Gina's Observatory

[JamesF]

Here is a very down and dirty attempt at mine. Drat, I find Sketchup very awkward to use.

Looks good. I found it awkward at first, too. It takes a while to get into the sketchup way of doing things. The benefit for me is that you have to think about the way everything is going to fit together before actually doing it. Doing so has shown up some "usablity" issues with some of the layouts I'd been considering that I perhaps wouldn't have seen if I'd just done some rough sketches on paper and made it up as I went along

James

[JamesF]

Looking good James Great detail - I love it I see you're relying on the interior wall cladding to prevent racking. Interesting. I could do that with my warm room but not the 3 outer walls of the obsy section because I'm not thinking of cladding those. Doing away with diagonal struts in the warm room would make fitting insulation blocks easier.

It looks like you're having the roll off roof covering the warm room as well as the obsy part - is this right? I'll be interested to see your roof design.

I may put some diagonal bracing timbers in anyhow, but I've not worked out how to create them the right size in Sketchup yet

For me I think cladding the entire inside of the obsy makes sense as I'll have power and lighting in there and don't want cables exposed to the small fingers of visitors. If it were just me I quite possibly wouldn't bother.

As regards the roof, my plan was to have the entire roof roll, but always cover the warm room section. I may just put a sheet of thin 8x4 ply over the top of the warm room to create a ceiling and stop draughts.

The one thing I really have to get sorted out is the pier height. For the Mak, C9.25 and 'fracs, it's about right as it is. The problem comes with the eyepiece height when I put the 200P on the mount. I can make the pier shorter and have a removable extension, but if it's too much of a faff to remove then I imagine I'll end up never bothering. I do intend to build a dob base for the 200P so it's not like I'd never use it, but I'd like the ability to use it on the pier as well. I might well lower the pier by another 300mm as that should still give me a view down to 15 degrees above the horizon with the scopes that need a taller pier.

James

[Freff]

Good start I think your model looks nice and clean!

I found SketchUp awkward to use at first too but the videos helped a lot. Here :- Google SketchUp

and here (I found these particularly useful) :- Google SketchUp

The third group of videos refer to importing designs from a CAD app.

Prolific use of groups and components helped a lot in using it. Let me know if you'd like some hints and tips from me.

Thanks for the offer Gina. My failing is getting bored or impatient with software I use rarely.

[Gina]

I downloaded quite a few components (such as the chair, desk etc.) from the sketchup 3d warehouse. Saves loads of time and gives a sense of scale to the design.

James

I can't find these items in the list - are these only available in the Pro version or am I missing something?

[Freff]

Yes unfortunately, only Pro version. Under 'File' there is 3D Warehouse option which when selected guides you to a catalouge of goodies.

[JamesF]

Were there any particular objects you were looking for?

Amongst others I used these:

TMB 100mm F8 Apochromatic Telescope by Rob Willett - Google 3D Warehouse

Herman Miller Eames Executive Chair from Smart Furniture by SmartFurniture.com - Google 3D Warehouse

Eq6 by fletch19 - Google 3D Warehouse

James

[Gina]

I may put some diagonal bracing timbers in anyhow, but I've not worked out how to create them the right size in Sketchup yet

I haven't done it yet either but I think I'll take a piece of the right size timber in either the green or blue axis direction then rotate it to the right angle. Push/pull the ends to fit in between the main support intersections, divide top and bottom faces then rotate each surface to align with the other members. For the other diagonals some copying and rotating and they will fit in for positions where the H & V members have the same spacing. Of course, there may be an easier way.

For me I think cladding the entire inside of the obsy makes sense as I'll have power and lighting in there and don't want cables exposed to the small fingers of visitors. If it were just me I quite possibly wouldn't bother.

Ah yes, good thinking

As regards the roof, my plan was to have the entire roof roll, but always cover the warm room section. I may just put a sheet of thin 8x4 ply over the top of the warm room to create a ceiling and stop draughts.

