Sirius B and E/F stars - what does it take!?

[Whistlin Bob]

4 minutes ago, mikeDnight said:

It's my belief that we visual observers are a truly sincere bunch who would never intentionally mislead others, or ourselves.

Strongly agree with the sentiment of this paragraph. The key word here is 'intentionally'. A couple of months ago I posted an observing report where I described seeing a hint of a tail on comet 46p. On that night I had spent a long time looking around the object as it was much the best view I had had of a comet and wrote down what I had seen. I was nonetheless challenged on my report and after a lot of reading I'm now doubtful about what I saw, so it's excellent the corroboration you have of your Saturn observation.

FWIW I find the reports on Sirius Pup completely credible- I'd just like to be able to write one! ?

[markclaire50]

24 minutes ago, Whistlin Bob said:

Great thread.

In 4 years of observing with an 8" dob (and as an M42 fan!) I hadn't seen either e or f stars. Last year I took the plunge and got a 14" and have been observing them regularly this winter. Initially they were something of a struggle, but it has become easier. I've found they're a lot easier in my Celestron 7mm Xcel than in my Baader zoom at 8mm. Last week I saw them in the 8" for the first time; which suggests to me that the observer is also a key factor in this!

Was going through my logs and I've had several goes at Sirius pup- no joy so far!

Hi. What I find interesting is the number of accounts of people finding the same target easier after seeing it in larger scope. What's going on there? By that, I mean subsequently finding it easier in the smaller scope when they couldn't see it before. 

[Geoff Barnes]

As I've mentioned a couple of times above, for me Downunder Orion and Sirius pass overhead very high in the sky during our summer (Dec-March), and with my 12 inch SW Dob I have no trouble at all seeing E & F, and the Pup I can usually see most times. This I'm sure underlines the advantage of good seeing for me as opposed to your disadvantageously low elevation of these targets. 

Swings and roundabouts though, you have lots of wonderful targets to view up there that I can never see down here! ?

[markclaire50]

1 minute ago, Geoff Barnes said:

As I've mentioned a couple of times above, for me Downunder Orion and Sirius pass overhead very high in the sky during our summer (Dec-March), and with my 12 inch SW Dob I have no trouble at all seeing E & F, and the Pup I can usually see most times. This I'm sure underlines the advantage of good seeing for me as opposed to your disadvantageously low elevation of these targets. 

Swings and roundabouts though, you have lots of wonderful targets to view up there that I can never see down here! ?

Hi Geoff. Does Sirius sparkle when you look at it? With less air to go through, I was wondering. 

[Geoff Barnes]

16 minutes ago, markclaire50 said:

Hi Geoff. Does Sirius sparkle when you look at it? With less air to go through, I was wondering. 

Actually now I think about it, no it really doesn't. Most of the time it seems quite steady, as do Rigel, Betelgeuse, Canopus and most others at high elevation. Capella on the other hand, which is way down on the northern horizon here, twinkles like a good'un.

[John]

1 hour ago, markclaire50 said:

Hi. What I find interesting is the number of accounts of people finding the same target easier after seeing it in larger scope. What's going on there? By that, I mean subsequently finding it easier in the smaller scope when they couldn't see it before. 

Thats the same for most challenging astro targets I find. Once you know what to look for it's easier the next time around and often can be achieved with a smaller aperture.

The first time is the hardest by far.

[Astro Imp]

2 hours ago, mikeDnight said:

It's my belief that we visual observers are a truly sincere bunch who would never intentionally mislead others, or ourselves. It's true that we all have different levels of visual acuity, and use telescopes that have different specialities. Yet I wouldn't question the truthfulness of an observation, but would thrill at the challenge of emulating it.

 

I'm sure you are right. I see no point in deceiving yourself, this isn't a competition. Observing difficult targets is for me a way of improving my skills as an observer. If I've looked and failed to see what I'm looking for so be it, try again another night. 

[John]

13 minutes ago, John said:

Thats the same for most challenging astro targets I find. Once you know what to look for it's easier the next time around and often can be achieved with a smaller aperture.

The first time is the hardest by far.

This also touches on the value that experience and observing technique play in being able to discern challenging targets. Knowing what I know now I would hesitate to say that scope X plus eyepiece Y will definitely show you challenging target Z. The potential is there but the seeing conditions and experience / technique of the observer play major roles as well.

You can throw money into kit but you need to put the time into getting the best out of it as well.

 

[markclaire50]

2 hours ago, Geoff Barnes said:

Actually now I think about it, no it really doesn't. Most of the time it seems quite steady, as do Rigel, Betelgeuse, Canopus and most others at high elevation. Capella on the other hand, which is way down on the northern horizon here, twinkles like a good'un.

I think this is our problem in our case in uk. The sparkling makes it a nightmare to pick out the pup. Like having a halogen torch waved in your face with a tiny LED bulb strapped to the torch. In this case, the pup is the LED. ??

[markclaire50]

1 hour ago, Astro Imp said:

I'm sure you are right. I see no point in deceiving yourself, this isn't a competition. Observing difficult targets is for me a way of improving my skills as an observer. If I've looked and failed to see what I'm looking for so be it, try again another night. 

Hi. I think this is why I kept staring at where I knew the E star should be, until I had a few seconds where my brain could run a self-diagnostic to confirm a definite tiny point of light was really there! I needed to be very certain I'd held a real object in view in my 127 mak and not an imaginary one. ??

