Dithering again and cooling

[symmetal]

8 hours ago, alan potts said:

I am sure the camera works, as I believe I have taken a set of Darks.

Good. That's progress.  I was wondering, as you're using USB2 what length cable are you using, and do you have any USB extender cables in the connection to the camera. As the USB2 connection will be trying to work at its maximum speed, extenders or a cable over 5m can cause intermittant communication problems when working at high speed, which could lead to the type of problems you had initially.

Alan

[alan potts]

11 minutes ago, symmetal said:

Good. That's progress.  I was wondering, as you're using USB2 what length cable are you using, and do you have any USB extender cables in the connection to the camera. As the USB2 connection will be trying to work at its maximum speed, extenders or a cable over 5m can cause intermittant communication problems when working at high speed, which could lead to the type of problems you had initially.

Alan

I believe it is just a 1.5m cable maybe 2m but for sure no longer, that first issue with mount stopping is an odd one, I feel this is about power and earth connections, things here are not what they are in the Uk.

Alan

 

[symmetal]

6 minutes ago, alan potts said:

I believe it is just a 1.5m cable maybe 2m but for sure no longer, that first issue with mount stopping is an odd one, I feel this is about power and earth connections, things here are not what they are in the Uk.

That length cable should be fine. Just be sure it's a firm connection in the camera and doesn't easily wobble about. A bonus with USB3 is that the cables are a more snug fit compared to USB2. That's the reason I swapped my USB2 cables for the Lindy Chromo cables (as FLO now stock). They look nice but the snug fit is the bonus. 

Alan

[alan potts]

16 minutes ago, symmetal said:

That length cable should be fine. Just be sure it's a firm connection in the camera and doesn't easily wobble about. A bonus with USB3 is that the cables are a more snug fit compared to USB2. That's the reason I swapped my USB2 cables for the Lindy Chromo cables (as FLO now stock). They look nice but the snug fit is the bonus. 

Alan

I don't have a USB 3 laptop, only 2 desktops with it. I don't really want to put one of those in the observatory, both have 16gb of ram and I use them for processing, the office model is sort of the wife's, wouldn't dare move that, I would have to move.

Alan

[symmetal]

58 minutes ago, alan potts said:

I don't have a USB 3 laptop, only 2 desktops with it. I don't really want to put one of those in the observatory, both have 16gb of ram and I use them for processing, the office model is sort of the wife's, wouldn't dare move that, I would have to move.

Alan

No I wasn't suggesting you to use USB3, just to use USB2 cables that are a good fit in the camera USB3 connector as a wobbly connector can cause problems. 

Alan

[alan potts]

35 minutes ago, symmetal said:

No I wasn't suggesting you to use USB3, just to use USB2 cables that are a good fit in the camera USB3 connector as a wobbly connector can cause problems. 

Alan

Yes all seems fine, however you have prompted me to look at the laptop, I know one of the Lenovo's has a couple of faulty USB ports, I have 3 the same I got in a job lot here. That said I feel it has made a stacked Darks file so I think it is working. What I am having serious problems with is not know what or when the camera is doing something. E.G, when you just turn on sharpcap the top of the screen basically tells you nothing is happening, but there is a line along the bottom counting frames and clocking up time in a bar shaped green line implying it is working on an exposure, no noise nothing, I hate it, have not even considered how you dither with it. Beginning to with I bought a new mount instead and stuck to the Canon 40D

[Adam J]

On 20/08/2019 at 18:37, ollypenrice said:

I've no experience of CMOS cameras but some seem to have a big amp glow and dithering won't take this out. Only darks will do that. Please regard this post as no more than a 'Heads up' because it doesn't come from experience and merely draws on posts I've read from users. The necessary homework should be straightforward.

Olly

The IMX071 and most sensors designed for DSLR cameras don't have amp glow. In general it's the machine vision chips that give the amp glow as the are not intended for long exposures by design. 

