CEM 60 PHD 2

[alan potts]

Well I have finally moved my new mount into the observatory. Now it took me forever and a lot of help from members to set-up the AZ EQ 6 and EQ Mod pulse guiding, APT, C-du-C and PHD, which worked very well after many problems with cables and self inflicted issues.

I have found a set of instructions for setting up C-du-C with the mount and an Ascom driver, so I feel I can manage that. I also believe  APT will not change too much and can deal with that, I think.

However all I can find on PHD 2 is a guy saying how wonderful it is all works but nothing else and even this is for the EC version, can anyone point me in the right direction?

Alan.

[fwm891]

Alan,

Have you loaded the ascom driver and iOptron's Commander software (https://www.ioptron.com/product-p/7200.htm )as the CEM60 doesn't run under EQMod - that's for Synter? mounts.

If you've loaded the Commander and ascom drivers for the CEM60 then PHD2 will 'see' the mount.

Open PHD2

Click the USB symbol (bottom left) this opens a connect equipment screen

Camera: Set your guide camera here

Mount: Set your mount here - the down arrow in the box will show all your options - look for iOptron ASCOM Driver for Mount

Then either click Connect all or the camera and mount connect separately

Then click - Close

That should allow you to begin seeing images on screen.

**When you click on the USB symbol  right at the top of PHD's screen is a box named Equipment Profile. Here you can enter the details of your guidescope and camera. Click on the manage profiles and you will find a wizard routine there to help you through the settings.

 

[WanderingEye]

APT will work with the Mount, but not via EQMOD, as that is for skywatcher mounts, so you would have to use the IOptron Mount Ascom driver...or maybe the native driver will work too, am not sure on that...

[alan potts]

9 minutes ago, fwm891 said:

Alan,

Have you loaded the ascom driver and iOptron's Commander software (https://www.ioptron.com/product-p/7200.htm )as the CEM60 doesn't run under EQMod - that's for Synter? mounts.

If you've loaded the Commander and ascom drivers for the CEM60 then PHD2 will 'see' the mount.

Open PHD2

Click the USB symbol (bottom left) this opens a connect equipment screen

Camera: Set your guide camera here

Mount: Set your mount here - the down arrow in the box will show all your options - look for iOptron ASCOM Driver for Mount

Then either click Connect all or the camera and mount connect separately

Then click - Close

That should allow you to begin seeing images on screen.

**When you click on the USB symbol  right at the top of PHD's screen is a box named Equipment Profile. Here you can enter the details of your guidescope and camera. Click on the manage profiles and you will find a wizard routine there to help you through the settings.

 

I think it is a case of me worrying, I have it working and was surprised how simple it was once I overcome my mistake for the day, you probably know this is normal for me.

I bought the Lynx 2.5mm cable to connect it to the 12v DC mains out put I have, think this was an alternative to the main unit provided. So there am I for 40 minutes at least trying all sorts and getting nowhere, it telling me all the time NO Ioptron hardware found.

Then the penny dropped, the mount was without power!!,

Francis, can you tell me what this connection via 2.5mm specially bought cable is for, does it power the twin 12vDC outlets on the main panel? if so I would require a 5.5mm to 5.5mm male both ends, is there such a thing or is this aimed at Focusers and filter wheels?

Still got a bit of learning what can be done, but it seems to be working and we have a clear sky

Alan

[alan potts]

12 minutes ago, WanderingEye said:

APT will work with the Mount, but not via EQMOD, as that is for skywatcher mounts, so you would have to use the IOptron Mount Ascom driver...or maybe the native driver will work too, am not sure on that...

I understood that Eqmod is for Skywatchers mounts, seem to have it working, worrying over nothing as usual.

Alan

 

[fwm891]

PHD2 screens...

[alan potts]

1 hour ago, fwm891 said:

PHD2 screens...

Thanks for that but I had a question for you above that I guess you missed.

Alan

[fwm891]

3 hours ago, alan potts said:

I think it is a case of me worrying, I have it working and was surprised how simple it was once I overcome my mistake for the day, you probably know this is normal for me.

I bought the Lynx 2.5mm cable to connect it to the 12v DC mains out put I have, think this was an alternative to the main unit provided. So there am I for 40 minutes at least trying all sorts and getting nowhere, it telling me all the time NO Ioptron hardware found.

