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4 hours ago, ollypenrice said:

Are you not in danger of putting words into Andrew's mouth, here?  He never said or implied that humans certainly have the intelligence to understand where the universe came from.  I rather doubt that he would say such a thing.

Olly

Thanks @ollypenrice, what I actually think is that it is not a matter of intellect but of data.

We currently don't have the means to "observe" the high energy and density that occurred prior to 10^-10s nor do we have the ability to "observe" down at or below the plank scale.

If we ever do have the technology to do this (primordial gravity waves are a possibility) then as with the current mysteries from hadrons to galaxy clusters we would make a good fist of it.

However, on the specific question of where the Universe came from I don't think there is an answer that does not lead to an infinite regression. If it came from somewhere then where did that somewhere come from and so on. I am content with, that it just is, and describing its evolution as best we can. 

Regards Andrew 

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@Scotti G you have some major misunderstanding of galaxies , gravity and black holes. The spiral form of galaxies is not due to material falling into the centre. A black hole has the same gravita

Well, this thread has been a fascinating lunchtime read! It's also just cost me a bit of money - I've gone and bought a couple of the books mentioned! What an absolutely fascinating pursuit this

What came before the Big Bang? The Long Tick Tick Tick...

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On 30/05/2020 at 11:23, Mr Spock said:

Do you have evidence to support the contrary?

That's not how science works. Do you have evidence to prove there isn't a zebra in my attic?

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On 31/05/2020 at 15:39, Ags said:

I don't know about your zebra, but I'm currently unable to prove there is still a mouse in my kitchen.

Remember that the mouse is just a wave of probability, a disturbance in the electromouse field - a weekly interacting field and generally localised. You certainly cannot know both its position and its momentum -  the mouse would collapse if you did - this generally happens when the electromouse field interacts with the cheese boson :)  

 Jim 

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Well, this thread has been a fascinating lunchtime read! It's also just cost me a bit of money - I've gone and bought a couple of the books mentioned!

What an absolutely fascinating pursuit this is :)

Love it.

Edited by arrayschism
Fixing a typo :)
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23 hours ago, saac said:

electromouse field - a weekly interacting field and generally localised.

I think the electrosqueak field comes into play at the high energies of the various multidimensional spring theories involving the 4 flavours of the cheese bosons.

The mouse field does indeed collapse.

😼

 

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3 minutes ago, Corncrake said:

I think the electrosqueak field comes into play at the high energies of the various multidimensional spring theories involving the 4 flavours of the cheese bosons.

The mouse field does indeed collapse.

😼

 

Don't forget the Door  mouse is two dimensional and the house  mouse confined.

Regards Andrew 

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Argh, now look what has happened to me, I cant stop ,,, thinking of hairy black mice :
The no-hair theorem states that all black mice solutions of the Tom–Jerry*  equations of gravitation and electromagnetism in general relativity can be completely characterized by only three externally observable classical parameters, Cheddar, Emmental and angular Marscapone. All other information about the mouse, including its hair, is lost when crossing the event horison.
The conjecture has only been partially resolved by results of Stephen Hawking and others.

*Homework, whose equations ?

and another thing, we cannot know if Shrewdingers mouse got the cheese until we open the trap.

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So, I take it my theory that someone sitting at his desk, in another dimension, reaching down, picking up, then shaking the terrarium globe his six year old made for a science project, doesn't fly!🤔

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8 minutes ago, maw lod qan said:

So, I take it my theory that someone sitting at his desk, in another dimension, reaching down, picking up, then shaking the terrarium globe his six year old made for a science project, doesn't fly!🤔

It unknowable if it's true or not.

Regards Andrew 

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22 minutes ago, Knight of Clear Skies said:

Occam's razor tells us it was unlikely to be a six-year old's terrarium.

Ok so a bit older and shaving? Regards Andrew 

PS how did you know his name was Occam?

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40 minutes ago, teoria_del_big_bang said:

I wish I had never looked at this thread. I have many times ponder similar questions and every time my head almost explodes.  My brain is just not capable of comprehending any of this.

Steve

Steve, here's a summary of the timeline - it's fascinating stuff alright.  Source  http://physics.weber.edu/carroll/honors-time/cosmology.htm

Time

Temperature

Event

a.  0
 

infinite 

Big Bang 

b.  10-43 s

1032 K

time and space first exist

c.  10-35 s 

1027 K

 

exponential expansion called inflation
 

d.  10-6 s

 

1013 K

 

quarks combine into neutrons and protons
 

e.  3 minutes


 

800 million K


 

Big Bang nucleosynthesis:  neutrons and protons form helium nuclei
 

f.  380,000 yrs


 

3000 K


 

electrons combine with hydrogen and helium nuclei to form hydrogen and helium atoms
 

g.  1 billion yrs

 

15 K

 

the first stars begin to form
 

h.  13.7 billion yrs
 

2.725 K
 

today

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I love contemplating the event in the timeline called "cosmic dawn". The moment the first stars switched on and light permeated the universe as it became transparent - electrons having lost sufficient energy (temperature had cooled enough) to be bound to the nuclei allowing photons to spread across the heavens.  I think of myself parked up at a safe distance in the Starship enterprise (humour me) watching and waiting for that first star to light up - wow what that would have been like - yet nothing there to see it or recognise that it had happened. The only signpost written in the Big Bang Theory waiting for Lemaitre to tell the story.    Such are the sights that will forever be denied to our eyes. 

