New AstroPhotography Setup Advice

[Diddykong]

Evening all,

I'm hoping to get into astrophotography and have been doing some research on the subject.  My budge is around £1000 - £1500 and so far I have decided on the SkyWatcher HEQ5 Pro mount and either the 200P or Skywatcher Evostar 80 ED DS Pro scopes. 

My main aim is DSO photography, so galaxies, nebula etc.  Which scope would work best to achieve this goal?

My camera is a Canon EOS1300D.

Any other equipment and advice to take into consideration?  Any help would be much appreciated.

[tooth_dr]

Diddyking, such a great game, enjoyed multiplayer games on the N64

The ED80 is a tried and tested scope, nice and light, wont tax the mount and should work well with the Canon.  You'll need the additional 0.85x FF to get the most out of it, to speed it up and improve the field curvature.  I have a 250, which is a bigger version of the 200.  I had it on an EQ6, and it just about worked.  I also have an ED80, and it was used 99.9% of the time on my EQ6.  If you go for the 200P you'll need a MPCC (or some sort of CC) otherwise stars will look a bit funky.

Any sort of wind and the 200P will blow about.  It has a focal length of 1000mm, so approx x2 the ED80 with 0.85x FF.   This means it will be more critical of errors in tracking.  Also will require collimation (not hard, but just to make you aware, and you will need to buy a collimating tool).

Galaxies - with the exception of a few larger ones, the 200P is a better choice.  Nebula - often larger in size and therefore more suited to the shorter focal length of the ED80.

In an ideal world, buy both, as the 200P will give good images of Saturn etc.

 

Edited April 21, 2020 by tooth_dr

[vlaiv]

I would take it down one notch and go for 150PDS instead of 200.

8" scope is large scope for Heq5 unless it is compact tube. Even smallest wind and that thing will jump around. I used 8" F/6 scope on Heq5 (that was almost up to the limit of what mount can carry - I needed x3 5Kg counterweights for that) and I'm using 8" RC scope - which is folded design. Later is nice on heq5 but former I would not recommend.

For that reason, I think 150PDS is better choice for novice astrophotographer over 200mm scope.

80ED is another good and popular choice. It is arguably easier to use because you don't need to worry about collimation and it is smaller / lighter scope. It is more suited for larger things - like larger nebulae.

One thing to keep in mind - longer FL scope can image larger nebulae - mosaic technique - doing several panels and then stitching them into single image, but shorter length scope can't easily provide you with resolution of larger - longer focal length scope.

[Diddykong]

Thank you for the reply Tooth and Vlaiv.  Very interesting points.

It sounds like starting out on the ED80 would be the better idea and when I've "learnt the ropes" can always buy the 200 or similar. 

Would I still be able to get great quality images of say the Andromeda Galaxy using the ED80?

Will I need a guide scope with the HEQ5 Pro and ED80 setup?

[tooth_dr]

2 minutes ago, Diddykong said:

Thank you for the reply Tooth and Vlaiv.  Very interesting points.

It sounds like starting out on the ED80 would be the better idea and when I've "learnt the ropes" can always buy the 200 or similar. 

Would I still be able to get great quality images of say the Andromeda Galaxy using the ED80?

Will I need a guide scope with the HEQ5 Pro and ED80 setup?

I've had a look on my PC, and found some images taken with a Canon 40d/1000d, which is similar enough to the 1300d.  There were taken through an ED80, with FF at 520mm F6.3, on an EQ6.  These are uncropped single subs out of the camera just to give you an idea of FOV.

I would say that 'I've learnt the ropes', and TBH still use my ED80.  It reliable and trouble free to use, and produces nice images.  I wont ever sell it.

I took an image of Andromeda through it, using a Canon 1000d, without the FF, and it's attached below also.  It's not great but it shows the potential of the scope and DSLR.