Yes, I see. Save having to make the warm roof separately waterproof, and quite a lot of work. Interesting idea

The one thing I really have to get sorted out is the pier height. For the Mak, C9.25 and 'fracs, it's about right as it is. The problem comes with the eyepiece height when I put the 200P on the mount. I can make the pier shorter and have a removable extension, but if it's too much of a faff to remove then I imagine I'll end up never bothering. I do intend to build a dob base for the 200P so it's not like I'd never use it, but I'd like the ability to use it on the pier as well. I might well lower the pier by another 300mm as that should still give me a view down to 15 degrees above the horizon with the scopes that need a taller pier.

James

I agree that taking the mount off and inserting an extension would be time consuming and a lot of humping about. I'm thinking I would use a hoist from the roof members to lift my NEQ6 mount if I wanted to take it off again - it was a bit struggle to manhandle it into place.

How about a box to stand on to reach the EP of the Newt? Lighter and quicker than messing about with mount and pier extensions.

[malc-c]

I may put some diagonal bracing timbers in anyhow,

James

I would recommend it. My framework was all at 16" centres, and even with 4 sides connected it was very flexible. A couple of diagonal opposed braces in each panel turned the structure into one solid building

[JamesF]

Yes unfortunately, only Pro version. Under 'File' there is 3D Warehouse option which when selected guides you to a catalouge of goodies.

Not at all. I've not used it, but I'm guessing the Pro version has the 3d warehouse linked in. With the standard version you can go to the website, download the models and then use "File->Import" to load them into your own model.

James

[Gina]

Not at all. I've not used it, but I'm guessing the Pro version has the 3d warehouse linked in. With the standard version you can go to the website, download the models and then use "File->Import" to load them into your own model.

James

Aaah... I see. There is a 3D Warehouse item in the file menu but it brings up an empty box. I'll go and browse their website.

[JamesF]

I agree that taking the mount off and inserting an extension would be time consuming and a lot of humping about. I'm thinking I would use a hoist from the roof members to lift my NEQ6 mount if I wanted to take it off again - it was a bit struggle to manhandle it into place.

How about a box to stand on to reach the EP of the Newt? Lighter and quicker than messing about with mount and pier extensions.

Being able to support the mount from the roof sounds like a useful idea. I've been described as having the physique of a front row forward from a rugby team and I'm quite happy to cart two 20kg bags of animal feed around at a time, but the NEQ6 is pig-awkward to manoeuvre about. It's a very expensive lump of metal that I'd prefer not to go dropping on my toes. A sling to lift the mount suspended from a rope and pulley could make life very simple, not to mention being a sensible precaution, and allowing the possibility of having both hands free to fit and remove the mount.

In fact, given some sort of bracket to fit the threads on the top of the scope rings or a suitably-designed sling, a rope and pulley would be an excellent way of supporting a larger scope like the 200P or even the C9.25 whilst putting it on and taking it off the mount. Given the few pounds it would cost to do and the potential expense of an accident (and I've seen a few people posting here mentioning near-accidents when (un)mounting scopes, it would seem churlish not to.

I'd considered a box to stand on for the newt, but I just know that at some point I'd get preoccupied with something, forget I was on a box and fall off it. There are quite a few threads with designs for observing chairs so I think one of those will be on the cards once the obsy is close to completion.

James

[JamesF]

I would recommend it. My framework was all at 16" centres, and even with 4 sides connected it was very flexible. A couple of diagonal opposed braces in each panel turned the structure into one solid building

Yes, I agree it makes sense. It probably means I can use lighter weight materials for the inner skin of the walls, too.

James

[Freff]

Not at all. I've not used it, but I'm guessing the Pro version has the 3d warehouse linked in. With the standard version you can go to the website, download the models and then use "File->Import" to load them into your own model.

James

My bad, should have said it was not available within standard Sketchup.

With 3D Warehouse the search and tranfer is done from within Sketchup and almost instant.

[Gina]

Placed the roll off section onto the base part and found some slight inconsistencies which I'm now correcting. Also added the obsy section floorboards and shiplap on roll off and N & S walls.

