Sbig vs Atik vs QSI

[Astroboy239]

Which camera do you think will work the best in a humid hot climate.  Which has a better build and a better chip 

[ollypenrice]

The chips are bought-in by all firms.

For me it would be Atik or QSI. The effectivess of the cooling varies across the Atik range with the small cylindrical bodied cameras lacking cooling power for hotter climates, I'm told by a friend in Spain. The Atiks with two stage peltier coolers cool well. (I've had the 4000 and 11000. These two also have chip window heaters which are good defence against humidity.) The QSIs cool well. I don't how how they handle humidity.

Olly

[swag72]

I can not comment on SBIG as I've never used them. The Atik's I found did not have sufficient cooling out here in Spain and during the summer months I was struggling to reach zero degrees. The QSI has been brilliant out here, always runs at -15 and I've never had an issue with it getting to or staying at that. The Moravian also shows promise..... I've had that down to -15 during a warm day.......

 

[Astroboy239]

I use qsi ccd. I just wanted to know what is better in what case. Mine cools quiet well I need 14hrs approx more data in my first image with it. 

[Physopto]

QSI cameras also have an add on water cooling block that you can fit. A simple very small 12 volt aquarium pump will suffice to circulate cool water and allow much lower temperatures. Use silicon piping as it is flexible and long lasting. A simple bucket of water for the pump to sit in can also be cooled with added ice if really necessary. You will easily be able to obtain -20 deg C with a  low power consumption  in the camera.

Derek

[perfrej]

Being the not so proud owner of an ST-8300M, and the proud owner of a QSI, for me the choice is clear. I will, however, buy a Moravian camera as my next one. The SBIG was back to the US twice and they didn't manage to fix the issues it had with the temperature sensor. I then fixed it myself and it has actually worked since then. The build quality is so-so and it is a rather old electronic design. The QSI-683 is of fantastic build quality, and te fact that it can work with smaller filters is a winning point.

 

/p

 

/per

[ollypenrice]

17 hours ago, Physopto said:

QSI cameras also have an add on water cooling block that you can fit. A simple very small 12 volt aquarium pump will suffice to circulate cool water and allow much lower temperatures. Use silicon piping as it is flexible and long lasting. A simple bucket of water for the pump to sit in can also be cooled with added ice if really necessary. You will easily be able to obtain -20 deg C with a  low power consumption  in the camera.

Derek

The large format Atiks also have the water cooling facility but I've never dared to use it! I don't know anyone who has tried it either, but this could be a real bonus in very hot places.

Olly

[Physopto]

1 hour ago, ollypenrice said:

The large format Atiks also have the water cooling facility but I've never dared to use it! I don't know anyone who has tried it either, but this could be a real bonus in very hot places.

Olly

I have never tried it either. But have built  a fair few computers over the years. The last one being a water Intel® Core™2 Quad Processor Q6700. I water cooled it and the graphics card. Only had one leak and that was the header tank cracking due to the plastic becoming brittle with age. It was purposely fitted outside the computer so no problem. Using silicon tube ensures no deterioration for many years and is so flexible as to not affect tracking (less drag than the wires). The pipe only needs to be about 6mm diameter. I have the QSI kit just never needed it. The kit comes with the click/push fit connectors with "O" ring seals, just no piping. My intention was to fit it when I finally build the obsy to reduce power consumption in the camera. The fans need to be switched off when used so less electrical noise and vibration.

Derek

[Tim]

The look and build of the QSI cameras appeal to me, however I have and regularly use three Atik cameras, 460ex in mono and colour and mono 11000 and before that a 428ex. I am led to believe that Atik service is second to none, but I can't speak firsthand as nothing has gone wrong with the cameras yet. Only had them a few years though

Cheers

Tim

[FLO]

On 30 April 2016 at 15:47, Astroboy239 said:

Which camera do you think will work the best in a humid hot climate. 

Can I make a point, please, without mentioning brands  

When someone posts a question like yours we often hear sweeping statements like "I owned brand X and it's cooling was pants so I changed to brand Y, and it's cooling is great!"  But, if you investigate you will find brand X's camera was smaller than brand Y's.

Physics determines (assuming both cameras have decent Peltier coolers and are designed to draw heat from the sensor) a large camera will cool to lower temperatures than a small one.  When comparing the cooling abilities of two cameras, regardless of brand, they need to be roughly the same size for the comparison to be valid. 