 

Edited April 21, 2020 by tooth_dr

[vlaiv]

3 minutes ago, Diddykong said:

Would I still be able to get great quality images of say the Andromeda Galaxy using the ED80?

Yes, but you have to realize that it takes much more than a mount and a scope to make a good image. Don't be discouraged though - it is a process and I'm sure that with time and practice, you'll be able to take great images as well.

4 minutes ago, Diddykong said:

Will I need a guide scope with the HEQ5 Pro and ED80 setup?

Yes and no. You might not need it, but at some point you will want to guide.

All but most expensive mounts have more or less error in tracking. If you keep exposures short (error does not build up), are prepared to sometimes discard some exposures (ones that have more accumulated error than others) and work at lower resolutions (not too much "zoom" - depends on focal length and pixel size) then you don't need guiding.

With time, you'll learn that it takes longer exposures, that every exposure counts and you don't want to throw away data and you'll want to get in close - and you will want to guide.

[Star101]

Apart from these great images from tooth_dr here

Check out Astrobin for images taken with the ED80. https://www.astrobin.com/search/?q=ed80&d=i&t=all

 

Edited April 21, 2020 by Star101

[Diddykong]

Fantastic images Tooth.  Think I'm sold on the ED80!  What do you mean when you say "uncropped single subs"? 

Thanks Vliav.  I'll just start without a guiding scope to start with and see how I get on then. 

Thank you for the link Star. Definitely sold on the ED80., looks like a fantastic scope!

[Diddykong]

Also another quick question.  The Celestron Advanced VX mount is the same price as the HEQ5 Pro.  Both just shy of £800.  Any recommendations?

[vlaiv]

4 minutes ago, Diddykong said:

What do you mean when you say "uncropped single subs"? 

I doubt that last image - that of M31/Andromeda galaxy that @tooth_dr is single sub from camera. 

Astrophotos are made by taking many images - called subs and then "stacking" them and later processing the image. Stuff out there is really faint and images would be very noisy if they were single subs - you need to take many images of same thing and let computer make you an image from that.

In order for all of that to work - you need to calibrate your images, align them, stack them and later on do histogram stretch to pull out faint stuff from the image. It's all part of learning curve.

4 minutes ago, Diddykong said:

Also another quick question.  The Celestron Advanced VX mount is the same price as the HEQ5 Pro.  Both just shy of £800.  Any recommendations?

Stick with Heq5 pro.

[Diddykong]

Thanks Vlaiv.  Very informative!

I shall keep doing some research into other aspects of this hobby

[tooth_dr]

54 minutes ago, vlaiv said:

I doubt that last image - that of M31/Andromeda galaxy that @tooth_dr is single sub from camera. 

Sorry it wasnt clear, but no that last image is several hours of data stacked.   I meant the first 5 are single subs to show the FOV.

 

@Diddykong uncropped means the image has not been cropped in size.  Sometimes images are cropped and this can make your galaxy 'appear' bigger ie look more magnified, as it fills more of the field.  I wanted to convey to you, that at 520mm, things like galaxies for the most part are going to be very small.  

[Diddykong]

Anything else I should be buying now alongside the mount and scope?  What accessories will I require? Eyepieces, powerbank etc.

 

 

[SyedT]

3 hours ago, Diddykong said:

Evening all,

I'm hoping to get into astrophotography and have been doing some research on the subject.  My budge is around £1000 - £1500 and so far I have decided on the SkyWatcher HEQ5 Pro mount and either the 200P or Skywatcher Evostar 80 ED DS Pro scopes. 

My main aim is DSO photography, so galaxies, nebula etc.  Which scope would work best to achieve this goal?

My camera is a Canon EOS1300D.

Any other equipment and advice to take into consideration?  Any help would be much appreciated.