Then the penny dropped, the mount was without power!!,

Francis, can you tell me what this connection via 2.5mm specially bought cable is for, does it power the twin 12vDC outlets on the main panel? if so I would require a 5.5mm to 5.5mm male both ends, is there such a thing or is this aimed at Focusers and filter wheels?

Still got a bit of learning what can be done, but it seems to be working and we have a clear sky

Alan

Alan,

Your 12 Volt  cable plugs into the side of the mount by the on/off switch. When you turn it on the red light shows. I don't know what cable(s) you have. 

If you look at the CEM60 pdf manual page 9 there is a 12 volt power input (2.5 x 5.5) just below the polar axis scope eyepiece. Also on page 19 - Step 7 connecting cables, there's a photo of a switched (on/off) 12 volt input (the one I use).

Manual: http://www.ioptron.us/Manual/7200_CEM60_Manual.pdf

Francis

 

[alan potts]

1 hour ago, fwm891 said:

Alan,

Your 12 Volt  cable plugs into the side of the mount by the on/off switch. When you turn it on the red light shows. I don't know what cable(s) you have. 

If you look at the CEM60 pdf manual page 9 there is a 12 volt power input (2.5 x 5.5) just below the polar axis scope eyepiece. Also on page 19 - Step 7 connecting cables, there's a photo of a switched (on/off) 12 volt input (the one I use).

Manual: http://www.ioptron.us/Manual/7200_CEM60_Manual.pdf

Francis

 

I bought the Lynx 2.5mm cable that you talk about thinking this was an alternative to the mains unit, it's not. This 2.5mm cable powers the twin outlets on the panel according to FLO, from there you require other cables to power other items, focuser, etc. My idea was to power the camera's cooler from here, which I guess you can but you need another Lynx cable which I don't have, never mind, another time.

Just run a few subs first test:- pointing once synced was very very impressive, smack bang in the middle.  Guiding was very good but a bit erratic from time to time most of the time though it was better than .35 sec RA and .3sec Dec, could be conditions. Even low down it was .5sec in RA and .45 in Dec most of the time again just with the odd blip..

Not tried PEC yet, have you?

Alan

 

[fwm891]

47 minutes ago, alan potts said:

...

Not tried PEC yet, have you?

Alan

 

I have the standard version not the EC. As I use a guider either smaller scope or OAG I didn't see the point of the EC model.

[alan potts]

7 hours ago, fwm891 said:

I have the standard version not the EC. As I use a guider either smaller scope or OAG I didn't see the point of the EC model.

I too have the standard version, but I will try PEC. It seems the PEC is not part of the EC version. From what I read last night whilst at the scope it only takes 5 minutes to record and then you just play it back.

I sort of saw the point of the EC but though an additional grand was a bit steep, there is an impressive video on you-tube showing basically a straight line guide session.

Alan.

 

[alan potts]

Golly what a difference 24 hours makes, I feel had I seen tonight's guiding last night I would be packing the the CEM 60 back into it's box for a return to FLO and telling one and all what junk it was. Guide tonight was nothing short of awful.

First off PHD selected a star that immediately gave deviations of over 2 seconds in each direction on RA but not so much on DEC. I picked another star which was very much better but still poor at best. I believe I was only out for New Toy reasons and running off 4 minutes subs of M13 just for practice really. Strange as it seems even what I thought was poor didn't show poor results in the stars recorded, even magnified X5, they looked round.

Last night RA sub .5sec almost all of the time tonight I don't think it ever got down to that figure and most time was double.

Alan 

[david_taurus83]

Hi Alan. Did you clear calibration and run a new one for the new mount?

[alan potts]

8 hours ago, david_taurus83 said:

Hi Alan. Did you clear calibration and run a new one for the new mount?

Yes Dave I did, I guess I have to go through a learning curve again but I was well pleased i was able to get it working sort of on my own. Guiding was poor though last night but I am sure there was thin cloud in upper air, I also found later my guide scope was a long way out from the direction of the main scope, must have knocked it. I only actually saw this when at the death I pointed at the moon to check guide scope focus. The main scope pointed straight to the moon landing it more or less centre, the guidescope, nowhere to be seen, just a glow. That can't be good.  Considering I paid a reasonable amount for this SW ED guidescope, it often goes out of line with the main scope despite tightening the screws up what I consider well.

