Pentax SP 10x50 WP Porros or Helios Apollo 15 x 70?

[Commanderfish]

Hi peeps,

Long time scoper and bino-forum lurker Fish here.  I've been reading about Binos for some time and want a pair of binos to use on those days where the gaps in the clouds are too short, or where I'm too tired and/or too cold after work/cycling home to spend 20 mins setting up the scopes and another 15 tearing them down.

In theory then, I'm looking for something hand-holdable which I can view in the garden or even lean on the frame out of our Velux roof windows, but in practise I have a really nice Manfrotto 405 geared head on a Redsnapper alu tripod with 4 section legs, which is currently not being used, and can easily be left set up in my study or bedroom with the legs retracted.  Portablility for use away from home is not a requirement.  If I go to a dark site I'll take my scopes, and if I did take Binos I'd probably take a tripod along.

I've done a lot of research and am not 100% whether to go for the lighter 10 x 50 Pentax SP Porro WP or a heftier 15 x 70 Helios Apollo.  I am used to the steadiness of a tripod, and have no issue with leaving a pair of binos set up on a tripod in my study, waiting to be carried out to the garden.  This means it's entirely workable for me to get 15 x 70s.  My research on 15x70s has lead me to the Helios Apollo, though they would be much heavier and not really suited for handholding, and cost more than double what I can get the 10 x 50 Pentax SP WP for.  

The Pentax only weigh a kilo so I could have quick handheld views out of the roof window.  Slightly concerned that the mag is so low compared to the scopes I'm used to - but tell me if this is irrelevant as binos are all so low powered compared to scopes.

At least 90% (if not all) of the use of these binos is going to be at home/in my garden, which has general South East England sky glow light pollution (though very little direct light pollution locally into the garden).  I'm 3 miles from Kingston, 16 miles from Central London Not sure if this LP has an effect on selection, I believe I've read that in suburban LP the advantage of a 15 x 70 is lessened?

Targets:  I'm looking for something that's good on:  wide star fields, open clusters and nebula.  It would be great if I could get any resolution at all on globs, but perhaps that's entirely unrealistic.  I know it won't be much use on planets or the moon and that's fine, I have scopes for those.  I've never had a good view of the North America nebula in scopes, and I've only detected one half of The Veil.  Would either pair of binos be any good on these; if so would one be better than the other, bearing in mind mild LP?

Exit pupils: in scopes I tend to enjoy exit pupils up to 4mm.   5mm and above tend to show a lot of LP and less contrast.  I don't know if it's the same in binos.  I have noticed that most binos have exit pupils of 5mm or higher.  Perhaps I would enjoy the Pentax 12 x 50 WP IIs a little more than the 10 x 50 or 15 x 70 due to their 4.2mm exit pupil?

As regards field of view, I am used to having my ED 80 set up as a spotter scope with a 4.4 degree field - but I have an RDF with it to make life really easy (I actually have a spare RDF I could attach to a pair of binos).

Finally:  given my existing capability to mount binos on a quality geared head with slow mo controls, should I be considering higher mag pairs like the 20 x 60 Pentax or 25 x 80 Helios Quantum 4s?  I know the field of view in these will be much smaller.

Cheers

Fish

[Mark at Beaufort]

Fish I have used binoculars for many years as a quick grab and go when I don't want to set up the main scopes. For years I used some Celestron 15x70 which I thought were pretty good. However several months ago I bought some Helios Apollo 15x70 and the difference is so much better. I handhold most of the time and last night I viewed many clusters plus M51, m81, M82 and Globs M53, M3 and M13. I also like these binos because I am able to screw in UHC or O-III filters. At the beginning of the year I had the best view of the Rosette Neb I have ever had with the whole Neb visible.

I appreciate you can have larger binos but I find the 15x70 is the best all round instrument for quick astro viewing.

[Putaendo Patrick]

Last year I bought a pair of 12x50 Vortex diamondback binoculars (which for me is the most magnification I can comfortably hand hold. They are almost always close by, in the car or out walking. I use them for just about everything; watching birds, animals etc. as well as general surveying of the night sky. If you think you might want to use your binoculars for additional viewing other than pure astronomy I personally would recommend the lower power.

