Sirius B and E/F stars - what does it take!?

[Stu]

E & F showing nicely in the Mewlon tonight. F is nicely resolved when the seeing steadies. Rigel is looking mighty fine, pinpoint bright secondary. Sirius is not in a good position yet, might give it a try later.

[John]

Very good "Pup" night here tonight

Some of the clearest views that I've had of the ellusive little thing. 318x (Pentax XW 5mm) with the 12 inch dob is doing the trick with the Pup clearly visible consistently as Sirius A trails across the FoV. It's positioned at somewhere around the 2 o'clock to 2.30 position on the "clock face". the glare from the primary seems less than on other nights - nice stable conditions. Sirius B is just on the edge of the flaring from the A star rather than deep within it. Got a split of 52 and 32 Orionis with the 12 inch dob as well tonight - good going for the old light bucket !

 

[markclaire50]

14 minutes ago, John said:

Very good "Pup" night here tonight

Some of the clearest views that I've had of the ellusive little thing. 318x (Pentax XW 5mm) with the 12 inch dob is doing the trick with the Pup clearly visible consistently as Sirius A trails across the FoV. It's positioned at somewhere around the 2 o'clock to 2.30 position on the "clock face". the glare from the primary seems less than on other nights - nice stable conditions. Sirius B is just on the edge of the flaring from the A star rather than deep within it. Got a split of 52 and 32 Orionis with the 12 inch dob as well tonight - good going for the old light bucket !

 

I'm toying with the idea of going out to set up my 127 mm mak, but I'm suspicious of sudden clouding over just after I've finished setting up. It's happened on more than one occasion and is very irritating! I have just torn a piece of clingfilm off a roll and put three black spots of different sizes on it, after reading the posts above. Idea is I put it over the front of my newly purchased 10mm BCO eyepiece. Then see if one of the different sized spots can do the job. Of course I have the minor problem with the neighbour's tree blocking Sirius for next hour, just in time for clouds to arrive! ??⌚

[John]

Well, I've tried to sketch the view through the eyepiece. Newtonian orientation, 318x magnification. Field stars that I saw in their possitions and relative angles as best I can. I've probably exagerrated the brightness of the stars a bit to show them on the sketch. Sirius B was less distinct than the sketch but clearly there:

 

[JTEC]

Thanks for sorting out the font, Stu ??  

Just to add a little bit to the earlier message. While the TEC shows the E and F stars routinely, except on nights of v poor seeing, my 6 inch f6 Astro Systems Newt, with excellent optics, can’t keep up.  The nicest view of the Trap region with the TEC was with a binoviewer with x1.7 (actually giving about x1.5) GPC on board and x2 Powermate ahead of the prism, with a pair of 18mm Tak LEs.  I don’t know what the final mag was because, presumably, it’ll vary with the spacing.  I find the 18mm Tak LEs to be excellent bino eyepieces, btw. 

When I turned the C11 on Sirius a few nights ago there, to my surprise, was the ‘Pup’ - but it was almost immediately lost again in the flashing and flaring of the main star and I never got it back. 

[Geoff Barnes]

It is interesting for me to see many of you in the UK struggling to see these targets, when down here at 37 degrees south of the Equator I seem to have no trouble at all.

Both Sirius and Orion pass overhead here at about 60 degrees elevation so quite high in the sky and well above any mirk and haze near the horizon. While I enjoy spotting E and F and Sirius B whenever I'm out observing I find I'm tending to say to myself "oh there they are again" and get a bit blasé and on to the next object...

I don't know what altitude these objects get above your horizon but it sounds like you have trees and houses blocking many of your views, so not very high it seems.

 

[John]

15 minutes ago, Geoff Barnes said:

 

....Both Sirius and Orion pass overhead here at about 60 degrees elevation so quite high in the sky and well above any mirk and haze near the horizon....

 

Thats why they are somewhat easier to observe for you Geoff

Sirius is really quite low from where I am in the SW UK but it must be even more challenging for friends further north.