Alan

[david_taurus83]

It may have become misaligned when you were changing the scope over to the new mount. It happens and hopefully your last night out was just one of those nights where guiding isn't going to be great. I'll be interested to see how much your guiding improves. The AZEQ6 will quite happily guide to an average RMS of 0.5-0.6" but my peak errors typically are 1.0" to -1.0". Ok for my current focal lengths of 336mm and 564mm. I'd still like the bullseye to be a bit more concentrated but I suppose I'll have to live with it for the time being while I'm still setting up on a tripod.

[glowingturnip]

5 hours ago, alan potts said:

my guide scope was a long way out from the direction of the main scope, must have knocked it.

shouldn't theoretically make much difference, so long as it's not pointing at ridiculously different angles, but I'm wondering if, since your guidescope seems to be a bit loose, could it be wobbling vs the main scope and throwing the guiding out ?

[alan potts]

1 hour ago, glowingturnip said:

shouldn't theoretically make much difference, so long as it's not pointing at ridiculously different angles, but I'm wondering if, since your guidescope seems to be a bit loose, could it be wobbling vs the main scope and throwing the guiding out ?

That the issue Stuart, the guide scope isn't loose so I must have given it a knock or it was set up in the shoe at a fair angle and I didn't see it. I took the whole lot apart so somewhere it went off because it was exact before.

Alan

3 hours ago, david_taurus83 said:

It may have become misaligned when you were changing the scope over to the new mount. It happens and hopefully your last night out was just one of those nights where guiding isn't going to be great. I'll be interested to see how much your guiding improves. The AZEQ6 will quite happily guide to an average RMS of 0.5-0.6" but my peak errors typically are 1.0" to -1.0". Ok for my current focal lengths of 336mm and 564mm. I'd still like the bullseye to be a bit more concentrated but I suppose I'll have to live with it for the time being while I'm still setting up on a tripod.

My set up on the Az Eq 6 was observatory based but with nowhere near your knowhow. I was getting much the same as you about .55 sec on RA and a bit better on DEC, .40, though this was with a PA close to spot on, under 1minute and using PPEC from PHD 2, which I found very good after being alerted to it by a member. That was always much the case when guiding above 35 degrees. I got the odd blip like you and these were in the same 1second area. Last night after first star select I hit almost 3, though this was just a really bad star as far as I could see, maybe a double.

I have no idea if it helps but I am going to tighten the stars focus on the guide scope and drop the gain on the camera  to see if it helps at all, try that PPEC on the algorithms section, I saw an improvement but it takes 2 turns of the worm to have full effect every move.

Alan

[Anthonyexmouth]

9 hours ago, alan potts said:

Yes Dave I did, I guess I have to go through a learning curve again but I was well pleased i was able to get it working sort of on my own. Guiding was poor though last night but I am sure there was thin cloud in upper air, I also found later my guide scope was a long way out from the direction of the main scope, must have knocked it. I only actually saw this when at the death I pointed at the moon to check guide scope focus. The main scope pointed straight to the moon landing it more or less centre, the guidescope, nowhere to be seen, just a glow. That can't be good.  Considering I paid a reasonable amount for this SW ED guidescope, it often goes out of line with the main scope despite tightening the screws up what I consider well.

Alan

Not sure how it would relate to your setup but when i started with the SW finder in the shoe and then piggybacked an ST80 my guiding improved substantially when i finally got a side by side setup. not sure how much can be credited to that but the improvement was dramatic.

Also, my FOV on the guide is not spot on with the imaging scope but both are rock solid and no movement even when bumped during the fitting and removal of the cover

 

[alan potts]

35 minutes ago, Anthonyexmouth said:

Not sure how it would relate to your setup but when i started with the SW finder in the shoe and then piggybacked an ST80 my guiding improved substantially when i finally got a side by side setup. not sure how much can be credited to that but the improvement was dramatic.

Also, my FOV on the guide is not spot on with the imaging scope but both are rock solid and no movement even when bumped during the fitting and removal of the cover

 

I could very easily put a ED70mm scope on a twin mounting frame I have by ADM and have them side by side to see. But to be fair this is the ED Sky Watcher guide scope so should be decent and results with the AZEQ6 were as good as should be expected from this mount. It is something that is worth exploring though as is all my other scope queuing up to take a ride. What I couldn't understand was the massive difference from one night to the next, as it is clear, albeit with a Moon, lets see what tonight manages.