[GimmeAMoonlite]

I have a pair of Helios Apollo 15x70 and they really are excellent. I used the last night to view M13 quite comfortable.

They feel perfectly balanced in your hands, but I struggle to hand hold them without any shaking (mind you I also struggle at times with my pair of 7x50).

Mounted om a photo tripod they work really well and that is how I mostly use them.

Get the 15x70 and you will have the best of all worlds.

[Commanderfish]

Excellent feed back, thanks all three of you. Yes I do worry about handshake, I used to get a lot of it when I had 10x50s for wildlife, but that was when I was 10 years old and they were 1980s heavy metal lumps. I do think handshake would annoy me in higher mag bins, but hey that's what my tripod and geared head are for. Well I had hoped that some of you would recommend the 10x50s as I can get them for 105 GBP at the moment, but I'm seeing yet more praise for the Apollos so I guess that's where I should go. They never seem to come up second hand, which may be an indicator of their keeper status. Any more feedback?

[Putaendo Patrick]

If you're happy with using a tripod, you might take a glance at:

Stu also lives in Surrey so you could possibly get to examine them in the flesh.

[Commanderfish]

Yeah I was wondering about those! I know Stu well, we are in the same astro club! The field is narrow though, 2 degrees I think. Don't think I could use it on big nebs at 2 degrees though? Also no chance of hand holding.

[spike95609]

There will be a long queue of people on SGL who can recommend the Helios Apollo 15x70 to you as they are a marvellous instrument. As others have said, they're not a great deal of fun to hand-hold, partly because of the considerable weight but also the higher magnification as it's very hard to hold that anywhere approaching steady. But if you're going to use a tripod then for me I don't think there's any contest really. The 10x50s will be wonderfully convenient for scanning the skies and will reveal a lot. The 15x70s though will be brighter, go deeper, and the extra magnification will help with star clusters. In light pollution or not I'd expect the 15x70 to be better, they pull in twice as much light and the lower exit pupil will give increased contrast which is always useful in average skies. I wouldn't get too excited about the possibility of seeing nebulae from where you are though, I imagine my light pollution problems are easier than yours and I've never seen the North American. Never tried for the Veil with binos and my OIII though so I don't know about that one.

[Commanderfish]

Thanks guys.  Well at 2am last night I woke up on the sofa having passed out from hay fever pills.  I let the dog out for a wee and found that the cloudy sky had cleared to reveal visibly blue white stars plus a handful of orangey red giants and a red object that Stellarium indicates is Mars.  I wished I had a pair of binos to check out Cygnus, Mars etc for 5 mins.  So I've ordered a pair of Apollos and a mounting bracket from RVO.   Should be with me tomorrow!

[Charic]

I  don't  find  binoculars give me the same impact compared to my telescope for planetary, or other fine details up there, excepting the Moon. I can make out Jupiter, but seeing just a bright white disk, if I can call it that? is not really appealing to me,  but I do find binoculars  more convenient to use at short notice, handheld, rested or even mounted, as is often the case at night, even for my 8x40's, the images are just so much sharper when  the optics are rock solid.

For night work,  my preference is for  low magnification with a  wide field of view to take in larger swathes of the sky, rather than expecting any finer details from more distant targets?

Its over 37 Years since I was last in Kingston,  and looking at Google Earth, so many changes to the area ? I do remember the Royal parks, but I assume they are closed to the public at night. Regents park in London gives access to the Astronomy club, so conditions in a large park or wooded area will always help your viewing conditions. I now live in NE Scotland, and on good nights, weather permitting, a drive of only five miles gives conditions that allows the Milky Way to cast a shadow, absolutely stunning for city dwellers who never see  even the brightest of Stars! My own observatory is flooded with street light, so conditions are not great at home, but by shielding my eyes from direct light sources, the results are somewhat better, but far from perfect. 