I would 100% recommend the ED80. It was my first refractor and a proper workhorse, never let me down and made me more and more interested in the hobby. It will be much easier to handle than a 200P and you will get a lot of enjoyment out of it. It doesn't require collimation (i.e. alignment of the optics) unless you seriously bump it. You can capture plenty of nebulae with the ED80 along with some widefield galactic shots. As said before, I would recommend the 0.85x reducer/flattener. This will increase your field of view and also flatten the field, reducing field curvature.

Here's a calculator you can use to determine what the images will look like (pixel size of the 1300D is 4.29x4.29) : https://astronomy.tools/calculators/field_of_view/

Apart from equipment, another thing I would look at is processing programs. Capturing images is all good, but the work really begins with processing! You can make a start with DeepSkyStacker (which is free), and then look at other programs e.g. AstroPixelProcessor, StarTools, Pixinsight etc and try them out before you purchase them.

Good luck! SGL is the best place to get advice for anything astronomy related, so you're in the perfect place.  

[tooth_dr]

19 minutes ago, Diddykong said:

Anything else I should be buying now alongside the mount and scope?  What accessories will I require? Eyepieces, powerbank etc.

 

 

Steve Richards has a book Making Every Photon Count, that would be a good starter too for info.  If you go for the ED80 you will also need a T adapter and a SW 0.85x FR/FF.

[Erling G-P]

If you should swing back towards the 200, you want the 200PDS, rather than the 200P.  The former is for imaging (but can also do visual), while the latter is for visual, and may have problems reaching focus with certain cameras as I understand it.

I use a 200PDS on a HEQ5Pro myself, and can confirm that it's quite a sail - winds have to be low for me to use it.  Shooting unguided, I had to limit myself to relatively short exposures of 30 secs; otherwise I would have to throw away far too many (50%+), due to tracking errors.  After I recently started guiding and did a belt mod on the HEQ5, I find myself using practically all mys subs, now with considerably longer exposure times; 3 minutes for example (tried 5 minutes, but sky got too bright).

[SyedT]

37 minutes ago, Diddykong said:

Anything else I should be buying now alongside the mount and scope?  What accessories will I require? Eyepieces, powerbank etc.

 

 

 
If you're planning on doing visual stuff then eyepieces could be handy, but that's a whole new topic (and one that I haven't got a clue about as I only really do astrophotography and have a single zoom eyepiece for all my needs).
  
Other stuff you may need: 

1. Adapters – If you get the ED80, you’ll need a T-ring to attach to the DSLR. This will then attach to the 0.85x focal reducer/field flattener, which will in turn connect to a 2-inch nosepiece. You can then insert the nosepiece into the focuser barrel, and away you go.  I would advise you to email FLO if you are stuck regarding adapters etc as they are incredibly helpful and knowledgeable. 

2. Dew heater straps + dew heater controller - It can get fairly humid/frosty at night depending on the season, so these will keep your equipment dew and frost-free. Just be careful not to set the temperature too high. The power for the dew controller usually comes from a cigarette lighter plug, so you’ll need to get an AC to cigarette lighter socket adapter depending on if you are using a power bank or mains supply.

3. Power bank – This is handy if you’ll be imaging away from home. If not, you can just run a mains extension cable from inside the house, or install a waterproof plug enclosure outside.

4. Autoguiding – Your mount may be able to handle short subs without guiding, but for longer subs you’ll need guiding. This is usually done with a separate “guidescope”, which has its own camera. The idea is that it tracks a single star across the sky and keeps the mount locked on to that star. What I’ve used previously is a simple Skywatcher 9x50 finderscope attached to the finder bracket on the ED80; I removed the eyepiece lens from the finderscope, inserted a special adapter (which can be bought online, I actually have a spare one at the moment) and then connected a guiding camera (ZWO ASI 120MC-S) to it. That kind of setup works perfectly well for short focal length setups like the ED80.

