for a good "first light" soon 😛

As John says, these pinpoints are stars. Deep-sky objects like nebulae and galaxies look like fuzzy patches of light. If you're observing in the evening, the Andromeda Galaxy (M31) is still very low, which will make seeing it more difficult.

Keep in mind that the view you get through the eyepiece is just a very small section of the sky. To find deep-sky objects, you'll need to recognise star patterns to locate the object, sometimes by 'star hopping' your way from a bright star to the deep-sky object. You'll need a good chart or app that shows you enough stars to match the field of view in your finder scope, I guess SkyView doesn't have enough stars to use it for finding faint objects. Stellarium or SkySafari are better suited for this purpose.

M13 is a great object to get started. It's easy to find in Hercules' 'keystone'  asterism, it's visible all night this season and it's very bright, so you can easily see it in your finder. Good luck!

[AstroMuni]

12 hours ago, LollipopNeb said:

To me they don't really show as blobs, they rather show as very sharp pinpoint white dots throughout the sky.

Thats odd. It suggests you are seeing stars, not the fuzzy blobs. Here is a good way to start - get hold of a pair of binoculars; even an inexpensive one thats 7x50 or 10x50 will do. Look for these objects with it. That will give you the confidence on where to look and what to look for

Edit: Looks like you have a 9x50 finderscope. So that should show it. If its easier, take it off the scope and search the sky in the area of interest.

Edited July 29, 2020 by AstroMuni