mikeDnight

Doesn't it go to show how toxic the name Takahashi can be. Once mentioned there's a tendency for it to dominate a refractor thread. It's a shame really as there are so many other excellent refractors out there, even old secondhand scopes that work just as well today as they did on the day they came out of the factory. Vixen are as good as Tak as far as I'm concerned and I'd be just as happy with an old vixen fluorite or ED doublet, or with one of their more modern incarnations as with my Tak DZ. And I'm talking from experience. I've seen these old scopes kick the living daylights out of Televue's NP101 in terms of planetary definition and contrast, and a 4" Televue costs over £4000 in today's money. And I'm absolutely confident that the Starfield would whop the socks off one too. The bottom line really is that the scope that's likely to get used the most because you enjoy using it the most, is most likely to show you the most. Perhaps the op Littleguy80, might even consider attending the Astronomy Show at Kettering in early March. There he'll be able to meet with other crazy folk, as well as manhandle lots of refractors and perhaps see something not yet mentioned. 😊

Hi Stuart. I was talking about Tak's doublet refractors and in terms of a purely visual instrument. I have no experience with the FSQ at all, nor with imaging, and certainly wouldn't choose one for visual observing. Horses for courses I suppose. There are doubtless many on sgl who do use the FSQ for imaging and could pass comments about it's visual and imaging prowess.

Takahashi are the premier off the shelf telescope manufacturer that all others desire to emulate. With Takahashi it's all about the optics, which are not actually made by Takahashi but by Canon Optron, but to Takahashi's specifications. Tak themselves are an engineering company, and although they have frozen in time with their style and focuser designs, their thermally compensating lens cells are superb and stand out from most other cell designs. And in a sense you are right - if you can afford a Tak, why not go for it as they are top tier. However, the difference in performance in a side by side comparison might not be as great as you might imagine. The way to look at it is that Takahashi produce some of the best refractors in the world, and so if a Starfield will run alongside a Tak and keep pace with it 95% of the time, then the Starfield is a seriously class act. The planet's are the hardest test for a refractor and will separate the good from the not so good. Several years ago, my friend Paulasto had an earlier version of the Starfield ED with which we did a side by side comparison with a FC100DC. His ED played very happily alongside the Tak on stellar, nebulous, and planetary targets. We observed Mercury low in the east and both scopes showed albedo features with relative ease, while Jupiter was dynamic in both. For me the real killer is Saturn's rings which should appear laser etched and highly detailed in a good 4" on a steady night. I can't remember observing Saturn through Paul's scope but I'd be pretty confident it wouldn't disappoint.

Here are a few sketches that show small scopes can be very capable even on DSO's and for observing double stars. The largest scope, a 10" reflector, was used to get a low power view of Venus in the Pleiades. Although nice, I dislike it because of the spider diffraction. When it comes to a 4" refractor, many may be surprised at just how well it can cope with deep sky targets. Some of the easiest deep sky objects are the stars themselves, but they are very often overlooked. So here are just a few to hopefully wet your appetite for double star observing, and sketching. The beauty of double star observing at a basic level is that you don't need to be an artist, yet they can be beautiful as well as easy targets even on a poor night. Small aperture refractors are often said to punch above their weight. This is true if you have a steady, transparent atmosphere and are patient. There's often more on view than first meets the eye, and sketching focuses the observers attention on the deeper things, not just the superficial. Below is a sketch of the Ring nebula M57 as seen through a 4" refractor. Not only does the nebula itself show intricate and subtle differences in brightness, it hints at its structure. And a 4" refractor on a reasonable night when the observer has shielded his or her eyes from any surrounding light, will show the 13.2 magnitude star close to its outer edge. The sketch of M57 below was drawn with graphite pencil on white paper as are most of my deep sky sketches, then blended using a cotton bud. Dead easy really! The observation was made on 9/7/2017 using a FC100DC and a 4mm Nirvana eyepiece giving 185X. Have you ever had the feeling you're being watched? The Owel nebula M97 is a nice target to sketch, as it reveals more than just a bland nebulous disc. The eyes of the Owel can be seen in a 4" scope, but it may take a few minutes before they become obvious. Obvious is not meant to imply easy, as the eyes can challenge an observers visual acuity. Sketching really helps focus the attention to detail. Just because its spectacular, the Orion nebula M42 is a challenging object to sketch accurately. It was when sketching this object that the black nebula really jumped out at me, presenting itself in layers and giving the appearance of real depth tho the clam shell of gas and dust. I don't feel I caught the visual effect well enough in this sketch, but it does give at least some idea of the dark and bright nebulas contrasting features visible in a 4". And here's my most challenging target to date - IC434, and the tiny black nothch representing the Horse Head nebula. As the note on the sketch states, i didnt see the horse head, or at least anything that resembled a horses head, but only a tiny black nothch in IC434 where the HH approximately is. The notch was only visible using averted vision, so accurate placement was near impossible, but it's close. Finding IC434 from my suburban site was challenging too, as I needed to not only block out ant stray light from my surroundings by using a blackout blanket over my head and eyepiece, but i also had the challenge of keeping Alnitak outside my field of view. It must have taken around 20 minutes before a tiny shard of bright nebulosity extending from a star caught my eye. Only then did I become aware of the jet black wall of dust running parallel to the bright nebula. The longer I observed and sketched what I was seeing, the more I saw. The whole observation took about an hour, but it was very satisfying to have finally caught a glimpse of this difficult object. Low power views of star fields is a small refractors playground, and if there's a comet to be seen these scopes are simply awesome.