Not only are we having to deal with atmospheric extinction and shimmer, it's winter and we are looking though lots of central heating plumes. Amazing we can see much at all at low altitudes I reckon !

[Greymouser]

14 hours ago, Geoff Barnes said:

Both Sirius and Orion pass overhead here at about 60 degrees elevation so quite high in the sky and well above any mirk and haze near the horizon.

That sentence alone, is a reason to emigrate to Australia. ( Other reasons are available... )

[John]

It was odd seeing Mars right overhead when I was in Australia in November. Here, at opposition, earlier in the year, Mars had been bumbling along close to the horizon. That low elevation plus the planet wide dust storm, meant that the views of Mars were not quite as good as the excellent opposition promised

 

[Geoff Barnes]

I can definitely recommend a visit Downunder in our summer to all of you up there if you want to view the best DSO objects out there at nice high elevations! ?

(And we would be happy to accommodate you too!).

[Demonperformer]

7 hours ago, Geoff Barnes said:

(And we would be happy to accommodate you too!).

All 60,000 of us? ?

[Geoff Barnes]

3 minutes ago, Demonperformer said:

All 60,000 of us? ?

Well, one at a time then, form an orderly queue please. ?

[Demonperformer]

Maybe what is needed is for people to "pair up". Two members who have permanent setups that can be run remotely, one N hemisphere, one S hemisphere, who agree to use the setups on alternate nights ...

[markclaire50]

Reactivating this thread! ?

I was reading a thread on Cloudy Nights, from last year. A Danish guy at 55° North said he'd found the Pup easy in a 5" achromatic. He was extremely surprised, but confident. Part of thread then went on to talk about various small apertures down to 80mm that had seen it. But one NEW thing that caught my eye was a discussion about seeing it with and without mirror diagonal. BUT, not just that! One person said they could see the Pup with their Prism diagonal but not their mirror diagonal AND they couldn't see it directly through their scope, but could with the prism diagonal!! What's that all about? ? ? 

I thought direct through scope would ways be superior? But for some reason, not in this case. 

So, anyone here tried to see pup with and without diagonal AND/OR with Prism diagonal and Mirror diagonal to see if it pup pops out? 

Oh, before I forget, the Danish guy said he didn't expect it, because the seeing was average but he thought the sky was very clear that night. Basically he said really good seeing was not essential and transparency as important. ?At least where he was located anyway. 

Any thoughts on the prism/mirror thing? 

Thanks 

Mark 

 

[John]

I've seen the Pup with my 130mm triplet refractor with an Astro Physics 2 inch dielectric diagonal installed. I've not tried without the diagonal though. I'll make a note to try it at the next opportunity. I could try the same scope on the same target with a Baader Zeiss prism diagonal as well, just out of interest.

 

 

[markclaire50]

1 hour ago, John said:

I've seen the Pup with my 130mm triplet refractor with an Astro Physics 2 inch dielectric diagonal installed. I've not tried without the diagonal though. I'll make a note to try it at the next opportunity. I could try the same scope on the same target with a Baader Zeiss prism diagonal as well, just out of interest.

 

 

I look forward to your report. The Danish guy reckoned it was light scatter from the mirror that meant it it didn't show whereas prism did. ?

[John]

59 minutes ago, markclaire50 said:

I look forward to your report. The Danish guy reckoned it was light scatter from the mirror that meant it it didn't show whereas prism did. ?

I can't say that I've honestly seen any noticable differences in planetary or double star performance between my Baader Zeiss prism and my Tele Vue or Astro Physics dielectric mirror diagonals during the past 3 years or so that I've owned them

While I've not compared their performance in the 130 triplet refractor, I have with my Tak FC-100DL on a number of occasions. I tend to use the Baader Zeiss prism with the Tak because it suits the slender form of that scope and I don't tend to want to use 2 inch eyepieces with that scope often.

I know others have reported that they discern differences though so maybe it varies person to person ?