[symmetal]

1 hour ago, alan potts said:

Yes all seems fine, however you have prompted me to look at the laptop, I know one of the Lenovo's has a couple of faulty USB ports, I have 3 the same I got in a job lot here. That said I feel it has made a stacked Darks file so I think it is working. What I am having serious problems with is not know what or when the camera is doing something. E.G, when you just turn on sharpcap the top of the screen basically tells you nothing is happening, but there is a line along the bottom counting frames and clocking up time in a bar shaped green line implying it is working on an exposure, no noise nothing, I hate it, have not even considered how you dither with it. Beginning to with I bought a new mount instead and stuck to the Canon 40D

I checked out Sharpcap and it is intended for video imaging for planets, moon etc. using many short exposures and is not really suitable for long exposure imaging. Dithering isn't used for planetary imaging so wouldn't be a feature. The default file capture format is AVI (a video format) means its intended use is planetary imaging. It has a very good polar alignment tool, useful for setting up your mount for long exposure imaging, but good polar alignment isn't a requirement for video imaging. Sharpcap doesn't support camera cooling either on first glance, as for planetary imaging that isn't important. Taking a thousand extra video frames to stack would remove the extra noise due to not being cooled.

I would just use Sharpcap for polar alignment if you wish, and then use APT for your long exposure imaging as you're familar with that from your DSLR imaging, and there's really little difference between DSLR and astro camera imaging in that respect. You have dithering available and set point cooling with APT.

Also, proper gain and offset settings can be set in the Ascom driver using APT. The gain setting in Sharpcap does correspond to the Zwo gain settings I believe, but the offset setting is called 'brightness' under Image Controls section and the numbers don't correspond to the actual Zwo offset settings, but are arbitrary values used looking at the histogram to avoid black clipping.

Alan

Edited August 23, 2019 by symmetal

[alan potts]

It does support cooling, it is the only thing I have actually got to work. I have taken it off the telescope and re fitted my Canon, I have lovely sky and I am not wasting any more nights doing something I don't understand, I may even send it back. I agree Sharpcap is aimed at planetary but people keep pointing me that way I have taken it off the laptop too. If it doesn't work with APT then it's not for me. At the moment it doesn't, I have messaged the APT man himself. I am sure I will get there, people on here are kind and do really help, but like me sometimes they don't always read all that has been said and offer information that is way over my head, this is not difficult.

Alan

[david_taurus83]

Hi Alan. I'm sure APT uses native ZWO drivers so it should work. When you use it for the first time it is a little different to a Canon. Are you using a ZWO guide camera? Maybe APT has connected to this instead and caused a connectivity issue with PHD and the mount? I have made this mistake myself a few months back when I got a new guide camera. APT connected to the guide camera over the main imaging camera.

[Anthonyexmouth]

1 hour ago, alan potts said:

It does support cooling, it is the only thing I have actually got to work. I have taken it off the telescope and re fitted my Canon, I have lovely sky and I am not wasting any more nights doing something I don't understand, I may even send it back. I agree Sharpcap is aimed at planetary but people keep pointing me that way I have taken it off the laptop too. If it doesn't work with APT then it's not for me. At the moment it doesn't, I have messaged the APT man himself. I am sure I will get there, people on here are kind and do really help, but like me sometimes they don't always read all that has been said and offer information that is way over my head, this is not difficult.

Alan

I'm struggling to follow this thread.

I'm using ZWO cameras with APT.

Can you break down your main problems into a few bullet points to clarify your issues and I might see whats going wrong for you. 

[alan potts]

16 minutes ago, Anthonyexmouth said:

I'm struggling to follow this thread.

I'm using ZWO cameras with APT.

Can you break down your main problems into a few bullet points to clarify your issues and I might see whats going wrong for you. 

Ascom Driver loaded for APT.

Selected Ascom camera in section.

APT tells me camera connected.

Will not cool the camera all connection fine.

Will not take a shot all connections OK .