Of the binoculars I own, for night work I will always grab the 8x40s, ( I use these for close in work during the day) The  10x50's were bought as a general purpose, tough, waterproof go anywhere binocular, and my 15x70's , were bought on their price recommendation, but after having used them locally, and for the reasons given above, they are the least used binocular during the night, but through the day they are good for my needs? I once owned the  Helios Stellar 20x80's and remember seeing aircraft detail at +24000 feet in great detail ( testing on the day of purchase ) but difficult to hold due to their weight, and at night I just wished they had more field of view. I also recall the outline of Saturn ( as I write )  but just an outline, not sharp, no detail?

I bought the 20x80s on impulse, as there was something amiss about their price  back then  of  only £125?   and they even gave me a free pair of roof prism's too,  their name eludes me at present.

There's  a quantity of reasons that need to be fulfilled in order to get the best from your binoculars,  I don't think price alone can fix it!. I still wonder, if I had located the Fujinon's  that I was seeking the last time I made a trip to London, would they have provided a better image than those I see now? Like tools in a box, a 13 mm spanner is really only useful on a 13mm bolt! One binocular will not satisfy all your needs.

 

Of your first two choices, the higher magnification  Helios 15x70's  reach further, but aside the Pentax 10x50's, under the same conditions, unless you have superhuman eyes, I think you would just notice the difference in the field of view,  possibly even  a colour difference depending on their optical coatings? I had the same situation when I invested in my Strathspey  binoculars, 7x50 vs. 10x50? Both gave the same colour, and brightness according to my eyes, just the field of view differed, and if it were not for the fact that my own Helios 8x40s provided and even wider field of view, I would have bought both pairs of the Strathspey Marine binoculars (no affiliation!).

So the pair you've purchased won't  be a mistake,  they could just end up being  first of many in your collection 

[Telescope40]

Hi. I have the Pentax 12 x 50's. Recent purchase from Dave F15Rules. Find them totally excellent in every way. Seen Jupiters moons for the first time using binos with this pair. 

Beat the Celestron 15 x 70s and 20 x 80s I've previously owned. Cannot comment on the Helios you mention. 

 

Thx. John 

[Commanderfish]

Had a couple of good sessions with the 15 x 70 Helios Apollos now.

Really beautiful wide sweeping views of star fields is what really impresses me about these binos.  Even when Sky conditions are a bit on the poor side (moisture/very thin cloud bringing Sky Glow), these binos manage to deliver a nice, bright, pin sharp star field.   

I mostly use them on a tripod with Manfrotto Geared head and adjustable centre column Red Snapper Tripod.  Easy to carry out in one hand and very stable, with slow motion fine controls.  I view with them in the garden but I also leave them set up in my bedroom next to the slopping Velux windows for quick views just before bed, which is a really nice thing to do even though the targets through the open window are limited.

The viewing conditions haven't been very clear, most "clear" nights have had atmospheric moisture or actually thin high clouds recently.  Nonetheless I've seen Jupiter (white disk, no banding) with all four Gallilean moons clear and sharp, the red disk of Mars (no detail), Auriga Clusters M36 (blur) M37 (faint blur) and M38 Starfish - this one resolves into individual stars.  M13 Glob is visible though of course individual stars can't be resolved.  I even located M81 and M82 galaxies which I was pleased by.  However, the most impressive views were of the star fields and clusters around Cassiopeia and Perseus, including the Double Cluster.  Nowhere near as many stars visible in the double cluster as in big scopes, but on the other hand I don't remember ever seeing the star fields and wide open clusters of Cassiopeia look this nice in a scope, even with a 4.4 degree field at x23 in the ED80.  Similarly, the fields around Cygnus are stunning and make me wonder whether Oiii filters are worth trying (though I gather the consensus is that this is only worth doing in a big scope).

All in all a great instrument and fantastic for grab and go and quick peeks when clouds are moving through.

It may be of interest to people who wear glasses/lenses that I can get the eyepieces to focus when I have no lenses or glasses on, and my prescription is a pretty strong -5.5.