Jim 

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51 minutes ago, saac said:

Steve, here's a summary of the timeline - it's fascinating stuff alright.  Source  http://physics.weber.edu/carroll/honors-time/cosmology.htm

Thanks for the link and tabulation.

I hadn't previously paid attention to just how long after f -last scattering till g -the first stars turned on, I knew it was a while ! but 1000million years is well, .,! almost as boggling to the brain cell as the Planck time(length)

Thinks > must google what was going on during that time*, did it take that long for the small fluctuations in the bang to clump everything into big lumps I suppose.

 

* what were Tom&Jerry doing all that time :)  sorry couldn't resist.

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39 minutes ago, Corncrake said:

Thanks for the link and tabulation.

I hadn't previously paid attention to just how long after f -last scattering till g -the first stars turned on, I knew it was a while ! but 1000million years is well, .,! almost as boggling to the brain cell as the Planck time(length)

Thinks > must google what was going on during that time*, did it take that long for the small fluctuations in the bang to clump everything into big lumps I suppose.

 

* what were Tom&Jerry doing all that time :)  sorry couldn't resist.

I'n no authority but I wonder if the newly forming nuclei still had sufficient kinetic energy  - due to the temperature 3000K (f) - that gravity would not yet dominate. Once things cooled, gravity would start to pull hydrogen together. I believe the electromagnetic force also had a significant role to play in clumping of matter as well.  In our macro world we would look for nucleation sites which encourage matter to accumulate  - such as evident in formation of snow flakes where microscopic pieces of dirt  provide a site  for the crystals to coalesce.    I wonder if there was some similar mechanism -  perturbations in fields or temperature gradients which encouraged matter to clump leading to star formation.  The period of the "cosmic dark age"  - time before the universe would even become transparent to allow transmission of light - free electrons interacting and "soaking up" any potential roaming photons is another fascinating period. 

Jim 

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I think what it must have been like, before The Big Bang.

Nothing, void, darkness.

Then from that nothing, it happened and there was light.

And we all know without a doubt that when we look up into a cloudless night sky, it is good!

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3 minutes ago, maw lod qan said:

I think what it must have been like, before The Big Bang.

Nothing, void, darkness.

Then from that nothing, it happened and there was light.

And we all know without a doubt that when we look up into a cloudless night sky, it is good!

That's the executive summary :) 

Jim 

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1 hour ago, saac said:

I love contemplating the event in the timeline called "cosmic dawn". The moment the first stars switched on and light permeated the universe as it became transparent - electrons having lost sufficient energy (temperature had cooled enough) to be bound to the nuclei allowing photons to spread across the heavens.  I think of myself parked up at a safe distance in the Starship enterprise (humour me) watching and waiting for that first star to light up - wow what that would have been like - yet nothing there to see it or recognise that it had happened. The only signpost written in the Big Bang Theory waiting for Lemaitre to tell the story.    Such are the sights that will forever be denied to our eyes. 

Jim 

I thought star formation re-inonised the Universe. The formation of neutral hydrogen released the CMB photons. However, it happened at a lower temperature than the ionization temperature of hydrogen due to the long tail in the Boltzman temperature distribution. 

I may well be wrong so will check.

Regards 

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1 hour ago, andrew s said:

I thought star formation re-inonised the Universe. The formation of neutral hydrogen released the CMB photons. However, it happened at a lower temperature than the ionization temperature of hydrogen due to the long tail in the Boltzman temperature distribution. 

I may well be wrong so will check.

Regards 

I thought that the CMB photons were able to travel unchecked before star formation - the thinning of the fog until it became transparent. Didn't stellar formation then follow ? There was a useful Horizon documentary o this called Cosmic Dawn . I'll see if I can find a link. 

Jim 

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1 minute ago, saac said:

I thought that the CMB photons were able to travel unchecked before star formation - the thinning of the fog until it became transparent. Didn't stellar formation then follow ? There was a useful Horizon documentary o this called Cosmic Dawn . I'll see if I can find a link. 

Jim 

Yes the formation of neutral hydrogen let the CMB fee but it was sometime later that stars formed and their UV re-ionized the hydrogen.

Regards  Andrew 

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