The power thing I mentioned at the begining was when I first plug the camera in and turned the cooling on using sharpcap, it stopped the mount tracking dead. Sharpcap is not for me.

many thanks

Alan

[symmetal]

Hi Alan, 

I just tried my 071 with APT and it worked with no problems. I also tried using a USB2 cable instead of USB3 and it still worked. When you first connect the camera you need to select CCD: ASCOM camera. The Zwo native drivers don't appear in the drop down box. When you click OK and the ASCOM camera chooser dialog appears. Choose ASI Camera 1 and then the 'Properties' button. Choose the ASI 071 camera (if you have more than one camera connected) and here you can select the gain/offset (choose unity gain from the drop down menu) and whether you want the anti-dew heater to be on. If you are in humid conditions it's worth having it on but for now can be left off. Then click OK and APT will say 'Camera Connected'. I tried a few long exposures with no problems.

There is a kind of bug in the Ascom camera selector screen. When the Ascom Camera chooser box appears select the camera fairly quickly and then the camera options and the OK. I've found that taking more than a couple of seconds to choose the camera it may crash requiring a restart of APT. Also if you click away from the camera selection window to another program or window before you've made the selection and options and clicked OK on the ASCOM dialog, it will almost certainly crash the program. This is not an APT problem as it happens the same if I use FireCapture for planetary imaging. It happens with other cameras and not just the 071. SGP which I normally use for imaging seems more tolerant of this ASCOM chooser dialog as it normally doesn't cause a problem. If it's the only camera connected after the first time of setting up it will automatically connect without the Ascom chooser box appearing.

Edit: As my USB2 cable is plugged into the PC USB3 socket it is able to supply 1A to the camera so wouldn't cause a power problem if the 12V power supply isn't used to power the camera as it says it does. I can install the drivers on my USB2 laptop and try the camera there with and without the 12V supply so see if there is any issue. I'll report back.

Here's a screen shot with the camera connected, cooled and then warmed and a 60s exposure taken. No errors

Alan

Edited August 23, 2019 by symmetal

[Anthonyexmouth]

2 minutes ago, alan potts said:

Ascom Driver loaded for APT.

Selected Ascom camera in section.

APT tells me camera connected.

Will not cool the camera all connection fine.

Will not take a shot all connections OK .

The power thing I mentioned at the begining was when I first plug the camera in and turned the cooling on using sharpcap, it stopped the mount tracking dead. Sharpcap is not for me.

many thanks

Alan

ok, first thing to confirm is APT detecting the camera.

does it show the correct camera in the bottom right where mine shows up?

what happens when you try and start the cooling aid?

 

[alan potts]

28 minutes ago, symmetal said:

Hi Alan, 

I just tried my 071 with APT and it worked with no problems. I also tried using a USB2 cable instead of USB3 and it still worked. When you first connect the camera you need to select CCD: ASCOM camera. The Zwo native drivers don't appear in the drop down box. When you click OK and the ASCOM camera chooser dialog appears. Choose ASI Camera 1 and then the 'Properties' button. Choose the ASI 071 camera (if you have more than one camera connected) and here you can select the gain/offset (choose unity gain from the drop down menu) and whether you want the anti-dew heater to be on. If you are in humid conditions it's worth having it on but for now can be left off. Then click OK and APT will say 'Camera Connected'. I tried a few long exposures with no problems.

There is a kind of bug in the Ascom camera selector screen. When the Ascom Camera chooser box appears select the camera fairly quickly and then the camera options and the OK. I've found that taking more than a couple of seconds to choose the camera it may crash requiring a restart of APT. Also if you click away from the camera selection window to another program or window before you've made the selection and options and clicked OK on the ASCOM dialog, it will almost certainly crash the program. This is not an APT problem as it happens the same if I use FireCapture for planetary imaging. It happens with other cameras and not just the 071. SGP which I normally use for imaging seems more tolerant of this ASCOM chooser dialog as it normally doesn't cause a problem. If it's the only camera connected after the first time of setting up it will automatically connect without the Ascom chooser box appearing.

Edit: As my USB2 cable is plugged into the PC USB3 socket it is able to supply 1A to the camera so wouldn't cause a power problem if the 12V power supply isn't used to power the camera as it says it does. I can install the drivers on my USB2 laptop and try the camera there with and without the 12V supply so see if there is any issue. I'll report back.

