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Not seeing what I am supposed to be seeing?


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Hi again!

I have a Skywatcher ED100 refractor on an EQ5 mount, I have some very old plossol 4mm, 9mm, 18mm & 20mm eyepieces which were given to me by a late friend probably late 70's eye pieces. I have a couple of wide field eye pieces which are probably the best I have but offer very little in magnification. I also have a 2x barlow.

I have learned how to polar align and I am viewing the sky with ease utilising the catalogue within the synscan. My problem is that I do not seem to see what I am told that I should be seeing. As an example I read a review for an Altair Astro 115 ED refractor which I understand is a far far better quality than my scope, however the guy used a CCD camera attached (of very good quality) set on 10 minute exposures for 4 hours, taking pictures of the horses head nebula. The pictures were absolutely stunning in colour and with great detail.

Granted without a camera or any up to date eye pieces I am not seeing anything like what the sales brochures and reviews are telling me I should be seeing. I also understand that there are allot of factors governing what we see and how we see it, however could somebody put me on the right line here. Is this because I need to update my eyepieces? Buy a better scope? Buy a camera and guide scope and review the sky through a computer? I believe that I am setting the scope up correctly as I am navigating through the sky quite well and getting nebulas in centre of view, however they are just a puff of grey dust rather than producing any detail. Also planetary viewing is very limited. I can tell which planet I am looking at however all planets are far too small to view any detail. In the review mentioned above he discusses the detail in viewing the dark storm belt on Saturn! I cannot get anything like that kind of magnification to view such detail.

Could somebody please tell me where I am going wrong and what I should do........or indeed buy?

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Hello...

It doesn't actually sound as if you are doing anything wrong at all!

You are not the first person to have setup a telescope for the first time and expected to see the sort of images found either on this site or in magazines etc....

Firstly...you will never be able to perceive much in the way of colour through an eyepiece, certainy when it comes to deep sky objetcs! You may get a hint of colour when observing planets, but unfortunately the human eye (even assisted by a telescope) is not sensitive at these light levels to perceive colours.

Secondly, unless you are luck enough to own a BIG telescope, then the views of DSO's with a few exeptions are always going to appear as whispy smudges!

If you want to get a good idea of what you will ACTUALY see through a small telescope, I would advise getting hold of a very good book called "Turn left at Orion". This is an excelent publication, much recomended to those new to the hobby...as it is a realistic guide to what you can expect to see...

Hope that helps ...a bit

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The eye cannot see what the camera sees, the eye is not sensitive enough to pick up colour, so nebulae and globular clusters will always be grey splodges, better ep's and a larger aperture will always bring out more detail. The planets are always very small in any telescope or eyepiece. The best thing is that you need to lower your expectations, you'll never see Hubble images. Get more experince and learn to see what you are looking at, it takes time and patience. Good luck with your explorations.

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Starting with the planets. They are indeed small on a scope.

Here's a check list to improbe views:

- Leave the scope out for at least 30 min so it will reach outside temperature. The slightest expansion/contraction on the scope due to temperature shift degrades the image at high magnifications.

- Let your eyes adapt to the dark.

- Cover your left eye with a cloth or an eye patch so your right eye won't be squinting,

- Observe for a few minutes with each EPs. Let your eyes adapt and scan the planet surface for the small details, sketch them if you want. That will help you notice things better.

I would alternate between your 9mm and 4mm EPs. Planets are small but can be detailed when the conditions are right. You need to get practice to notice those elusive details.

One thing you can't control is the seeing conditions, if you look naked eye at stars and they seam to twinkle then its a bad nice to use high magnifications, you can still do it but expect views not to be very sharp/detailed.

Regarding DSOs, you're scope will allow you to see some of the brightest. Start with M13, M5, M3, M27, M57 (look for a small out of focus star, when all others are in focus, then use the 9mm or 4mm). Don't expect color on DSOs, you won't see any, only the cameras can pick it up, most of the reds are near the infra red wavelenghts and our eyes are incapable of observing it.

