Response re Light pollution and recent initiatives elsewhere

[beamish]

This is letter rec'd re my letters to Leeds City Council, hoping that they would follow Bucks.County Council's lead re turning off street lights at midnight.

Needless to say I'm not impressed !!

"I am aware that the possibility of switching off street lights at certain times has been considered by some Local Authorities, however, as far as I am aware this suggestion has been largely rejected on the basis of reduced community safety. I believe, the motivation to switch lights off is not related to energy conservation but directly in response to the spiralling cost of energy. I have attached a recent article from the Daily Mail which may add further clarity.

As you may be aware the City Council, under a Private Finance Initiative (PFI), is currently working with our Partner, Southern Electric Contracting to ensure the replacement of approximately 80,000 old street lights throughout Leeds. The main purpose of the street lighting is to enable pedestrians and cyclists to orientate themselves, to detect vehicular and other hazards and to discourage crime against people and property.

Whilst developing the project requirement, decision's were taken to introduce a number of measures aimed at ensuring Leeds has an energy efficient lighting solution, taking full advantage modern technology.

The new lighting being installed incorporates the following energy efficient measures:

1. The use of fully electronic control gear, control gear which is considerably more efficient that the magnetic gear previously used. For example and old 35w Sox lantern consumed 48watts of energy. The new 45watt lanterns consume 48watts of energy.

2. The photocell which switch the lights on and off have been specified to switch the lights on approximately 4 mins later and off 4 mins earlier each day, a shift not noticeable to most people but given the quantity of street lights in Leeds, a significant reduction in energy.

3. The lanterns and lamps being installed are of the highest quality, the result of which will be that we can relight Leeds with approximately 8,000 to 10,000 less lights than at present.

4. The energy purchased through the YPO consortium is 100% Good Quality Combined Heat & Power (GQCHP), whilst not being produced through entirely renewable sources i.e. wind, hydro etc. It is produced as a result of other activities and not directly through the use of fossil fuels. This energy source is recognised as being renewable.

5. In the future, the City Council intends, through innovation to take the opportunity to further reduce our energy consumption. Such steps will include the potential to dim lights (as opposed to switching them off completely) on traffic routes between certain times. This is possible because lighting levels on traffic routes are determined by traffic volumes, clearly between, for instance 1am and 5am, the traffic flow is reduced so it should be possible to provide lower lighting levels.

It is anticipated that the combination of the measures listed above will reduce the street lighting Carbon footprint for Leeds by approximately 200 tonnes by 2011. Presently, street lighting is responsible for 6% of the Councils CO2 emission's."

I trust that the above explains our current position on this issue and satisfies your enquiry.

Andrew Molyneux

Acting Highway Network Manager

Highway Services

Leeds City Council

Karlo

[Wedge]

Bucks County Council is turning off the lights :shock:

I live in Bucks!

I have not heard of this, could you possibly find me a link to where you read it?

I feel for you though - that was a pretty poor response!

[beamish]

I'm pretty sure it was Bucks in the news about a wk ago?

[Wedge]

Yep, I just googled it.

I am delighted!

Look here:

http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/news/article-23436692-details/Return+of+the+blackout:+Crime+fear+as+councils+switch+off+streetlights+to+save+the+planet/article.do

Look at the difference in stars in these two pictures - and they didn't even mean to illustrate that!

Brilliant! Just Brilliant

Obviously Bukinghamshire is a big place, so I am not too sure if it will effect me too much (Would be great if Wycombe was turned off, as that is my main source of LP) but I think if it proves successful, that would be a great example to other councils.

Dont complain about lack of lights on the roads - use cats eyes!

[beamish]

I think that's the paranoid, suburban house wife I referred to in my e-mail to the BBC news 24, kept spouting on about the rise in crime. No evidence just her fears, being interviewed and repeated regularly throughout the day. I just couldn't stand it any more and complained as to why they were only interviewing her and not someone from the council or a supporter of the idea. Just fuelling the fear in my book. Loads of research carried out here and the US and Australia,conclusion - No evidence to support the idea that a reduction in lighting leads to an increase in the incidence of crime. As for drivers, well lots of support for the fact that take away the lights and drivers find themselves becoming more pro-active in awareness and safer driving.