 

 

 

[markclaire50]

47 minutes ago, John said:

I can't say that I've honestly seen any noticable differences in planetary or double star performance between my Baader Zeiss prism and my Tele Vue or Astro Physics dielectric mirror diagonals during the past 3 years or so that I've owned them

While I've not compared their performance in the 130 triplet refractor, I have with my Tak FC-100DL on a number of occasions. I tend to use the Baader Zeiss prism with the Tak because it suits the slender form of that scope and I don't tend to want to use 2 inch eyepieces with that scope often.

I know others have reported that they discern differences though so maybe it varies person to person ?

 

 

 

Hi John 

Here is a link to the discussion on CN. They also discuss Antares double. Very interesting read. 

https://www.cloudynights.com/topic/606893-sirius-b-observed/

Mark 

[John]

Thanks Mark. I think I have read that thread before I recall. I'm rather amazed that he got it at 73x with binoviewers. I takes all I've got to spot it with 250x !

Light scatter from Sirius A is the main issue that needs to be combatted to see the Pup star I agree. My experience is that this is caused by the seeing conditions, mostly. Personally I would not place the difference between a quality prism diagonal and a quality mirror diagonal too high up the list of contributory factors but thats just my take on things.

Apparently there are some doubts within what might be called "professional" circles as to whether us amateurs are seeing the Pup star at all. I'm pretty confident about what I've seen but there seem to be some very experienced binary star observers with powerful scopes out there who have yet to see this and they have their reservations about what we are reporting.

I have split Antares with my 130mm triplet as well, a couple of times. It's a very hard target to even see from my back yard though - it's visible only for a short period of time as it moves from behind a house and before it passes behind the branches of a large tree.

 

[markclaire50]

42 minutes ago, John said:

Thanks Mark. I think I have read that thread before I recall. I'm rather amazed that he got it at 73x with binoviewers. I takes all I've got to spot it with 250x !

Light scatter from Sirius A is the main issue that needs to be combatted to see the Pup star I agree. My experience is that this is caused by the seeing conditions, mostly. Personally I would not place the difference between a quality prism diagonal and a quality mirror diagonal too high up the list of contributory factors but thats just my take on things.

Apparently there are some doubts within what might be called "professional" circles as to whether us amateurs are seeing the Pup star at all. I'm pretty confident about what I've seen but there seem to be some very experienced binary star observers with powerful scopes out there who have yet to see this and they have their reservations about what we are reporting.

I have split Antares with my 130mm triplet as well, a couple of times. It's a very hard target to even see from my back yard though - it's visible only for a short period of time as it moves from behind a house and before it passes behind the branches of a large tree.

 

Hi John.

Perhaps the professionals need to use much smaller scopes ??

From posts on this and the CN site , it's hard not to conclude a ' weight of evidence' in favour of amateurs having sighted the pup. The scopes used are certainly capable of resolving it. It's simply the delta magnitude and latitude (UK) that makes it hard, although apparently not at 55°N!

I've seen photos taken with 180mm mak clearly showing a huge gap between the two stars. But seeing it visually appears much harder than photographically. 

Mark

[John]

The actual split is quite wide currently - around 10 arc seconds.

[chiltonstar]

It took me  long time to see it for the first time, but once having seen it with a larger scope, I found it relatively easy to see even with a smaller scope, BUT the seeing and transparency have to be excellent+ at 52N to avoid it being lost in the glare or haze around Sirius A. On one noteworthy occasion, I managed it with an ED80, although I had just cleaned all the optics of the objective, diagonal and EP to reduce scatter. It is a compulsive challenge though, and I always look if Sirius is up and the seeing good enough.

Chris

[markclaire50]

29 minutes ago, chiltonstar said:

It took me  long time to see it for the first time, but once having seen it with a larger scope, I found it relatively easy to see even with a smaller scope, BUT the seeing and transparency have to be excellent+ at 52N to avoid it being lost in the glare or haze around Sirius A. On one noteworthy occasion, I managed it with an ED80, although I had just cleaned all the optics of the objective, diagonal and EP to reduce scatter. It is a compulsive challenge though, and I always look if Sirius is up and the seeing good enough.