The horse head nebula is a very faint object. Most people can only detect it with an 16" (400mm) scope. I have tried several times with an 8" (200mm) under very dark skies and could not see a thing.

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It sounds like a great deal of the problem is around your expectations, though possibly the eyepieces are letting you down a bit as well. A telescope is only as good as its weakest component, be that the optics, mount or eyepieces. Lens transmission coatings as well as eyepiece design has come a long way since the 1970’s and coatings while robust do lose some of their effectiveness over time.

Certainly with regards deep sky objects, I am afraid the vast majority will be no more than the grey smudges you mention. They are just not bright enough to activate the colour receptive cones in our eyes. With practice you will find that you are able to pull out much more detail using techniques like averted vision, but they will never look like the glorious technicolor images you see in magazines and on this site.

As far as planetary observing goes, this is the one area where our eyes are capable of rivalling the images people have taken. But it is deeply reliant on the quality of the atmospheric seeing as turbulence in the atmosphere can easily wash out the finer details. I would hazard a guess that part of your problem is that all the planets that will show good detail (Saturn and Jupiter for example) are not well placed for observing. Saturn is already near the murky horizon (you are looking through more atmosphere when you view towards the horizon) and Jupiter is rising only around midnight so unless you stay up till close to sunrise, it is still rather close to the horizon as well.

However, I should add, that planetary observing is a patience game. It will be the moments when suddenly the slice of atmosphere you are looking through becomes very tranquil and a lot more detail will temporarily be visible.

Your telescope has a focal length of 900mm and you mention that you had an EP with a focal length of 4mm. That means you are magnifying the image 225x. As a rule of thumb a good telescope can handle 50x of magnification per inch of aperture, so you are around the limit of your scope, though more often than not, the atmosphere will be the limiting factor (There is a good reason why Hubble was put in space!). Spotting finer detail will also come with practice and patience for those still moments.

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Well I don't feel quite so inadequate now, thank you for your comments it is much appreciated. Could anyone recommend a set of eyepieces that would be ideal and won't break the bank? I have a 25mm wide field that came with the scope which is probably the clearest. However I think I need to update the others to really get the most of what I have.

'Turn left at Orion' is now on my list thanks.

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images in books etc are very rarely what you will see in the scope.Sometimes imaging for hours in one area and a lot of post production goes into getting the results you mention.What you are seeing sounds about right.Most of the galaxies and nebulas etc will be nothing more than a "smudge" of light in all but the largest diameter scopes with perfect seeing conditions and an inky black sky.With those conditions you may resolve the "smudge" into a structure with points of light and shape.Us with low power scopes , irrespective of magnification, will only see smudges most of the time.Upon finding the object other factors such as your own eyes being dark adapted and how long you actually study it will have an effect on what you see..Also allowing your scope to cool down before viewing will aid viewing.You may also find as you change eyepieces to "zoom" in that the object becomes harder to view..again down to looking through turbulance ,light pollution etc.I find that brightness also decreases the higher power eyepiece I use.Another factor ,especially affecting planetary views is the position in the sky and time of viewing.The lower the object is in the sky the more "Rubbish" your looking through..ie..light pollution,atmospherics etc.I only have a 130mm ref on an eq mount and quickly learnt what I could and couldnt see.Unfortunately many of the small GOTO scopes have 1000s of targets on the system with only a small percentage actually being visible with the scopes diameter.This is because we actually pay for the electronics and not the optics.Another way to think of these "smudges" is that while they are not as seen in the books ,you are looking back in time at an object giving of its light many thousands of years ago,now THAT is amazing.Talking planets ,now at this time the moon is very good to view (use a moon filter if its very bright) and jupiter is still gorgeous .The fact is that through my scope the largest I can see Jupiter clearly is about the size of my little finger nail..(130mm scope -2xbarlow -10 mm ep).Atmospherics do cause it to appear in and out of focus but as with "smudges" your eye will gradually begin to pick out banding to longer you view.The other planets are either too far away at this time or in our part of the sky in daylight so even with a large scope they would be difficult to see.Venus is seen rising after Jupiter and looks like a huge twinkling star(as Jupiter does) and upon magnification you will see a glowing ,flaring,disc showing only its phase(crescent..full..etc).I am by no means an expert and havent been doing this for a long time but these are my experiences with viewing with a small(by comparison)scope.To get more detail in planetary and deep space objects I would have had to spend nearly triple what I paid for my gear,,and astrophotography can be very expensive if you have to buy a dslr.( i use a £4 xbox web cam for lunar pics).You ,in my opinion, are not doing anything wrong,its just your expectations are probably higher than the scopes capabilities.Buying different eyepieces wont give you the results you require as we are limited by the scopes optical tube as to the usable power of the eyepieces and barlows.I only have a 25mm eyepiece for searching and then if the atmospherics allows add a barlow or 10mm to "zoom " in .On zooming in , if the object wont focus then obviously factors arent correct for really close viewing so I switch back.If factors are correct,i.e. good "seeing" no light pollution etc and I use my maximum magnification then because of the size of my scope there is nothing else I can do.You seem to have a nice collection from wide to zoom,but if you arent happy with what you can see then the only other alternative is a bigger scope> the wider circumference will allow more light to get in so you would(should) see more detail in objects but not to the level that the magazines and manufacturers show.