Thats great and worthy of printing on a T shirt. I love it!

Jupiter & Saturn are dynamic even in a small scope. The following sketches were made using a 4" refractor for Jupiter, and a 4.75" for Saturn. These sketches of Jupiter show interesting shadow transits. In the double sketch below Europa is seen close to the following limb against the northern edge of the NEB. As the planet rotates you'll note the globe detail move toward the preceding limb and Europa pretty much appearing to keep pace. However in the second sketch you can see the perfect tiny globe of Europa appear as it sits against the limb shading and the blackness of space. Below is a double shadow transit from the night of August 8th 2020. I forgot to find out which moons were transiting. Here a 4.75" refractor gives a very pleasing though somewhat bland view of Saturn with its ring system almost edge on. However the NEB, NTB, WEB & STB are all easily seen on the globe. Cassini's division was just visible in the following aspect of the rings. In this sketch number of festoons were visible along the northern edge of the south equatorial belt. Not as immediately obvious as those on Jupiter, they become more easily discernible when thinking in terms of contrast rather than hard detail. This was a spectacular night as the northern edge of Saturn's ring as it crossed the planet displayed what I can only call a peppered edge, as if looking through boulders from a great distance. I saw this effect on the previous night also, but on this night it was my observing buddy who exclaimed "Have you seen the edge of Saturn's ring"? At that point I knew it was a genuine feature, and to back it up i recieved a phone call the following morning from another SGL planetary observer saying "Did you see the edge of Saturn's ring last night"? I attempted to draw the effect in the sketch below but was careful not to over exaggerate it. I hope you can see it.

Forty three years ago when I first cut my astro teeth, sketching was the thing to do. Photography back then was very different from the imaging of today, and a sketch if made well could add quite seriously to our understanding. Even though sketching is nolonger viewed as being of any scientific use by the majority, it remains a highly valuable observing aid, for it has been said that If you really want to see something - draw it. I certainly feel that sketching has helped me to see countless subtle details as seen through the eyepiece that I would otherwise most likely have missed. The sketches that follow are special to me for reasons I'll explain as you brows through them. The Moon through a 4" refractor: If I'm being honest, I struggle with sketching the Moon, as shadows race across its surface at quite a lick, changing a features appearance dramatically in only a few minutes. I screw more paper up while drawing the moon than with anything else, but if something catches my eye I'll try to represent it faithfully. Alpine Valley and Elgers Rille. I first discovered this feature for myself while sketching the valley back in 2001. I was using a 120mm Helios achromat at the time. I later learned that the fine dark rille that crosses the valley widthwise about half way along its length was drawn on a map by Thomas Gwynne Elger, hence my decision to call it Elgers rille. Also seen as a bright white line slightly south of centre while making the sketch, was the central rille. Ive found it's often easier to detect the latter when the valley is some distance from the terminator, and even in full Sun. And speaking of Full Sun. If the Moon is in the sky why ignore it, even if there are no shadows? Messier and Messier A are the twin impact craters, but the best time to study the rays is in full Sun. Here not only are the rays well represented, but also the undulating terrain and differing shades of the surface. Gorgeous mountain shadows: The Hortensius Domes were my sketching target, but I feel the gorgeous shadows steal the glory. Again, as with most of my lunar sketches there isn't a wealth of detail recorded, but enough to give a flavour of the observation. A famous trio: Theophilus, Cyrillus & Catharina are likely well known to all, and I chose them to sketch because they were in shadow, and I though would be relatively easy to draw. I was wrong! I had to race to try and capture enough detai as accurately as I could before it was gone. You'll notice there's very little detail in the terracing, and the sketch in no way represents the level of complexity seen though the eyepiece. At a quick glance the sketch looks ok, so I'm pleased with the result. And finally Rima Ariadaeus: This is one of my favourite lunar sketches as it looks far more complex than it actually is. I chose to draw this because of the double rille running parallel. This was the first time I'd noticed this double rille. Just recently I saw an image indicating it to be so, which gave me a thrill.