The SketchUp array function is very useful for copying a floorboard to make a floor and for the shiplap cladding too. In both cases I drew the cross-section with the line tool then pulled out the face to make a complete board. For equally spaced wall uprights, drew one, copied (by move tool and ctrl key) to make other end upright, then (without moving the cursor or doing anything else) filled in the intermediate uprights using the internal array function (by typing 3/ Enter on the keyboard). See array in the help and videos.

[JamesF]

The SketchUp array function is very useful for copying a floorboard to make a floor and for the shiplap cladding too. In both cases I drew the cross-section with the line tool then pulled out the face to make a complete board. For equally spaced wall uprights, drew one, copied (by move tool and ctrl key) to make other end upright, then (without moving the cursor or doing anything else) filled in the intermediate uprights using the internal array function (by typing 3/ Enter on the keyboard). See array in the help and videos.

It is exceptionally handy. I've used it a good deal for creating joists and wall framing, and my roof rafters now I've done an initial design for that. What I didn't immediately realise was that when you type a number for the number of copies, that *includes* the one you've just made.

In the process of adding the roof rafters I also worked out how to create diagonal framing components. I pulled a rectangle into the correct dimensions for the timber, making it much longer than it needed to be and made it into a group (a component would work just as well). I then moved the group into a position such that one point on the timber was in the correct place, allowing the ends of the timber to overlap the existing structure. If you rotate the timber about the point that is in the correct position then you should be able to get it all into the right place with the ends overlapping some of the existing structure. That done you need to edit the group, draw lines on the timber where it overlaps your existing structure and "push" the waste bits out of existence. Drawing rules can help with getting the lines right, but you have to remember to remove them before you stop editing the group because you can't remove them from "outside".

Hopefully that makes sense. It worked well for me when I needed to cut the "bird-mouth" and trim a rafter to length for my roof (after which I used an array to duplicate them along the entire roof).

James

[JamesF]

I'm not convinced my description above is very clear. In case it helps I've put a new file with my latest design (including the roof) at http://www.fidell.co.uk/JamesF-Obsy-2011-08-13.zip.

I really ought to start my own thread for this rather than cluttering yours, Gina. If I'm posting much more about my own design then I shall do so.

James

[JamesF]

Whilst I've been beetling about this morning, I've been having a bit of a crisis of faith in my design. Whilst it's a more complex design I'm starting to think it would be better to have a pitched roof with lower walls and lower pier and a fold-down gable. That way I'd preserve some head height when the roof was on, yet have a clear view of the sky for the Mak, SCT and 'fracs and a reasonable eyepiece height for the newt.

Could be another Sketchup marathon this evening

James

[George]

I just do my planning and execution in my head, its very rare for me to actually make a readable plan. My own ROR was built using this hi-tech method and it works very well

[JamesF]

In some instances that method works fine for me -- I pretty much did the entire tree house for the children that way and it turned out really well (and it's by no means a simple thing). I didn't have much formally planned when I started building our new bathroom, either.

For my obsy however there are quite a few variables, some of which are expensive or a real pain to fix, or both, if I get them wrong because I've not thought them through thoroughly (those last four words take some concentration to type properly In such instances I like to make my mistakes on paper, where they can at least be recycled into chicken nesting box material.

James

[Gina]

It is exceptionally handy. I've used it a good deal for creating joists and wall framing, and my roof rafters now I've done an initial design for that. What I didn't immediately realise was that when you type a number for the number of copies, that *includes* the one you've just made.

Yes, it's neither the total number of objects nor the number made by the array keyboard process, but the total number copies ie. the array process includes the first copy. Not very intuitive IMO.

In the process of adding the roof rafters I also worked out how to create diagonal framing components. I pulled a rectangle into the correct dimensions for the timber, making it much longer than it needed to be and made it into a group (a component would work just as well). I then moved the group into a position such that one point on the timber was in the correct place, allowing the ends of the timber to overlap the existing structure. If you rotate the timber about the point that is in the correct position then you should be able to get it all into the right place with the ends overlapping some of the existing structure. That done you need to edit the group, draw lines on the timber where it overlaps your existing structure and "push" the waste bits out of existence. Drawing rules can help with getting the lines right, but you have to remember to remove them before you stop editing the group because you can't remove them from "outside".

