Use of Lasers

[Seafury]

Hi I have not used lasers for aligning anything but I wondered if they were safe in terms of aircraft, we all hear of lasers being deliberately shone at aircraft which is highly dangerous, I have one or two friends who fly professionally and have suffered in this way, it is possible that an innocent astronomer could accidentally catch an aircraft especially in areas where we have a lot of low flying jet and helicopter activity such as we have here in Cornwall.

gordon

[Capricorn]

Like just about everything: The laser is safe, it is the person that is holding it that is in question.

If you go pointing it at anything that is NOT the lasers fault, it did not take over your mind and make you do it.

As to blinding an aircraft pilot, have you ever considered the situation?

You couldn't hold the other end of a laser steady on a brick at 100 yards, holding it on a plane at 20,00 feet when the plane is moving is not going to happen. Also there is the minor factor of the cockpit of the plane being on top and you are well underneath. Last I knew planes were not made of trasparent material.

So if you are intending to go out, point it at something that is both low down and close then do not blame the laser, it would be completely and totally your fault and your decision.

[pete_l]

Personally, I understood the question to mean "Are lasers safe [ to use ]", rather than the absolute literal sense.

If you live in a place that has a lot of "aircraft pollution" ; ) then obviously it's something to be aware of. How many times have you had something fly through your FoV? I live under the Heathrow flightpath - though there aren't too many planes flying at night, it has happened on rare occasions (I know this from the spoiled images).

However, the amount of time I would have the laser on is very small in proportion to the time spent viewing. Also, the laser would be pointing at a (mostly) fixed position in the sky, so a plane would fly through the beam in a tiny fraction of a second (a cockpit's width at 200MPH; say 2 metres@100m/s) as the beam would not be tracking the aircraft.

I'd reckon that your major concern would be the small (but non-zero) possibility of accidentally trying to align with the laser and a hovering helo getting in the way. I think you'd see its lights and so long as you're careful and check first - just like looking before crossing the road - you shouldn't cause any concerns.

[DirkSteele]

I have a laser pointer, but unfortunately given all the negative press they received due to use by less sensible individuals, I never use it any more. Perhaps if I were doing some astronomy outreach I would consider it as they are an invaluable teaching aid.

If you do decide to use it, you must be incredibly diligent of what is above you (not just the stars!) and the moment you know an aircraft is in the vicinity you must switch it off until it has past. And that applies not just to low flying aircraft, but higher altitude craft as well. The human eye is far more sensitive to green light than other parts of the visual spectrum and inadvertently shinning at a plane could temporarily blind the pilot.

[Zakalwe]

A note of realism.

I doubt that the output of a 1mw laser would be even visible at 30,000 feet. Most of the bad press comes from idiots shining lasers at pilots that are at low level (coming in to land or taking off, which is the most sensitive part of flying and one where the pilots need their eyes), or pointing them at police helicopters.

I use a 1mw green laser and have it permanently mounted on my scope. I find it invaluable for aligning, or when I am slewing by hand. As with all things, use common sense and you'll be fine. Unless you are on a busy flightpath, or near an airport, then you should be fine. Even if some busy-body (as in a nosey neighbour) did report you to the Dibble then one look at what you are doing should satisfy that your intentions and actions were not malicious.

[Seafury]

Hi Guys thanks for the replies, I don't have any intention or need to use one myself, what brought it to mind was that recently the aircraft bring the Olympic torch into Culdrose suffered a laser hit into the cockpit on its final approach, whether malicious or someone getting carried away with their scope I have no idea, it was just a question because of the adverse publicity that these gadgets have attracted that made me ask, having flown at night I know how badly any stray light can affect vision

gordon

[earth titan]

Although aircraft are at low risk, helicopters are more likely to be affected. They are slower, fly lower and have transparent cockpits. Police copters have been known to be targeted and they will send ground forces to investigate inappropriate use. I would only use one sparingly and carefully.

[brantuk]

People have been arrested for endangering life shining lasers into cockpits of aircraft - I'm sure that's not you're intention. I sometimes use mine to polar align or visually sight an object under East Mids airport flight path. But I do it very carefully and make sure there's nothing in the air in that direction for the few seconds it takes.

Our dark site is just to the North of East Mids and well within the landing circuit. Oddly enough it's on an RC model aircraft site too lol

[Seafury]

Hi Guys, I think the title of my subject should have been "should the use of lasers be banned altogether" then there would have been no doubt in the intention of anyone on here not to deliberately shine one at anything apart from empty sky, I agree with Tom that helicopters are probably more at risk although fixed wing aircraft at low level or on final approach with cockpit tilted down are also at risk . I really just wondered initially, how much awareness there was about the possible dangers to aircraft/helicopters by people using these things in connection with astronomy

Gordon

[NickK]

Question is - at 1am.. are people going to be landing? Heathrow (30 mins by car) have landing restrictions due to noise. Also it's very rare for a police chopper to be flying here at that time too..