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BST explorer EPs seam to have the best reviews among the most affordable EPs. Orthoscopic design EPs are great for planets their sharpness rivals with much more expensive ones, the draw back is that they are not very comfortable to use, even impossible if you use glasses as you need to get your eye just a few mm away from the eye lens to observe.

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Admittidly when viewing, you can get dis-couraged because that beautiful spiral galaxy teaming with stars is that little smudge in your eyepeice. But think about what your seeing. Someone on here recently said when the light left the Andromeda Galaxy (M31) that your seeing when you looked through your scope, humans as we know it werent even about.

Planets are small through the EP, but smaller and clearer is better than bigger and blury. Think Saturn is 762 million miles away. I think its amazing you can even see it at all from our back gardens.

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The other posters have posted some excellent advice. I'd just add that the ED100 is an excellent scope, possibly one of the best there is in the 100mm aperture so, unless you wish to buy a larger scope, there is no need to feel it is in any way inadequate.

Replacement eyepieces may help a bit but won't lead to a major difference in the views. Getting used to what can be seen visually though a scope and getting experience in the way your scope works and what it will show is what is needed, I feel.

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All of the posts above are excellent and very helpful. I am going to buy a couple of new eye pieces to bring the system up to date, it won't hurt and I can always continue with them should I decide to upgrade in the future. I was of the impression that size does matter (aperture), more light ......more clarity, however with my lack of experience and gradual gaining interest the ED100/EQ5 is a great tool to begin with. Patience and lower expectations.......wise words and probably the two things I have to work at the most.....in life!. Thank you.

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When I first started out I had similar thoughts especially with DSO's as I spent hours and hours trying to find them :sad: . After time (maybe even months) I eventually realised it was all down to the "seeing" I.e. as already mentioned the atmospheric conditions are critical; eventually I had a clear night with good "seeing" conditions and the DSO's I viewed were much clearer than before; this made it all worth while :smiley:.

Andy

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The horsehead is a particularly faint object and you need fairly large aperture scopes to stand any chance of just seeing it at all. Even so it will still be a black/white/grey smudge as mentioned above . You'll see colour on planets cos they are bright and close. You'll see some colour on double stars like Albireo (beautiful contrasting gold and blue) but other than that dso's dont display colour visually.

