Two Scopes / Two CCDs question

[davedownsouth]

My current set-up for imaging is basically attaching my Atik One 6.0 CCD onto an 80MM F6 Triplet 80/480 Altair Scope which sits on my CEM60 mount.  I am very happy with this set-up and find it very easy to use .  I am now hoping to add another scope / camera to this to speed things up, and wanted to check that what I am planning on doing makes sense.  So, simplest option to me is to add another 80MM F6 Triplet 80/480 Altair Scope and a one shot colour (OSC) Atik 460EX CCD camera.  I will then be able to use the new CCD to take all of the colour shots and the Atik One 6 to take luminance / narrow band shots.  It is my expectation that combining all of these images it PixInsight should be 'relatively' straight forward?  

So, does this make sense and if it does I have a couple of quick questions: -

1. What would be the best way to attach the two scopes to my mount?  One option would be to sit them on top of one another, the other would be to use a dual saddle type of thing?  Which is best, and hopefully balancing will not be too much of a problem as the scopes should be of pretty similar weights.

2.  How easy will it be to run two Atik cameras, three if you include the Akit GP guide camera, off a single laptop computer?  It is a pretty decent computer, but do I risk confusing it too much as it will also be doing the autoguiding via PHD2?

Obvious other question is is there anything else I should be considering 

[ollypenrice]

OSC and mono combined does make sense and I've done that, though not on a single mount in my case. I had a couple of years running OSC and Mono Atik 4000 cameras. To be honest, 2 x mono makes more sense because, in the moon time, you have a dead camera in your OSC. I now run 2x mono and think that more productive. If OSC were really easier or faster then it would be good to run OSC and mono together but I didn't find this to be the case. Part of the problem might be that OSC is RGGB and RGB is better for astronomy - but I won't insist on this point. However, no mono camera users shoot double doses of green...

I'm told you can run two instances of a capture software on one PC but I've also read of folks finding that it was a hassle. As a provider I need reliability so I run two PCs on the dual Tak rig.

There is nothing wrong with the mono-OSC concept but I take the view that mono is the best system and that, in the end, 2x mono beats mono+OSC. Your mileage, as they say, may vary. I have about two years' experience of both but the site may also have a bearing on the story.

Olly

[davedownsouth]

Hi Olly,

thanks alot for your comments, and I have thought about getting another Atik One 6.0, but to be honest, I just like the idea / simplicity of a OSC CCD.  I know it has limitations compared to the mono camera, but I think that this is something I am going to have to find out for myself, as if I don't try it, I will always be thinking I should have tried this myself so I might as well do it now, and accept it might be a relatively expensive mistake  .  Fair point about the RGGB, but I am just going to have to assume that they have this set-up for a reason??  I am a bit worried about the computer being able to run this set-up, as I really do not want to have to used two Laptops.  Is there anyone else out there who runs two Atik CCD cameras off a single laptop, preferably one with an OAG? 

[ollypenrice]

Hi Olly,

thanks alot for your comments, and I have thought about getting another Atik One 6.0, but to be honest, I just like the idea / simplicity of a OSC CCD.  I know it has limitations compared to the mono camera, but I think that this is something I am going to have to find out for myself, as if I don't try it, I will always be thinking I should have tried this myself so I might as well do it now, and accept it might be a relatively expensive mistake  .  Fair point about the RGGB, but I am just going to have to assume that they have this set-up for a reason??  I am a bit worried about the computer being able to run this set-up, as I really do not want to have to used two Laptops.  Is there anyone else out there who runs two Atik CCD cameras off a single laptop, preferably one with an OAG? 

OK, but where does the supposed OSC simplicity come from? If you run an automated electric wheel capture is effectively the same. I don't believe you need separate colour flats (I haven't used them for over two years) nor do I refocus between colours.  I think that shooting sensibly balanced RGB is easier to process than green-slewed RGGB. Truth to tell I suspect that OSC-mono is more complicated than 2 x mono.

Do be warned, though, that I'm prone to holding minority opinions...

lly

[Sp@ce_d]

I've run 3 Atiks on a notebook! I found it less confusing to use 3 differing apps rather than 3 instances of the same. Had less hangs. I ran Artemis capture, nebulosity & maxim. When you select the camera in each the driver offers you a choice listed by the CCDs serial number. So note each one so you know which is which. I'm with Olly, I found multi shooters using all mono easier to process & more productive than mixing in a OSC (DSLR in my case). I found getting & keeping alignment & guiding on multi shooters (3 in my case) fun (not) & patience trying to the point I gave up in the end. [emoji20]

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Scott]

Sorry to veer off a bit, but why, as Olly says (and I've no reason to doubt it) if rgb is the better option for ap, and ccds are dedicated ap cameras, do they not make then rgb? is it cost prohibitive to have sony/kodak make them this way or is it a design impossibility? Just curious really

[ollypenrice]

Sorry to veer off a bit, but why, as Olly says (and I've no reason to doubt it) if rgb is the better option for ap, and ccds are dedicated ap cameras, do they not make then rgb? is it cost prohibitive to have sony/kodak make them this way or is it a design impossibility? Just curious really

Simply because, I think, the chips are made for the majority market of non-astronomical imagers. The camera makers buy what they can. However, new filter patterns are beginning to appear.