Well it transformed my Equinox ED80. At that time I had a fabulous Equinox 120ED in my observatory, but the little 80mm really had me spell bound with the binoviewer. I found myself grabbing the little scope at every opportunity. Often if it was clear and I didn't feel like doing a long session, I'd take the 80mm out for a five minute look at the moon, and find myself still sitting on a frozen garden bench an hour later. I used a 2X barlow on the binoviewer nose and a pair of cheap 16.8mm orthoscopic eyepieces, so nothing fancy or expensive. The views of the Moon were glorious! The experience with the 80mm got me thinking I'd really love a high quality scope between the 80mm and the 120mm, and so came the FC100DC in 2015. It was the best decision I could have made. Almost as easy to handle as the 80mm but with much more punch, the FC100DC soon became my most used scope and I soon sold the 120ED not long after getting the 100mm. Today, after 8 years using a 100mm refractor (now a DZ), I'm still totally content.

Now you're talking! Even if you buy a binoviewer for your ED80 the lunar views will astound you. Then when you get your FC100DC😈 you'll be even more astounded. Sorry! Stu's a bad influence!!

It's definitely not your scopes at fault. It sounds like you've been looking through a lot of turbulent atmosphere. Things will get better for observing Venus, and as David said, it might be better to observe it during twilight. A few years ago I decided to mark a pencil line on my drawtube indicating focus at infinity in my low power eyepiece; I did this while observing night time objects to ensure I had precise focus. This was for the sole purpose of finding Venus in daylight and it works a treat. Daylight observing has its challenges too as the atmosphere can be turbulent, especially on a hot day (remember them?). You might find using coloured filters helps ease the rippling you might experience. Yellow is often thought good for Venus, or a Wrattan 80A (blue) which can aid in detecting bright regions at the cusps as well as along the limb and terminator. Once you see one or two bright areas the very subtle wispy cloud paterns can start to be recognised, especially if you are UV sensitive.

That's sad news which I'm sorry to hear.

It's still a very nice image showing a lot of subtle detail as well as the more obvious features. I think it's very relatable to the current visual appearance and like it a lot.

Hi Gary, You mentioned at the outset a refractor. There's an on going thread on SGL at the moment about the Starfield 102ED at around F7, which would be quite a nice option to consider as it has virtually no cool down time required, and would perform straight out of the house. Having said that, a few years ago a friend brought his SW 127 Mak Cass around for me to take a look. He said it hadn't been out of its case for about a year, so I attached it to a Vixen Porta mount and aimed it at Jupiter. Because it was already thermally stable, the detailed view it gave was really impressive and was comparable, but not quite as sharp as a Vixen 102ED which stood alongside it. I think the refractor will have the edge over the 127 as a planetary scope, but it is a bit more of a hand full. It depends on how big your hands are.

Don't look! I think your refractor is being assimilated by the Borg. Love the mount!

