Film

[Superewza]

Recently came into possession of a Fujica St605n, and it got me wondering - do any astrophotographers still use film? What are the advantages/disadvantages?

[Merlin66]

No real advantages today with Film.

Some films have a better UV response so have a role to play in spectroscopy.

The resolution of today's DSLR's are much better now than film......

(I used film for almost twenty years and still have all the Oly OM1 gear....probably should be in a museum...like me)

[joe4444]

There are probably more advantages than disadvantages with digital, but resolution is arguably not one.

Film Resolution: The Pixel Count of Film

[Merlin66]

Hmmm

Interesting, but not 100% accurate.

The minimum grain size in development is between 14 and 20 micron with fine grained film. This doesn't compare well with a 6micron pixel even with Nyquist sampling.....

[joe4444]

I failed to notice the date on the page I linked (December 2008). Perhaps digital sensor technology has made significant advances in the last 2 years.

[Rob_Jn]

I think points 1&2 in the summary say it all, there may be a theoretical advantage but realising this? There are so many more advantages with digital for astronomy.

Rob.

[StarryEyes]

(I used film for almost twenty years and still have all the Oly OM1 gear....probably should be in a museum...like me)

I have an Olympus OM2 (two infact) that I still use for my general film photography (not astro). Brilliant cameras.

The beauty of film cameras is that they never really become out of date technology.

I would like to try using film for astro work sometime. Is it possible to get a T adapter to fit my OM2 to my Evostar 80ED?

[Merlin66]

Yes,

You can still get the T2 camera adaptors for the Oly.

Worth checking to see what film is currently available. I still have some Kodak Max 400, and Agfa Vista 200 in the fridge...just in case;)

[StarryEyes]

Can you use any film then or is there anything specific that is best. I can easily source film thats not a problem unless it is something specific.

[Merlin66]

Any fine grain 200ISO (or above) will get you started.

Jack Martin still uses B&W film to record his spectra! (It gives better response down in the UV - important for hot stars) He suggests:

Kodak TMax 100-400

Ilford Pan F50

FP4 125

HP5 400

Fuji Neopan 400 - 1600

[StarryEyes]

Cool thanks.

I've got some Fuji neopan CN so I'll give it a go and try some colour.

Sorry Superewza didn't mean to hijack your thread.

[joe4444]

What about slower films? I'm still trying to take my first astro photo, but I have yet to get a good shot of the moon. Mostly I've tried Ilford Delta 100 and Ilford PANF Plus 50, but for even finer grain (and sharper enlargements) I'd like to try ISO 25. Has anyone used Rollei Pan 25, Adox CHS 25, Efke KB25, or anything else? Those are the only ISO 25 films I can find in 35mm.

Anyone have a couple rolls of Kodak Tech Pan I could buy?

[Superewza]

Cool thanks.

I've got some Fuji neopan CN so I'll give it a go and try some colour.

Sorry Superewza didn't mean to hijack your thread.

No problem, not like it was going anywhere anyway

Joe, surely for a low ISO film you'd have to use a far longer exposure? As long as you can track the moon, that's fine Bear in mind i have no idea what i'm talking about here, i've only really seen films that slow used for copying.

[Superewza]

Hmmm

Interesting, but not 100% accurate.

The minimum grain size in development is between 14 and 20 micron with fine grained film. This doesn't compare well with a 6micron pixel even with Nyquist sampling.....

Well surely somebody's calculations are off here, if film effectively has say 10 times the 'pixels' in something 1.5 times larger than your average sensor then those pixels are going to occupy a smaller space... unless they're very spaced out on a digital light sensor.

[Merlin66]

I'm not sure I understand where your going.

Think of a piece of 35mm film as being covered with silver halide crystals 14 to 20 micron in size. When each or any of these crystals gets enough photon "hits" it converts and becomes a developable grain. So, best case a star image would been on one grain ie 20 micron in size.

The digital cameras with say 6micron pixels are equivalent to a 12 micron pixel due to sampling theory, so the same star could appear as an image 12 micron across.

[Superewza]

I'm not sure I understand where your going.

Think of a piece of 35mm film as being covered with silver halide crystals 14 to 20 micron in size. When each or any of these crystals gets enough photon "hits" it converts and becomes a developable grain. So, best case a star image would been on one grain ie 20 micron in size.