[Seafury]

Hi Nick , I guess every area will be different, down here we have quite a bit of night flying from RNAS Culdrose which is a large busy helicopter station with the Air Sea Rescue choppers around at all times of night and day, I think what put it in my mind original was seeing a program about one of the big Star Parties on TV a while ago which showed a lot of these lasers pointing skywards and I thought to my self then "you wouldn't want to accidentaly fly into that lot"

Gordon

[SplintUK]

But it's not as if they arrive suddenly with no warning. They have serious lights flashing away, and I have never associated the word 'quiet' with a low flying helicopter.

Unless the person in question is very hearing impaired, I can't see how they could accidentally light up a helicopter at night.

[Seafury]

Hi I agree with you they are noisy, it might just have been that some people might be totally unaware of the effect that lasers could have on the night vision of pilots

gordon

[SplintUK]

I doubt anyone in astronomy would be unaware of either the risks or dubious legality of using lasers.

I would have thought the bigger risk at star parties would be people accidentally shining them into telescope objective ends and damaging observers eyes. I've never heard if that happening but it seems more likely than not noticing a low flying helicopter, or being ignorant enough to accidentally point a laser at it.

I think it's fair to say that there is a mathematical possibility of accidentally shining a laser at a low flying helicopter, it's a lot less likely than say winning the jackpot on the national lottery.

I think it's fair to assume any instances of helicopters being lit up are very likely to have been done with malicious intent.

In the cause of empirical study (always better than conjecture), is

anyone on SGL able to admit to accidentally lighting up a low flying helicopter with a laser, or have directly seen it happen to someone else?

[keeplookingup]

just about anything can be potentially dangerous.

Guns don't kill people, people kill people.

I would never point my laser at anything other than the sky. If its potentially bad for pilots I will have to keep my eye out for this but until I hear otherwise...

[Seafury]

" I doubt anyone in astronomy would be unaware of the risks " you would hope so wouldn't you ? I only asked the original question out of a mild concern not having used one in connection with astronomy I wondered what warnings they came with. I could be remembering incorrectly but I believe at least one accident that happened to a police helicopter on landing was attributed to a laser being deliberately shone into the cockpit

Gordon

[SplintUK]

No I am looking for direct data - not hearsay, and I am only looking for accidental cockpit light ups, not deliberate ones.

I suspect there are very few accidental ones.

[E621Keith]

Laser is not safe, neither is solar observation. Therefore, you need to take steps to reduce risk and make it safe, such as using the laser pointer responsibly or using a proper solar filter.

Remember, laser beam may be narrow at the laser pointer end, but it will experience diffraction as it leaves the laser pointer and the beam will spread out over a long distance. As amateur astronomer, we all know it only take a bright flash of light to ruin our dark adaptation. Imagine what would happen to a dark adapted pilot coming into land and get a laser beam shone into his cockpit.

Also, there are some laser pointer on the market that is very dangerous. If you want to know what one of those 50mW laser pointer can do, check out this link about a Chinese amateur who was partially blinded by one.

http://www.hkastroforum.net/viewtopic.php?t=18003

Don't wave laser printer at people.

[stewartlaura67]

Like just about everything: The laser is safe, it is the person that is holding it that is in question.

If you go pointing it at anything that is NOT the lasers fault, it did not take over your mind and make you do it.

As to blinding an aircraft pilot, have you ever considered the situation?

You couldn't hold the other end of a laser steady on a brick at 100 yards, holding it on a plane at 20,00 feet when the plane is moving is not going to happen. Also there is the minor factor of the cockpit of the plane being on top and you are well underneath. Last I knew planes were not made of trasparent material.

So if you are intending to go out, point it at something that is both low down and close then do not blame the laser, it would be completely and totally your fault and your decision.

Completely agree with Capricorn, it’s not the lasers fault in blinding the pilot. It’s the person who is holding the laser responsible.

[E621Keith]

...

Don't wave laser printer at people.

I meant laser pointer , but don't wave around laser printer either, it's heavy and a drop hazard.

[SplintUK]

And it's a nightmare to get the toner out of your clothes. Be safe people, only ever wave ink jet printers about :-)

[Seafury]

they could be dangerous to low flying aircraft if you can throw them high enough

[Alma]

Farnham Astronomical Society published an excellent article on the subject recently. Mandatory reading I think for anyone considering use of a laser pointer.

http://www.farnham-as.co.uk/2012/02/laser-pointer-safety/

[The Sailor]

I have a laser attached on the mount in line with the OTA, it's only used to indicate to other people where the OTA is pointing. The firing mechanism has to be plugged into the back and a pressel switch pinched to operate, no pressure no laser, when not in use the trigger is in my pocket. Have been around lasers since 1980 and have always regarded them as weapons so still carry out all procedures to ensure safety .

Jim

[nightfisher]

I own and use a green laser, but not for astro work as a rule, i use it in my other hobby of carp fishing.............when i bait up a spot it can be a total pain to have ducks and moorhens start diving for my baits, and the last thing i want is for a duck to pick up my hookbait, so running the beam across the pond close to them, (not directly at them) really freaks them out and they tend to avoid the area for a good while, i must stress i would never shine the beam directly at a duck or any other creature, and this tactic is last resort, my preferred method is to catapult small pebbles in a different direction to my baits, this confuses all but the most determined water foul