The 115 EDT is a triplet whereas your 100ED is a doublet - so there's little comparison really as they are considerably different types of refractor. But that said, you can get pictures of the horsehead in colour with both scopes. There will be subtle differences though - and don't forget the reviewer is an expert imager with a superb ccd astro imaging camera. You may be interested to get his impressions of the 100ED - just pm Olly Penrice.

The storm belt on saturn in the review was observed using a Televue Nagler if I recall correctly. The views with this type of top quality eyepiece will be totally different to that produced by the standard supplied eyepieces that came with your scope. However you can achieve a very good improvement to your views with quite moderate eyepieces in the £40-£50 range.

From your post I don't think you're doing as badly as you think - in fact I reckon you're doing realy well picking out loads of different objects - half of this game is finding the darned things lol. You may be at the stage where you are ready to delve into the dark art of astro imaging. If you do - make sure you have deep pockets. :)

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BST explorer EPs seam to have the best reviews among the most affordable EPs. Orthoscopic design EPs are great for planets their sharpness rivals with much more expensive ones, the draw back is that they are not very comfortable to use, even impossible if you use glasses as you need to get your eye just a few mm away from the eye lens to observe.

Yes i own the 18mm and a 8mm BST explorer eyepieces, i can say they are both very good and i am very happy with them,

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1-25-18mm-BST-Explorer-Dual-ED-eyepiece-Branded-Starguider-/160808615524?pt=UK_Telescope_Eyepieces&hash=item2570f0be64

Speak to Alan at Skies the limit he wil get you sorted.

+1 for skies the liit

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Absolutely right Brantuk you have read the same article I read, he did use a Televue Nagler and a £4000 CCD to achieve the images. This is not in my league I am afraid however the Altair Refractor is a beautiful thing. I have some renewed confidence born out of the encouraging comments in this thread, also the fact that I am not getting things altogether wrong. It sounds like a couple of ep's will give me a feel of what I can achieve with my scope. I have just been out and had a look and viewed both the Dumbbell and the Andromeda, both viewed best through my two wide field ep's. The other ep's I mentioned were too dark and I was unable to get any kind of reference with any stars close by. Perhaps it wasn't the best night (seeing) however I have enjoyed it and I am beginning to understand what is to be expected. I have a lots of things to discuss but work in the morning! Thank you all for your comments they are very helpful and fill me with renewed confidence. Best of luck.

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Just a side note: with ortho EPs you get the same (or better) sharpness and contrast as a Nagler. My Ethos 10mm (ethos are a step above naglers) shows me the same details as my Baader Genuine Ortho 9mm, in fact the Great Red Spot often looks more pronounced on the ortho. Of course the Ethos is much more comfortable to use and much better for DSOs.

I bought most of the orthos 2nd hand for 50 each, so you can get the best planetary views on a budget, as long as you compromise on comfort.

For DSOs a wide field EP is best, thought M57, small planetary nebulas and double stars look good on orthos too.

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All of the posts above are excellent and very helpful. I am going to buy a couple of new eye pieces to bring the system up to date, it won't hurt and I can always continue with them should I decide to upgrade in the future. I was of the impression that size does matter (aperture), more light ......more clarity, however with my lack of experience and gradual gaining interest the ED100/EQ5 is a great tool to begin with. Patience and lower expectations.......wise words and probably the two things I have to work at the most.....in life!. Thank you.

You are right about bigger apperture = more light and more clarity. Just to get those hubble type images you'd need a hubble type telescope :)

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Wish I had come across wise words like these when I was starting out. I was also co fused by what I was seeing. Now my observing technique has inproved and I see more detail. Plus I appreciate just how amazing it is to see something so distant.

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When I started out I had high expectations too. I knew I wouldn't see objects like in magazines but I at least thought I'd see much more colour than you actually do. I'm glad I thought that though because that gave me the drive to buy a scope in the first place. Once I started reading into what I was actually looking at and how far the photons had traveled through space to my eyes the expectation changed to an amazement.