Olly

[davedownsouth]

Sorry to veer off a bit, but why, as Olly says (and I've no reason to doubt it) if rgb is the better option for ap, and ccds are dedicated ap cameras, do they not make then rgb? is it cost prohibitive to have sony/kodak make them this way or is it a design impossibility? Just curious really

I guess they have to make a matrix of some sorts which is divisible by four, so at some point some CCD chip maker decided that RGGB was the best option.  NB.  Absolutely no idea if what I have just said is in any way true by the way .

Olly & Sp@ce_d, I thought the OSC option was more simple as when I go out I tend to shot 20 Reds, followed by 20 Greens, followed by 20 Blues, etc.  Usually I run out of clear skies way before I get to the Blues (usually half way through the Reds  ), but if you do 1 Red, 1 Green, 1 Blue, Repeat, I suppose it is very similar.  Now I know this sounds silly, but that just does not seem right to my OCD side .  Not made my mind up on where to go with this one yet, but I suppose getting another Atik One 6.0 does make sense; I already have all of the filters, and one CCD can be fitted with RGB, and the other with the Luminance / Narrow band filters.  I guess it also means that the two scopes will be exactly balanced as well; again, appealing to my OCD side .

[ollypenrice]

I guess they have to make a matrix of some sorts which is divisible by four, so at some point some CCD chip maker decided that RGGB was the best option.  NB.  Absolutely no idea if what I have just said is in any way true by the way .

Olly & Sp@ce_d, I thought the OSC option was more simple as when I go out I tend to shot 20 Reds, followed by 20 Greens, followed by 20 Blues, etc.  Usually I run out of clear skies way before I get to the Blues (usually half way through the Reds  ), but if you do 1 Red, 1 Green, 1 Blue, Repeat, I suppose it is very similar.  Now I know this sounds silly, but that just does not seem right to my OCD side .  Not made my mind up on where to go with this one yet, but I suppose getting another Atik One 6.0 does make sense; I already have all of the filters, and one CCD can be fitted with RGB, and the other with the Luminance / Narrow band filters.  I guess it also means that the two scopes will be exactly balanced as well; again, appealing to my OCD side .

OK, to feed your OCD side   here's a point; why shoot RRRGGGBBB? (Note that they are not in alphabetical order!       )What you should really do is shoot RRRBBBGGG on most targets because the blue (like the lum) should be taken at the highest elevations since these suffer the most from atmospheric dispersion. 

What I generally do on our dual rig, if there is any doubt over the probable behaviour of the sky, is shoot the colour in both cameras but in reverse order, so RBG in one and GBR in the other. This maximises your chances. If the object is high then the order doesn't matter but we aim to start low in the east and end low in the west when appropriate.

I also think that combining a set from each camera into a single final stack gives the best SN ratio. It's a bit more trouble though. Also, on our rig, one camera has a dead column and this can be lost by erasing it when the offending data is placed on top in layers.

Olly

[davedownsouth]

OK, to feed your OCD side   here's a point; why shoot RRRGGGBBB? (Note that they are not in alphabetical order!       )What you should really do is shoot RRRBBBGGG on most targets because the blue (like the lum) should be taken at the highest elevations since these suffer the most from atmospheric dispersion. 

What I generally do on our dual rig, if there is any doubt over the probable behaviour of the sky, is shoot the colour in both cameras but in reverse order, so RBG in one and GBR in the other. This maximises your chances. If the object is high then the order doesn't matter but we aim to start low in the east and end low in the west when appropriate.

I also think that combining a set from each camera into a single final stack gives the best SN ratio. It's a bit more trouble though. Also, on our rig, one camera has a dead column and this can be lost by erasing it when the offending data is placed on top in layers.

Olly

You make you laugh Olly .  In the Uk, I aim to start when it gets dark, the kids are in bed & I can see a bit of clear sky and, if I am really lucky, end when it is my bed time, usually at ~1:30am.  Targets generally have to be pretty much directly overhead, or I have got no chance of seeing them.  On a really good night, I might get three hours imaging time after setting up, hence why I would like to move to a dual rig .

[davedownsouth]

Tonight, perfectly clear skies when I set-up and polar aligned at 8:45.  PHD2 working by 9:15 and dark enough to start taking pictures at 9:30 (still perfectly clear).  Set the CCD taking 2 minute exposures of M51 in red, followed by green, followed by blue and when it got to the fifth set, total cloud cover .  Start in the West, finish in the East; in my dreams .