We cannot entirely dismiss other factors but I suspect the cameras size will have a greater influence on it's ability to cool than it's brand. 

HTH, 

Steve 

[swag72]

16 minutes ago, FLO said:

.......Physics determines (assuming both cameras have decent Peltier coolers and are designed to draw heat from the sensor) a large camera will cool to lower temperatures than a small one.  When comparing the cooling abilities of two cameras, regardless of brand, they need to be roughly the same size for the comparison to be valid. ......

Thank you for pointing that out Steve - I will ensure that when I next comment on the cooling of the Atik compared to the QSI that I mention the small cylindrical build of the Atik 460 that I used and the larger build of the QSI. I appreciate you taking the time to post that comment, it's certainly a fair point

Thanks again....

[ncjunk]

It's not so much that a large camera cools more than a small one (i'm being pedantic but it could have a large empty case and no cooling!) it's just down to the cooling system it has in place. (Admittedly if you stick in a dual stage peltier and a large heat sink it's going to be in the bigger case unless it's built like the tardis)

The Atiks (460, 428) can cool down to 25 below Ambient so Saras 0deg in summer it is working to spec perfectly.

Atik ones do -38 or 40.

The qsi has a different cooling configuration and can do 35 to 45 below ambient.

It's only fair to comment based on whether it does what it says on the specification. 

Here in spain i get 0deg in the summer and some nights 5.  It can be 25 deg c Ambient so obviously 25 amb - 25 cooling only ever gets me down to 0 on the atik 428.

I'm more than happy with the build quility of the atiks and i'd love a qsi, I just can't afford an expensive new camera....one day.

I would not touch a qhy with a barge pole anymore. I've had problems or minor annoyances with each one i've owned.

 

 

[FLO]

2 hours ago, ncjunk said:

It's not so much that a large camera cools more than a small one (i'm being pedantic but it could have a large empty case and no cooling!) it's just down to the cooling system it has in place. (Admittedly if you stick in a dual stage peltier and a large heat sink it's going to be in the bigger case unless it's built like the tardis)

I was careful to say...

4 hours ago, FLO said:

...assuming both cameras have decent Peltier coolers and are designed to draw heat from the sensor

I am confident all three brands discussed here use quality coolers and intelligent case designs  

Size isn't everything(!) but when choosing a camera for use in a hot environment it is worth noting it's affect on a camera's cooling ability. 

HTH, 

Steve 

[ncjunk]

fair enough, I still disagree with your explanation (but not the overall sentiment). Both cameras can have decent peltier coolers designed to draw heat away but if one is a single stage and one a dual the delta t drop will be vastly different between the two both, however, comply with your statements (surely a single stage peltier can be a decent chap as well?).

The qhy8l has the same smallish design as the atik 428 but it's more correct to compare it to a larger atik one, only in terms of it's cooling capicity, as they both have a cooler designed to cool to a delta t of 40 deg (qhy is 40, atik is 38).

By the way i agree with everything you say, you're correct and i know you know more than me. It's just the physics lover in me likes statements to be more accurately defined. Saying gravity is = 9.81 is incorrect without defining where and to what accuracy or quoting the speed of light without defining the medium through which it's travelling.

Sorry for being annoying.

Dragging slightly back to topic-

So the cooling required for a hot environment would probably need to be delta t 45 if you have nights of 30 - 35 deg c. You'll be able to cool to -10 or -15. But does anyone know how they handle high humidity in the same conditions? 

Olly mentioned the heater on the atik 1100 so would that help and do the others have anything similar?

 

 

 

[steppenwolf]

The QSI is Argon purged but does not have a chip window heater.

[Physopto]

It would be nice if the QSI cameras did have a heated chip compartment window. QSI seem to not be concerned by that fact. In a very humid environment I suppose it would alleviate a concern if not a real problem if one was fitted. So far I have not had a problem in that area at all, but not really expecting to here in the UK. I have had a problem with the SXV-AO-LF 'Active Optics' unit in that respect. It was solved by putting a dew heater around the William Optics TMB field flattener that was directly connected to it, thus providing some heating indirectly. So if that can happen here in the UK maybe the camera can have a similar problem in say Spain on a very humid night. Especially if using water cooling to reduce the chip down to -20 degrees C.

Derek