5. Laptop - You can easily use the DSLR as a standalone item; attach an intervalometer, set it to a particular exposure time and number of subs, and let it image away. Alternatively, you may want to use your laptop and a capture program for a bit more control. I previously used Backyard EOS (still do for occasional widefield stuff, recently did a timelapse with it which it handled very well). You’ll also need a laptop if you start using guiding (the program most commonly used for guiding is called PHD2).

I’d recommend Making Every Photon Count as mentioned above. I’ve not read it myself (clearly I preferred to muddle my way through the hobby), but have heard nothing but good things about it!
 

[tooth_dr]

4 minutes ago, SyedT said:

1. Adapters – If you get the ED80, you’ll need a T-ring to attach to the DSLR. This will then attach to the 0.85x focal reducer/field flattener, which will in turn connect to a 2-inch nosepiece. You can then insert the nosepiece into the focuser barrel, and away you go.  I would advise you to email FLO if you are stuck regarding adapters etc as they are incredibly helpful and knowledgeable.

The 0.85x FR/FF can screw directly onto the focusing tube of the ED80, giving a nice secure connection.

[SyedT]

1 minute ago, tooth_dr said:

The 0.85x FR/FF can screw directly onto the focusing tube of the ED80, giving a nice secure connection.

That's interesting, is that a relatively new design concept? I did own the ED80 quite a while ago (2016), and it was second-hand (purchased by the buyer in 2012).

[Stub Mandrel]

Incoming googly...

@Whistlin Bob gets really great results with a 200P-DS on a HEQ5, although he does benefit from the shelter of a shed with fold back roof and has the belt drive conversion.

I've been using my 150PL (1200mm f/l) on my HEQ5 for the last few weeks, no belt drive, just well set up gears - judge results for yourself:

[tooth_dr]

48 minutes ago, SyedT said:

That's interesting, is that a relatively new design concept? I did own the ED80 quite a while ago (2016), and it was second-hand (purchased by the buyer in 2012).

It's not new.  I bought my ED80 in 2010, and this is how it was then - M56 thread on the focuser, matches the FF.

Edited April 21, 2020 by tooth_dr

[SyedT]

3 minutes ago, tooth_dr said:

It's not new.  I bought my ED80 in 2010, and this is how it was then - M56 thread on the focuser, matches the FF.

I clearly missed a trick with my ED80 then! 

[tooth_dr]

8 hours ago, SyedT said:

I clearly missed a trick with my ED80 then! 

lol I actually bought an M56 Baader click lock and screwed this onto the focuser, and use the 2” adapter from FLO which screws onto the FF.  Just made it easier to get the framing right.

https://www.firstlightoptics.com/adapters/baader-click-lock-2956256-m56-celestron-skywatcher.html

https://www.firstlightoptics.com/adapters/astro-essentials-adapter-for-sky-watcher-focal-reducers.html

[Diddykong]

Thank you for all the advice posted.  Has made very interesting reading.

So I have put in a pre order for the HEQ5 Pro Mount however the ED 80 might be delayed until Mid to late May, so was presented with another option: William Optics 2019 Zenithstar 73 APO

It's only £100 more and I would be able to get straight away.  Any reason I shouldn't pull the trigger on this over the ED 80?

[Shimrod]

2 hours ago, Diddykong said:

Thank you for all the advice posted.  Has made very interesting reading.

So I have put in a pre order for the HEQ5 Pro Mount however the ED 80 might be delayed until Mid to late May, so was presented with another option: William Optics 2019 Zenithstar 73 APO

It's only £100 more and I would be able to get straight away.  Any reason I shouldn't pull the trigger on this over the ED 80?

Are you comparing like for like? The WO73 is £550 for OTA only, the ED 80 is £379 OTA only (at FLO) and £485 including diagonal, finder and 28mm eyepiece. I can't really comment on the WO73, it has a much better focuser than the ED 80 - I recently bought the ED 80 and I'm very pleased with it, but I did also upgrade the focuser to a Baader Steeltrack at the same time. I had read several reviews that the standard focuser can struggle with the weight of camera and can slip.