The digital cameras with say 6micron pixels are equivalent to a 12 micron pixel due to sampling theory, so the same star could appear as an image 12 micron across.

Size isn't everything

I was asking about concentration, if a 14MP digital sensor has 14 million pixels on it, and a 35mm piece of film requires 87 million pixels to record more or less all the data on it (according to the above article) then it would stand to reason that the crystals are far more concentrated on the film than the pixels are on the sensor. Perhaps it goes into three dimensions, which is another question altogether.

Also, i'm not sure if each silver halide crystal can only have one value - would it not in itself react with whatever light hits it? Say red light hits one side of a crystal and green the other, you would have a multi-coloured crystal. Therefore there would be far more data recorded on the film than the pixel sensor?

[Photosbykev]

Film manufacturers stopped the production of almost all film types several years ago because of HSE issues with the chemicals involved with the film production.

The film on the shelves at the moment is being supplied by film stockpiles held deep underground. When the stockpile runs out for the domestic market, and it is running out very quickly, then film cameras will become worthless as thousands hit ebay or just get thrown away.

[joe4444]

Film manufacturers stopped the production of almost all film types several years ago because of HSE issues with the chemicals involved with the film production.

The film on the shelves at the moment is being supplied by film stockpiles held deep underground. When the stockpile runs out for the domestic market, and it is running out very quickly, then film cameras will become worthless as thousands hit ebay or just get thrown away.

Where did you get that information? Is this only in the UK?

[Merlin66]

I remember back in the 1990's seeing a digital "cartridge" which dropped into a Nikon camera - like the film spool with a tag..the tag had the CCD chip and it just sat on the film rails in the camera body. This sounded like an ideal solution for all the guys who had invested in SLR bodies and lenses. I asked about versions for Olympus (I was using Oly stuff back then) and they said they were only offering Nikon solutions.... well about 6 months later they were bought out and guess what????

The product was dumped and never seen again.

I think they were worried about the impact in DSLR sales if all the older SLR's could be easily converted to digital....

Still, seemed like a great idea at the time.......

[Photosbykev]

Where did you get that information? Is this only in the UK?

This was direct from a Kodak rep when I bitched about them dropping 120 Techpan film. We used to get through over 12,000 rolls a year but had to switch to higher sensitivity film which was fogged by radiation at a faster rate.

Ilford are still putting some film through but even on their sites there are hints about special orders for some film etc.

and then there are the Russians who have a weird idea of quality control on their film.

[Superewza]

To be honest though, black and white film is a back yard business - if somebody wants to buy it then there'll be someone willing to make it. Colour film? It's a lot more complex, we'll have to see how it goes, but it's really not in any danger at the minute.

[StarryEyes]

Film manufacturers stopped the production of almost all film types several years ago because of HSE issues with the chemicals involved with the film production.

This rings a bell, but I think (I could be wrong though) that they found another way to produce it that was less of an issue.

I will try to find out tomorrow.

[joe4444]

StarryEyes, any luck? I would imagine you are correct. To think they stopped producing film "several years ago" but have yet to run out doesn't make sense. Most companies don't overproduce enough to have a stockpile that will meet demand for many years. Maybe the film industry is different though.

[fatwoul]

I'm becoming interested in trying film again, as I still have my F3 and an F100 (neither of them are worth enough to bother trying to sell them), and a fridge full of film. Best of all, working in a university photography department, I have access to B&W chemistry, and we have now acquired a C41 machine for colour negs.

I have also borrowed a couple of cameras from work, and hope to try both of them on my EQ6: a Hasselblad with an 80mm, and best of all an old MPP with a 150mm!

I just wish the image circle on my MN190 was big enough for 6x6. :-(

[joe4444]

Here is the response I got from Kodak. They may have discontinued some types of film like Tech Pan, but they certainly did not stop making all film several years ago.

Although we announced the discontinuance of Kodak consumer cameras (i.e., 35 mm and Advanced Photo System) quite sometime ago, please be assured that Kodak is, and will remain, committed to manufacturing and marketing the world's highest quality film. We will continue to support the needs of retailers and photofinishers and believe the large population of traditional cameras currently in use by loyal consumers will support film sales for years to come.