Hi Neil, I'm glad you're keeping your 10". It will go places the 102 can't, however, I'm completely confident the Starfield 102 will compliment the 10" very nicely. The Starfield should give you razor sharp views of the Moon and planets, as well as double stars, and also some nice wider field views of the brighter DSO's. Who knows, you may even fall in love with it. 💘

I would go for what I know is good, and that would be Skywatcher. They are optically good and mechanically good too, and you have the reassurance of them being a known quantity. Would this be your first scope?

Just a quick couple of questions. Does the sketch need to be current, or could it be a sketch from a past observation? Also, is it just one sketch per participant? Mike

A good 114mm reflector should be the better choice for deep sky, as it has grater light gathering ability. And even when it comes to the Moon and planets, the 114 if it has good optics should beat the 80mm refractor. I love refractors very much, but some years ago I was privileged to play with a 4.5" F11 Newtonian, generally thought of as a toy by many, but it left a superb 4" Vixen Fluorite apochromat lagging obviously behind when viewing Saturn. You're never too long in the tooth to be taught a lesson or be caught off guard in this hobby.

Hi Steve, I've used both the early Tal and the later, smarter looking Tal 100R. They are very good with the first version being very industrial and rough around the edges. Optically very good with good colour correction. The 100ED though is better colour corrected and in my view a better choice out of the two because of its cleaner, better defined image. Having said that, I certainly wouldn't turn my nose up at the Tal, as it is a nice refractor.

Thanks for the heads up Stu. I was sulking earlier as its been blanket cloud here for ages, but a short time ago a big sucker hole appeared. The FC was already set up in anticipation so it was razor sharp straight away. The moon of course was glorious with the central rille in the alpine valley being quite obvious as a bright line. Domes around Copernicus were next on the list, and after a quick scan along the beautiful terminator I rushed to Mars before my luck ran out. Strong winds and fast moving cloud had me on edge, but the seeing was pretty good. Tonight it was the turn of my Vixen HR eyepieces to play out, so no binoviewer. The Moon and Mars were nice and sharp in the 3.4mm giving me 235X, but martian detail seemed a bit washy, probably because of the fast moving atmosphere I was looking through. Despite this I did manage to tease out some nice detail as I sketched what I saw. The FC100, despite its relatively small aperture, is an awesome scope and always amazes me. I'm not sure why it does so, by now you'd think I'd be used to it.

So you decided against modelling them for us Dave?

That's a mouthwatering set-up Stu. It looks fantastic!💓

Hi Billy, All good advice so far, and what Stu says in the above post about observing Mars for "quite some time before it gives you too much in return" is so true. I consider myself quite experienced with Mars, but when I look through the eyepiece, I usually see a tiny bland disc. Only rarely does detail jump out at me, so I have to be patient, make sure the scope is critically focused, and after a short time the often very subtle detail gradually reveals itself. Don't look for hard detail on Mars, but rather think in terms of subtle differences in shade and colour. You may then begin to see the white polar cap if its visible, also some of the darker albedo features, and bright clouds along the limb and terminator. If you make a rough sketch of what you think you're seeing, it may surprise you just how much detail is actually on that tiny disc. You'll need to use 120X as a bare minimum but 180X should be better. Mars is shrinking in the eyepiece as its distance between it and the earth increases, so it's going to be a challenge but don't give up. Currently its around 11 arc seconds in diameter but I've seen detail on it when its been less than 5 arc seconds. Here's a sketch from December made using a 60mm refractor. It looks quite impressive, but its important to remember that sketches represent what was seen over an extended period, not what is immediately seen through the eyepiece. Remember that critical focus is vital, and focus changes constantly because of the atmosphere were having to look though.

Hi Tezz, Keeping this scope in your living room may not be a good idea; a cold dry room would be better. A SCT, or any catadioptric telescope that uses an amplifying secondary mirror, can take as long as 3 hours to reach thermal stability when coming from a warm environment to outside. The stars you hope to see may appear as blob's and be very disappointing due to the internal heat, plus the scope has a narrow field of view, so large impressive targets won't be seen to advantage. What is it you'd like to observe or image - Moon & planets, Solar, or deep sky, wide field? There may be a more suitable choice that will fit your circumstances.

You'll be in good company around here then Martin. Welcome back! Best lay off the pizza and jam sponge for a while then Jeremy.