Rant over.

[Tiny]

Unfortunately our county council in Shropshire decided to keep the lights on for at least another year. At that point they will decide - basing their decision on how switching off lights has been taken in other areas. (This being a council that will happily close schools to save money but (obviously) not switch off the lights to do the same.)

Meanwhile our police (who want a new helicopter due to H&S) and a new fleet of cars to sit in) are already bleating that no lights means more crime and they are even encouraging householders to fit security lights in their Let's fight crime together printed blurb. This, unfortunately, influences locals who now all want more lights in their villages - even though the crime rate is near zero. Looking at some of our neighbours we wonder if they never grew out of being afraid of the dark as they flood light their properties even when they are home and indoors.

All in all it is very frustrating. Maybe we should invent a new religion of star worship and demand our rights as a minority group to practise our religion siting these heretical lights as being a curse that should be extinguished for some of the night to let us practise. You might think this a joke but there have been much crazier religious groups that authorities do take seriously.

Certainly in the current situation we could be said to be crying in the wilderness.

[Sam]

All in all it is very frustrating. Maybe we should invent a new religion of star worship and demand our rights as a minority group to practise our religion siting these heretical lights as being a curse that should be extinguished for some of the night to let us practise. You might think this a joke but there have been much crazier religious groups that authorities do take seriously.

Great idea! At the next census I'm not going to put Jedi but Galaxy Worshipper (need really dark skies for that)! I think the councils are impinging on my religious rights to observe pay homage to galaxies.

[Wedge]

:laughing3: :laughing3: :laughing3:

It may actually work!

[James]

The trouble is, if we approach light pollution from an economic point of view or 'global warming' viewpoint then the problem won't go away as technological advances will just provide us with ever more efficient lights that use less power but won't reduce the light output.

If we go down the dark skies for astronomy route we'll be ignored as being part of a 'fringe group' (not my words) and we'll have to surmount the rather obvious issue of it rarely being clear so people will question spending money on reducing/changing lighting to return dark skies when its not clear or they just won't care.

I really think the only way we can make a difference is by starting young and getting into schools. (I know I'm not the only one who thinks this ). There's nothing more powerful (and annoying) than a self righteous child/teenager insisting that us adults get our act together. The problem there is that it would require a massive effort and people willing to go into schools with astro kit (or willing to take the kids to a dark spot). To do this would involve getting teachers onside (especially science teachers) and headmasters and even parents. It would also involve supplying an awful lot of kit. But, the biggest problem of all would keep keeping this level of engagement up. Whilst its better than nothing to make a one off effort I think its only by doing something annually or more often that you can start to engage young peoples minds into astronomy and into thinking a little different about light pollution.

I guess, conceivably, if local astronomy societies were to try and forge links with schools this could start to happen but it would require a committment on the part of those societies. To be honest though I hear of very little action beyond a few moans from astro societies about light pollution (please prove me wrong here!) with the exception of a few lone voices in the wilderness. There's also the issue that many of us don't really have much spare time..

Kate, my wife, wants to become a teacher (very brave in my opinion). Its a long long way off but I could imagine a situation where I would be happy to go into schools armed with a small scope or two and try to encourage a little interest in astronomy and light pollution or even better bringing some out to an observatory with their teacher to have a look see.

Next year is the International Year of Astronomy, what better time to try and kick something off - and lets pray for a stunning comet or bright supernova to get the publics imagination.

James

[Tiny]

- and lets pray for a stunning comet or bright supernova to get the publics imagination.

James

--- But let them be not TOO close please or light pollution might be the least of our worries. (Another case where ignorance is bliss and soaps are more important than knowing the big picture.)

[James]

Good point - perhaps not too bright a supernova...

[storebror]

Well, I've just read the article on Bucks CC shutting off the lights and also the uproar that it's caused in the comments section - the usual 'this is the end of the world' tripe. I thought I'd have my two penny worth so here is the comment I posted in response:

"I think it's a brilliant idea. All of these knee jerk reactions that it will cause an increase in crime are totally illogical. As for people feeling unsafe being out when the lights are out - I would have assumed that at this time most normal people would be indoors tucked away in bed. Not only is this a tremendous saving of energy, but I'm sure that amateur astronomers, like myself, will more than welcome a move that will cut the light pollution that has for so long blighted the environment and ruined our dark skies. Stop moaning and if you feel SO unsafe then barricade yourselves in with steel shutters."