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The 100ED is a fantastic 4" frac and well worth keeping and resisting aperture fever. It's great on the moon, planets, double stars, open and globular clusters, and for it's size pretty damned good on the top DSOs too.

As already mentioned, galaxies and nebula are grey smudges with occassional tints of green, however the more time spent at the eyepiece on these will reveal more subtle detail and that's part of the fun of visual observing.

You've already had a look at the Dumbell and Andromeda (both splendid large objects), have a go at some more of the seasonal top ticket objects to whet the appetite :smiley:

Albireo, best double star and your 100ED will show in glorious colours

Ring nebula, as this reveals plenty of detail for a DSO

M13 glob cluster in Hercules and you should be able to resolve many of the stars

Peliades which will demonstrate the excellent wide field view of your frac

Cruise along the moon's terminator, for the 100ED's crisp views and lack of false colour

Keep returning to Jupiter over the coming weeks, it's moons and 2 main cloud bands will be easily seen in the frac. When the seeing is just right, you'll spot the Great Red Spot and other 'barges' too.

If there are any local SGL or astro-club observing groups, it's worth popping along as you can identify and compare objects with others, including having a friendly nose through a variety of other scopes.

Can you tell I used to own a 100ED? :grin: it was that good that when the time came I only upgraded to it's bigger brother!

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I must admit I didn't expect such a reaction following this post but the comments have been fantastic what a great site! Yes you are right "aperture fever" can strike at any time! I have contemplated a cassegrain because of the light mobility and the erm.... aperture! Assuming that a wand will be wiggled and I will instantly have a 50" flat screen in HD with 3D graphics if I should want to view it!...........I joke of course, however that's how it gets you. You are right the 100ED is fine and I should stick with it and stop looking over the hedge and thinking that the grass is much greener........! Thanks to this post I am now aware of the limitations and the experience one should gain before leaping on the aperture boat!. Having said all of this cassegrains & reflectors are great but there is something about refractors which is very appealing? Thank you Woking for the Top Tickets I will write a list and look for them on my next session.

I have an old Luton Instruments 10" reflector that was passed to me some time ago (see my previous posts for piccies) which I have not got round to doing anything with (requires refurbishment on the mount & probably scope). Therefore I was left with the dilemma of new 8" cassegrain onto my mount (EQ5) OR new mount for the reflector (EQ6) OR refurbish the LI mount and get that going! All would cost about the same, however one would take some work and the other two would be plug and play. Its a good dilemma but one I think I will shelve until I have a bit more experience.

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well i have a 10" skywatcher dobsonian i brought as my first scope back in march, but even with the relativly large appurture that i have i basically get the views you describe, but when your looking at a galaxy that 60 odd million light years away i was never expecting to make out the individual stars, but i must admit i was a bit disapointed in not seeing any colour, although i can make out a red tint in m42, looking forward to that making another apperence it was my first dso (nice easy one to find too)

ps cann`t seem to turn this blumming underscore off, sorrry.

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That's interesting, I AGAIN presumed that the views through a 10" be it a Dob or Reflec would be off the scale compared to my refractor. Although I am taking on board what has been said throughout this post. One of the posts above mentioned joining a local astro group to get a view through other scopes, and I agree this would provide some of the answers I am looking for. Thanks again.

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I've sorted that out for you :smiley:

thanks john

and wes, i couldn`t say what the views are like through any scope apart from my 10" as it`s the only scope i`ve ever used, so i`m quite glad i got a large one to start with (only cost me about 300 quid used with loads of extras), it`s fairly light polluted where i am so need to get it out too a dark site, but if you read through more posts you`ll see that dso`s are usually refered to as grey fuzzies, doesn`t really matter how big your scope is (unless your talking really big observatory type scopes) but with a larger scope you can get greater magnification and the grey fuzzies will be brighter so you can find dimmer ones.

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