Hopefully that makes sense. It worked well for me when I needed to cut the "bird-mouth" and trim a rafter to length for my roof (after which I used an array to duplicate them along the entire roof).

Yes, I think so, a paraphrase of what I posted earlier I think.

I'm not convinced my description above is very clear. In case it helps I've put a new file with my latest design (including the roof) at http://www.fidell.co.uk/JamesF-Obsy-2011-08-13.zip.

Yes, understood.

I really ought to start my own thread for this rather than cluttering yours, Gina. If I'm posting much more about my own design then I shall do so.

James

/Fair enough, though I'm not really bothered

Whilst I've been beetling about this morning, I've been having a bit of a crisis of faith in my design. Whilst it's a more complex design I'm starting to think it would be better to have a pitched roof with lower walls and lower pier and a fold-down gable. That way I'd preserve some head height when the roof was on, yet have a clear view of the sky for the Mak, SCT and 'fracs and a reasonable eyepiece height for the newt.

Yes, I see what you mean about the roof. Only difficulty with a pitched roof is the strength at the apex. A normal roof will have a horizontal brace at the bottom. This is alright as long as no part of your scope is above that level when you open or close the roof. A compromise is to have the brace (a tension member) half way up. You have a great benefit in not having to slide the obsy roof over the warm room roof. With an apex within an apex you can't have a brace.

Could be another Sketchup marathon this evening

I know what you mean!!! Great app but rather fiddly. I'm still struggling with getting things to move in the right direction.

[Gina]

I just do my planning and execution in my head, its very rare for me to actually make a readable plan. My own ROR was built using this hi-tech method and it works very well

Great I used to do that but unfortunately my brain is getting a bit past keeping a lot of detail in my head at a time. It's been working hard for over 69 years now

[Gina]

In some instances that method works fine for me -- I pretty much did the entire tree house for the children that way and it turned out really well (and it's by no means a simple thing). I didn't have much formally planned when I started building our new bathroom, either.

For my obsy however there are quite a few variables, some of which are expensive or a real pain to fix, or both, if I get them wrong because I've not thought them through thoroughly (those last four words take some concentration to type properly In such instances I like to make my mistakes on paper, where they can at least be recycled into chicken nesting box material.

James

Yes, I can still do the simpler things that way and it's only relatively recently that I've gone over to design on the computer. Circuit diagrams and layouts were the first things that went paperless (except for printing out to use at my bench/table).

And yes, getting the obsy build wrong could result in a lot of wasted materials and time. Although SketchUp is by no means ultra intuitive or quick to use, it's still quicker than sawing up pieces of wood and fastening them together.

[JamesF]

Yes, I can still do the simpler things that way and it's only relatively recently that I've gone over to design on the computer. Circuit diagrams and layouts were the first things that went paperless (except for printing out to use at my bench/table).

Is electronics just a hobby, Gina, or did you do it professionally? In the dim and distant past I did an AO level in electronics (and I passed with an A, so I must have done something right), but I just can't seem to get my head around analogue electronics (or coupling together digital stuff, even). I understand how most of the passive and semiconductor components work, but these days, how does one get a good understanding of how to put it all together?

James

[Gina]

Is electronics just a hobby, Gina, or did you do it professionally? In the dim and distant past I did an AO level in electronics (and I passed with an A, so I must have done something right), but I just can't seem to get my head around analogue electronics (or coupling together digital stuff, even). I understand how most of the passive and semiconductor components work, but these days, how does one get a good understanding of how to put it all together?

James

I did it professionally. I was always interested in science and maths and got a BSc degree in Electronics and Electrical Engineering. I went on to a career in electronics and computers. It was a hobby too - amongst other things.

[JamesF]

I did it professionally. I was always interested in science and maths and got a BSc degree in Electronics and Electrical Engineering. I went on to a career in electronics and computers. It was a hobby too - amongst other things.

I wonder if that is perhaps the best way to learn, unless you have a parent who teaches you. The learning curve seems painfully steep initially. Perhaps I just need to accept that it's one of those things that I'm never really going to "get". That's not an attitude that comes easily though

James