[Tiny]

We have now successfully got a bit about any house outside lights being low wattage and downward facing while only illuminating inside the property boundaries included in the Village Design Statement for our township. This VDS is endorsed by the local council but...

This document is a political exercise and is not binding on anyone - especially the council planners and those wanting to install lights outside for a huge variety of reasons that are allowed by our government.

And we get no say in the street lights the builders of new roads put in - which being approved by our council will be anything the builders fancy that looks OK and is cheap. We notice a far hill has acquired a new group of houses 'in the country' which have such glarey street lights so one previous dark bit now pollutes over there.

[nitram100]

I laughed at the peoples reactions to Bucks council turning off street lights, "it will increase crime!" etc, one guy even said on the daily mail site said "rape cases will soar!" what an idiot!

Do these people not realise that the darker a street is, the more difficult it would be for the criminal to do 'his job'? Or do criminals have some super mutant nightvision eyeballs that i don't know about? If it's pitch black, they'll have to use a torch, which will make them stick out like a sore thumb.

[timetraveller]

there is one other route which could be explored which is instead of contacting the council, contacting the local Mp's instead. Pointing out that under the current ongoing rises in electric prices, the councillors are failling in their duties as elected officials in using public funds correctly, by not reducing the amount of electricity being used and as a sensible and responsible citizen you would feel it your absolute duty to take this into consideration whilst considering your choice for future elected representative which could mean a change in their current employment status in the near future i guarantee that will make them sit up and take note especially if they only just scrapped in last time regards Pete

[SteveA]

I totally agree with the comments that turning the lights off would not necessarily lead to an increase in “crime”. Certainly when it comes to anti social behaviour, which in many peoples eyes these days is one of the most obvious and frequently sited street “crimes”, in my opinion I would have said that street lighting seems to encourage this rather than prevent it !

Where I live we regularly get groups of youths gathering after dark and the favourite spots are always the well lit areas under street lights etc.

With respect t road safety, I seem to remember seeing an article (sorry I can’t remember where, but I’m sure it related to Buckinghamshire) that suggested turning the street lights off actually reduced night time accidents at some particularly notorious junctions. The lack of lighting at these junctions made drivers concentrate and take more care!

I applaud any local authority that is at least prepared to trial this sort of initiative…well done Buckinghamshire

[Reggie]

I suspect with the lack of lighting at notorious spots it actually allowed the drivers to concentrate and be aware of which direction cars came from because of..... their headlights, you know those things that help them to see where they're going in the dark

I live in an area where there are a lot of villages with minimal or no street lighting at all, there is no big increase of crime in these areas, nor are there a disproportionate number of accidents.

Sometimes though I think we can be LP crazy and are actually asking for too much too quickly, we'd all like a switch off, that would brilliant but maybe going for a reduction in numbers rather than a complete switch off. I reckon we'll see how many people leave their lights on when the energy costs really start to bite people in the wallet come this winter.

[AlphaTau]

I reckon we'll see how many people leave their lights on when the energy costs really start to bite people in the wallet come this winter.

Funny you should say that Reggie. I have had one neighbour in a block of flats near me who ALWAYS left a light on that wasn't blocked by curtains to reduce the glare. I reckon it is a 100W bulb and it is high enough, and close enough to hit me in the eyes everytime I turn around. Since these increases in prices for electricity it has been OFF

Maybe the message is getting through.

I also remember that many years ago when I was a kid the local council used to switch off the street lights here in Harlow at midnight. My brother had a small telescope at the time and I did go out and have a look from time to time.

I seem to remember that he (my brother), always looked forward to midnight. I was surprised one night, when I was allowed to stay up, just what an effect the switching off of these lights had on the night sky. The obvious constellations almost disappeared in the now multitude of visible stars. The one thing I remember from that night was the Milkyway. It just glowed! It was one of the most magnificent sights I have ever seen.

I think it was this experience that has now kick started my interest in doing Astronomy for myself.

Just to say that although times have changed since then (1970's), I don't remember crime being as bad then.