[markclaire50]

1 hour ago, John said:

This also touches on the value that experience and observing technique play in being able to discern challenging targets. Knowing what I know now I would hesitate to say that scope X plus eyepiece Y will definitely show you challenging target Z. The potential is there but the seeing conditions and experience / technique of the observer play major roles as well.

You can throw money into kit but you need to put the time into getting the best out of it as well.

 

Absolutely agree. I'm hoping to do both when I finally decide between the two remaining contenders of 180mak and C9.25, the latter now being ahead. I think based on many posts on these two scopes, especially the latter, I'd be failing badly if I can't see many many things of interest that are beyond my current tools. I've managed to fight off a severe attack of Feverali Aperturalis, which had me hallucinating about 12-14" and even 16" dobs, then C14s, as I don't have the storage and/or money for them!

Sanity has been restored! ? 

Mark 

[mikeDnight]

3 hours ago, Geoff Barnes said:

As I've mentioned a couple of times above, for me Downunder Orion and Sirius pass overhead very high in the sky during our summer (Dec-March), and with my 12 inch SW Dob I have no trouble at all seeing E & F, and the Pup I can usually see most times. This I'm sure underlines the advantage of good seeing for me as opposed to your disadvantageously low elevation of these targets. 

Swings and roundabouts though, you have lots of wonderful targets to view up there that I can never see down here! ?

That's right!  We've got Blackpool Tower, which I can see from the moors around Burnley. In winter time I can see it with its illuminations  too!  I was stood at a roadside car park a number of years back with my friend Phil, and had a scope aimed horizontally at the Tower. A car pulled over and the driver got out to ask what we were looking at. When i told him "Blackpool Tower", he said "you're having me on", "Blimey, my wife will never believe me when I tell her"!  The more I think about my life up north, I realize that its just like the comedy The Last Of The Summer Wine. Completely surreal!

 

[Paz]

3 hours ago, mikeDnight said:

  Over the years I've seen some amazing things that would lead some to really question the reliability of my observations. One such observation was when I saw a peppered, (assumed boulder strewn), outer edge to Saturn's rings, when the rings were almost edge on.(Many would scoff at this)! I told no-one, but on the following night I was observing Saturn again with a friend using the same 120ED refractor, and again the same peppered outer edge was on show, visible as the outer A ring crossed the planet's disc. Again I said nothing incase I influenced my observing buddy to agree when he actually couldn't see it. But he did see it, and without my influence. This gave me confidence in my friends visual acuity, and it gave him a terrific confidence boost.  The following morning i had a phone call from paulastro, who had also been observing Saturn that previous night using a 127 Maksutov Cassegrain, at a distance of around seventeen miles from my observing site. Paul too had seen this most amazing site and phoned to see if I'd seen it also. So three observers, without influencing eachother in any way, saw the same improbable site using good but small aperture amateur telescopes.

It's my belief that we visual observers are a truly sincere bunch who would never intentionally mislead others, or ourselves. It's true that we all have different levels of visual acuity, and use telescopes that have different specialities. Yet I wouldn't question the truthfulness of an observation, but would thrill at the challenge of emulating it.

I feel I have seen hints of the pup on a couple of occasions, but I've never really spent time on this target to be certain enough to say I've definitely seen it. This makes a nice little project for the future. I am completely confident however, that other keen eyed observers have seen it successfully, so I can live in hope! 

 

I agree, and I think the kind of people who enjoy amateur astronomy would tend to be sceptical of their own observations and prudent in their reports.

I got so used to the bad conditions in this country that the first occasions where I experienced really good conditions where I had gained enough experience to appreciate the difference  it made me doubt what I was seeing sometimes.

I think also there is great variation in eyesight acuity. As a boy I read lots of books about world war 2 fighter pilots and stories about certain pilots being able to see enemy planes long before the rest of their squadron came up independently many times in different places.

I read lots of Cloudy Nights forum threads in the early days of my observing (I've never been brave enough to post there!) and my expectations were as a result set too high with so many places over the pond allowing far more magnification than we can use here.

[Paz]

1 hour ago, John said:

Thats the same for most challenging astro targets I find. Once you know what to look for it's easier the next time around and often can be achieved with a smaller aperture.

The first time is the hardest by far.

I have found this to be the case and have rediscovered this a few times on different types of object.

I spent weeks looking for Andromeda with no luck, one day I finally saw it and finally clocked what it looked like. I've never missed it since. I then had the same with M1, I had found the spot and just couldn't see it. After a lot of head scratching I clocked that and ever since it's been easy to see (I think my brain was expecting something smaller and brighter like M57). Being able to see peanuts and bars when double star observing was also an acquired skill, and the list goes on.

[Eastman]

I try it every time I go out but I can not see E and F. Perhaps the circumstances are not good enough because with a 10" dob it must be possible.

Keep on trying ?

[markclaire50]

16 minutes ago, Eastman said:

I try it every time I go out but I can not see E and F. Perhaps the circumstances are not good enough because with a 10" dob it must be possible.

Keep on trying ?

Hi

Others on here can help more than me, but from everything I've read, assuming your scope is well collimated, I'll bet you will see E soon! F should be possible too in a 10" Dob.