Alan

[Anthonyexmouth]

31 minutes ago, alan potts said:

I could very easily put a ED70mm scope on a twin mounting frame I have by ADM and have them side by side to see. But to be fair this is the ED Sky Watcher guide scope so should be decent and results with the AZEQ6 were as good as should be expected from this mount. It is something that is worth exploring though as is all my other scope queuing up to take a ride. What I couldn't understand was the massive difference from one night to the next, as it is clear, albeit with a Moon, lets see what tonight manages.

Alan

my side by side is an ADM one too. what I like is it brings the setup closer to the centre of rotation. 

[alan potts]

Had another chance to use the CEM 60 after putting the guide scope back in the same plain as the main scope. I also tried the Ioptron version of PEC on their handset.

Using PHD2's normal default setup and guiding at something like 70 degrees above the horizon results were around .4 and .35 but when I switched to the PHD version of PPEC things made a slight improvement and seemed fairly stable. These were in the area of .3 and .25, often the latter DEC was better than this.

However switch everything back and come out of PHD's PPEC, in case there was a conflict and internal punch-up and we had a different story. Now I am rather assuming I did this properly as it does seem fairly simple, select record, and wait 300 seconds then engage PEC  by checking Enable. Here the wheels really came off, RA and DEC heading off to at least 3 seconds deviation and generally noise coming from the mount from the motors as it moved around from one spot to the next. 20 seconds of this I could tell that either I had done something very wrong or the PEC from the handset was rubbish. The recording was made in accordance with instruction and guiding was good I would say. I am wondering if this PEC is intended to be used without guiding as my first effor would suggest it don't work with it, I will try again tonight as it looks clear.

For what it is worth I feel the PPEC in PHD's locker works fairly well.

Lower down in the sky (22 degrees ) the mount did not perform the same but rarely deviated above 1 second on RA but in general it was erratic, this improved as M33 came above 25 degrees and got better over the hour or so.

Hope this is of some use to members with the same mount.

Alan.

[kirkster501]

Just a word of warning that some nights the guiding IS awful and you can instinctively think you are doing soemthing wrong and fiddle with things on your rig or settings in PHD when, in fact. there is nothing wrong and that the seeing is just rubbish that night or at that time.  You must always be mindful of this.  I have enough confidence now to know that my set up is fine and if my guiding is all over the place then my rig is fine and it's just a bad night.  It takes time to build this confidence in your rig and to know when not to fiddle.

Alan, are you sure you have eliminated differential flexture if you're using a guidescope?  I highly recommend Off Axis Guiding, even for a smaller refractor.  I have never looked back since I went this route.  It is simple, straightforward and all my issues went away when I did made this move.

[alan potts]

4 hours ago, kirkster501 said:

Just a word of warning that some nights the guiding IS awful and you can instinctively think you are doing soemthing wrong and fiddle with things on your rig or settings in PHD when, in fact. there is nothing wrong and that the seeing is just rubbish that night or at that time.  You must always be mindful of this.  I have enough confidence now to know that my set up is fine and if my guiding is all over the place then my rig is fine and it's just a bad night.  It takes time to build this confidence in your rig and to know when not to fiddle.

Alan, are you sure you have eliminated differential flexture if you're using a guidescope?  I highly recommend Off Axis Guiding, even for a smaller refractor.  I have never looked back since I went this route.  It is simple, straightforward and all my issues went away when I did made this move.

There are a lot of things I can try including OAG, as I bought one with the mount, tripod and 183mc camera and other bits. The idea was to have a play with the 180mm Mak as I fancy the 12 inch Sc could be a bit too big for the mount and I didn't really want to throw another 1,500 quid at the CEM 120 just to try the SC tube and probably fail.. So I could set up the OAG, it's only a Zwo, at the price I thought why not. I promise you I will give it a try, not totally sure how to fit it up but that can be got from the net. It came with an odd shaped thing which is the same diameter as the OAG and I'm not sure what to do with it. I could always bang the SC on the AZEQ 6 for fun, I am sure I will get something and it comes free of cost.

As for seeing, my sky out here is generally better than than most places for Darkness but I do tend to be an early evening player and not a night owl, this is of course went the sky is most active after hot days, even now it is 28 outside and it's mid October. I don't have this confidence as you call it yet and can't resist a play sometimes, only the other month I checked a box and it took all of you 3 weeks to come up with an answer, which Stash Old did, idle hands.

Alan