So a question. What has changed?

THERE HAS BEEN AN INCREASE IN LIGHTING AT NIGHT.

Has more lighting reduced crime?

In my opinion NO it hasn't.

OK it's obviously not so simple because there are many other social factors affecting crime rates, but these factors are nothing to do with lighting. However some of these issues such as poverty, lack of respect etc are so far removed from street lighting, they should be addressed as a separate issues. Also, poverty and lack of respect etc can be linked together as similar issues. I fail to see any link associated with these and street lighting. And if anyone suggests that a lack of street lighting would provide the opportunity for those people to act on their anti social behaviour, then I would point out, as others have that if you can't see your hand in front of your face then neither can the criminal.

In fact, in the Medieval period William Wallace (at least I think it was, a more knowledgeable person can correct me), lost a battle when he sent his troops to attack the English through trees and across fields at night with no moon, and no street lights The attempt failed badly and probably cost Wallace Scotland! This is not meant to be a political statement, just an example of how difficult it would be for anyone to operate at night with any criminal intent and no light to guide them.

Anyway that's my 2'penneth worth.

Andrew

[SteveA]

I just googled the subject and found an interesting thread on how to turn off street lights with a laser pen !

http://rickyspears.com/blog/?p=128

OK.. It's illegal but I have to admit I'm tempted!

[Andrew*]

I have just removed a post from this thread with a strong political leaning.

I request, although tricky in such a topic, that members avoid political content in accordance with the forum rules.

Andrew

[PhillyDee]

I have to laugh. . .

1. The use of fully electronic control gear, control gear which is considerably more efficient that the magnetic gear previously used. For example and old 35w Sox lantern consumed 48watts of energy. The new 45watt lanterns consume 48watts of energy.

So they have replaced a lamp that consumes 48W with a lamp that consumes . . 48W. Hmm . . .

2. The photocell which switch the lights on and off have been specified to switch the lights on approximately 4 mins later and off 4 mins earlier each day, a shift not noticeable to most people but given the quantity of street lights in Leeds, a significant reduction in energy.

- If its a photocell then it will respond to the light levels anyway. Whats a timer got to do with it?

3. The lanterns and lamps being installed are of the highest quality, the result of which will be that we can relight Leeds with approximately 8,000 to 10,000 less lights than at present.

- But everywhere where I live the concentration of lamps installed is actually higher since they emit less light (At least in the North East)

4. The energy purchased through the YPO consortium is 100% Good Quality Combined Heat & Power (GQCHP), whilst not being produced through entirely renewable sources i.e. wind, hydro etc. It is produced as a result of other activities and not directly through the use of fossil fuels. This energy source is recognised as being renewable.

- Not produced through renewables . . but is recognised as being renewable? Eh????

5. In the future, the City Council intends, through innovation to take the opportunity to further reduce our energy consumption. Such steps will include the potential to dim lights (as opposed to switching them off completely) on traffic routes between certain times. This is possible because lighting levels on traffic routes are determined by traffic volumes, clearly between, for instance 1am and 5am, the traffic flow is reduced so it should be possible to provide lower lighting levels.

- Why not implemet it now, or just switch off every other lamp?

[Nostromo]

Guys some people seem to have a talent for turning off street lights - and some don't

check this out

I have a traffic circle nearby but thankfully no street lights near my observaotry dome - so far anyway. One reason is that our power is through overhead poles. I'm in a wrangle with the electricity co to put iin underground cables (I want to build and have a pole pn my property) and I wonder if this would make it easier for them to put up street lights?

Nick

[Nostromo]

Guys just a thought but why don't we start a "excessive streetlight gallery"?

for example I have a traffic circle nearby on a country road which has 6 towering streetlights around it.

At night you don't get many cars there anyway.

What a waste! They cost a fortune to run and set up. One light would have been fine at that traffic circle. Nick

[Reggie]

Ok, I'll see if I can stitch some images together, how does about 240 street lights in my FOV from my observing spot grab you? On a stretch of road that possibly sees a dozen cars all night after midnight.

[Nostromo]

wow that sounds awful I wonder what the combined power consumption of the lights is? we could probably work out the yearly cost in Kilowatt hours and post that up too, Nick