Chris

Hi Chris

Yes. My next plan is to try the pup with my 80ed with no diagonal and look straight through with my 6mm to give 100x. I'm hoping without the diagonal (which is the stock one) I might just reduce scatter enough. Interestingly in the case of the Danish guy in the CN link I posted earlier, he said he could see it easily at 73x mag using binoviewers and 5" achromatic refractor, and under relatively poor seeing at 55°N (although I do wonder what 'relatively' in Denmark would equate to in uk ?). It's also interesting that he commented how it was much more difficult to see the Pup when he tried single eyepieces instead of his binoviewer. Clearly there appears to be a plethora of variables at work even with same scope/same night. In his case, just altering things like diagonals (removing altogether or changing from mirror to prism) and binoviewer to single eyepiece was affecting his ability to see it through the same scope on the same night. 

Mark 

[mikeDnight]

11 hours ago, John said:

Thanks Mark. I think I have read that thread before I recall. I'm rather amazed that he got it at 73x with binoviewers. I takes all I've got to spot it with 250x !

Light scatter from Sirius A is the main issue that needs to be combatted to see the Pup star I agree. My experience is that this is caused by the seeing conditions, mostly. Personally I would not place the difference between a quality prism diagonal and a quality mirror diagonal too high up the list of contributory factors but thats just my take on things.

Apparently there are some doubts within what might be called "professional" circles as to whether us amateurs are seeing the Pup star at all. I'm pretty confident about what I've seen but there seem to be some very experienced binary star observers with powerful scopes out there who have yet to see this and they have their reservations about what we are reporting.

I have split Antares with my 130mm triplet as well, a couple of times. It's a very hard target to even see from my back yard though - it's visible only for a short period of time as it moves from behind a house and before it passes behind the branches of a large tree.

 

  Over the years I've seen some amazing things that would lead some to really question the reliability of my observations. One such observation was when I saw a peppered, (assumed boulder strewn), outer edge to Saturn's rings, when the rings were almost edge on.(Many would scoff at this)! I told no-one, but on the following night I was observing Saturn again with a friend using the same 120ED refractor, and again the same peppered outer edge was on show, visible as the outer A ring crossed the planet's disc. Again I said nothing incase I influenced my observing buddy to agree when he actually couldn't see it. But he did see it, and without my influence. This gave me confidence in my friends visual acuity, and it gave him a terrific confidence boost.  The following morning i had a phone call from paulastro, who had also been observing Saturn that previous night using a 127 Maksutov Cassegrain, at a distance of around seventeen miles from my observing site. Paul too had seen this most amazing site and phoned to see if I'd seen it also. So three observers, without influencing eachother in any way, saw the same improbable site using good but small aperture amateur telescopes.

It's my belief that we visual observers are a truly sincere bunch who would never intentionally mislead others, or ourselves. It's true that we all have different levels of visual acuity, and use telescopes that have different specialities. Yet I wouldn't question the truthfulness of an observation, but would thrill at the challenge of emulating it.

I feel I have seen hints of the pup on a couple of occasions, but I've never really spent time on this target to be certain enough to say I've definitely seen it. This makes a nice little project for the future. I am completely confident however, that other keen eyed observers have seen it successfully, so I can live in hope! 

 

[Whistlin Bob]

Great thread.

In 4 years of observing with an 8" dob (and as an M42 fan!) I hadn't seen either e or f stars. Last year I took the plunge and got a 14" and have been observing them regularly this winter. Initially they were something of a struggle, but it has become easier. I've found they're a lot easier in my Celestron 7mm Xcel than in my Baader zoom at 8mm. Last week I saw them in the 8" for the first time; which suggests to me that the observer is also a key factor in this!

Was going through my logs and I've had several goes at Sirius pup- no joy so far!