Here's a screen shot with the camera connected, cooled and then warmed and a 60s exposure taken. No errors

Alan

I will set up a camera and program tomorrow in the house and try this. I am fairly sure this is what I got.

[alan potts]

13 minutes ago, Anthonyexmouth said:

ok, first thing to confirm is APT detecting the camera.

does it show the correct camera in the bottom right where mine shows up?

what happens when you try and start the cooling aid?

 

I will go over this tomorrow in the house with a scope, camera and laptop. When I tried this cooling it srated but stopped saying something like it could not reach temp, but I am not sure of the exact wording, it didn't work is all I know.

Kind of you to try for me, I will report back tomorrow on what happen, with my luck it will work in the house but not outside.

Alan

[Anthonyexmouth]

2 minutes ago, alan potts said:

I will go over this tomorrow in the house with a scope, camera and laptop. When I tried this cooling it srated but stopped saying something like it could not reach temp, but I am not sure of the exact wording, it didn't work is all I know.

Kind of you to try for me, I will report back tomorrow on what happen, with my luck it will work in the house but not outside.

Alan

ok, the cooling problem is easily solved, set the cooling step to 0.0 and let the driver deal with the cooling NOT APT. 

 

[alan potts]

2 minutes ago, Anthonyexmouth said:

ok, the cooling problem is easily solved, set the cooling step to 0.0 and let the driver deal with the cooling NOT APT. 

 

I will bear that in mind Anthony,

Alan

[Dragon_Astro]

2 hours ago, symmetal said:

I checked out Sharpcap and it is intended for video imaging for planets, moon etc. using many short exposures and is not really suitable for long exposure imaging. Dithering isn't used for planetary imaging so wouldn't be a feature. The default file capture format is AVI (a video format) means its intended use is planetary imaging. It has a very good polar alignment tool, useful for setting up your mount for long exposure imaging, but good polar alignment isn't a requirement for video imaging. Sharpcap doesn't support camera cooling either on first glance, as for planetary imaging that isn't important. Taking a thousand extra video frames to stack would remove the extra noise due to not being cooled.

I would just use Sharpcap for polar alignment if you wish, and then use APT for your long exposure imaging as you're familar with that from your DSLR imaging, and there's really little difference between DSLR and astro camera imaging in that respect. You have dithering available and set point cooling with APT.

Also, proper gain and offset settings can be set in the Ascom driver using APT. The gain setting in Sharpcap does correspond to the Zwo gain settings I believe, but the offset setting is called 'brightness' under Image Controls section and the numbers don't correspond to the actual Zwo offset settings, but are arbitrary values used looking at the histogram to avoid black clipping.

Alan

SharpCap can be used for long subs for deep sky work, because I do for subs lasting minutes, along with many other people. SharpCap can also be used to capture Fit file format as well as PNG.

The “offset” is the “black level” slider under the gain.

It can also capture your Light subs and apply your master Dark frame to it at the same time, it saves all your various darks in a folder. 

The latest version of SharpCap also does dithering linked with PhD2.

[symmetal]

Hi Alan,

Following on from my previous post I installed APT and the ZWO drivers along with ASCOM itself (forgot about that )  on my Laptop with USB2 ports and it all performed with no problems. Without the 12V supply it took long exposures OK and with the 12V connected cooled it by 20 degrees using the default APT cooling aid settings, took a couple of 1 min exposures and warmed it back up. Also the Ascom camera selection didn't play up like it does on at least two of my other PCs.  Maybe I need to reinstall Ascom on them.

Although a USB2 socket should supply up to 0.5A this may not be true in all laptops where they have possibly skimped on the power. In order to confirm that the camera uses the 12V when it's connected and not the USB power, I'll have to cut open a USB2 cable and cut the power wire to insert an ammeter to measure it. I'm happy to do that as I have plenty of old USB2 cables lying around doing nothing.

See how your test goes when you try it indoors tomorrow.

Alan

[symmetal]

2 hours ago, Dragon_Astro said:

SharpCap can be used for long subs for deep sky work, because I do for subs lasting minutes, along with many other people. SharpCap can also be used to capture Fit file format as well as PNG.

The “offset” is the “black level” slider under the gain.

It can also capture your Light subs and apply your master Dark frame to it at the same time, it saves all your various darks in a folder. 

The latest version of SharpCap also does dithering linked with PhD2.

I have the latest version. With the 071 connected the cooling option does appear so that's fine.

There's no black level slider under the gain. The 'Brightness' setting under 'Image Controls' does go from 0 to 80 so it looks like it may be the same as 'Offset'. If it is it should be under 'Camera Controls'. The gain goes up to 600 while the Zwo 071 driver gain goes to 240. If I use the Ascom driver the 'Brightness' setting disappears so it is most probably 'Offset'.

Eventually found dithering under live stacking. Live stacking is handy for EEVA but isn't used for normal DSO imaging. While you can tick 'Save Individual Frames', everything is really concerned with the stacking, so really 99% of the features available aren't used.

I'm sure you can do standard long exposure imaging, but the program is not tailored for this which is why Alan found it difficult to work with.

I'm not knocking the program, what it does it does well with good features but it's main purpose isn't 'standard' DSO imaging.

Alan

[alan potts]

9 hours ago, Dragon_Astro said:

SharpCap can be used for long subs for deep sky work, because I do for subs lasting minutes, along with many other people. SharpCap can also be used to capture Fit file format as well as PNG.

The “offset” is the “black level” slider under the gain.

It can also capture your Light subs and apply your master Dark frame to it at the same time, it saves all your various darks in a folder. 

The latest version of SharpCap also does dithering linked with PhD2.

I am sure Sharpcap does work but I found it very difficult to understand after being use to PHD and APT which to me at least were straight forward, even though the latter in this case I couldn't get to work. The cooling was about the only thing that I clicked with, but appear to have taken some Darks which it seems to stack for you. So at least it ruled out the camera as the problem and cables too.

I just, maybe unfairly, didn't like Sharpcap.

Alan

[alan potts]

6 hours ago, symmetal said:

Hi Alan,

Following on from my previous post I installed APT and the ZWO drivers along with ASCOM itself (forgot about that )  on my Laptop with USB2 ports and it all performed with no problems. Without the 12V supply it took long exposures OK and with the 12V connected cooled it by 20 degrees using the default APT cooling aid settings, took a couple of 1 min exposures and warmed it back up. Also the Ascom camera selection didn't play up like it does on at least two of my other PCs.  Maybe I need to reinstall Ascom on them.

Although a USB2 socket should supply up to 0.5A this may not be true in all laptops where they have possibly skimped on the power. In order to confirm that the camera uses the 12V when it's connected and not the USB power, I'll have to cut open a USB2 cable and cut the power wire to insert an ammeter to measure it. I'm happy to do that as I have plenty of old USB2 cables lying around doing nothing.

See how your test goes when you try it indoors tomorrow.

Alan

Grant said power was and would not be a problem as I was using the correct transformer bought from FLO, in any case it would appear I have taken a set of Darks which Sharpcap stacked and this alone rules out power supply and cables. The laptop though older is a top quality Thinkpad made to professional standards not the normal machines that are bought in Techno Markets, the 3 of these came from a friend who is really expert at IT, he told me the build quality of these laptops is much better than shop bought, showing me the copper heat sinks inside on and around the processor. It was also only the camera that was connected to the laptop so it was supplying nothing else, I feel this is not the issue, it's more likely something I haven't done, or have done wrongly.

Alan

[alan potts]

Good morning all that are trying to help me. Good news!!

Taken everything inside connected up and APT now works as it should, I think a plug connection on the power side was far from good but above all I wonder if inside the observatory it was too hot for the timeouts on the cooling, it was over 30c maybe 34/5c inside.

So all looks OK now lets see if I can replicate things tonight.

Alan

[symmetal]

Glad to hear it is now all working with APT. I found with mine that 30 degrees is the most it can cool. Hope there's no more thoughts of sending the camera back. 

Alan