8" to 10" upgrade - would I see more?

[John]

Like O'Meara in Hawaii - he's using a 4" Genesis to see far more than I can see with a 12" in my back garden, and appears to be able to see most of the Messier list with either the naked eye or 7x35 binoculars!

Well if SGL will sponsor me, I'll be very happy to spend a couple of weeks with my Vixen ED102 on Hawaii and feedback (occasionally !) on how DSO's look from there

[michael.h.f.wilkinson]

I have seen spiral structure in M51 in my old 6" F/8 Newt, on a really dark site. 8" makes it easier,though still no colour

[F15Rules]

I agree with Jahmanson, it's as much to do with local sky conditions I think..

As a refractor fan all my life, I took the plunge recently and bought a mint used Helios Explorer 8" F5 newtonian. I was keen to compare it to my 6" F12 refractor, and I expected, taking the respective areas of light gathering, (the 8" mirror being around twice the area of the 6" fracs' lens, albeit obstructed by the secondary flat), to see far more with the reflector on DSOs, but with less contrast and definition, the areas where fracs score so well.

Well, firstly, I was pleasantly surprised with the quality of the reflectors' images..at F5 I had expected mediocre image quality and some coma, but TBH what I actually saw were excellent, apochromatic images. Jupiter was very sharp and the colour rendition was very slightly better than on my F12 6".

However, I could see no more detail than with my refractor, so I turned to M13... the image was slightly (and I mean slightly) brighter than on the frac, but the resolution was little different...a sprinkling of faint stars which stood out better with averted vision in both scopes.

When it came to looking at a couple of notable doubles, there was no contest, the frac won hands down. At F12 this is not surprising, it was much easier to gain fine perfect "snap" focus than in the reflector, where it got just a bit "mushy".

So, for me, the jump from 6" to 8" was underwhelming and I personally will never like reflectors in practical terms..the finder was a nightmare to use/line up compared to the same size finder on my frac, the tube seemed fragile/flexing compared to the frac and standing up to view most objects rather than sitting with the frac was a pain. Maybe if Nicks' scope has Hilux coatings, the difference would be bigger...Nick, you have a 6" frac, so how does that compare to the Orion 8"?

I suffer from a fair bit of light pollution all around me, up to about zero degrees, and I think that both scopes would have performed much better with truly dark skies (stating the obvious, I know).

So for me, a smaller refractor, if I could only have one scope, would be my choice, but I may well keep the reflector and use it on fuzzies now and again.

My final point would be that I do think that the surfeit of fabulous detailed, coloured and highly processed images we see taken daily by amateurs these days can lead to unrealistic expectations of what we will see visually. But they are two different aspects of our hobby..visually, what you are looking at is really there, as it is, at that time. Image wise, what you see is often the result of many hours of processing by sophisticated software programs..not knocking that, but speaking personally, I get much more of a thrill from just knowing that that faint blob or "mist" is really there right in front of me, now, sending it's faint light all that way to us.

Hope you come to the right decision for you Nick, good luck..

Dave

[Nick P]

I agree with Jahmanson, it's as much to do with local sky conditions I think..

As a refractor fan all my life, I took the plunge recently and bought a mint used Helios Explorer 8" F5 newtonian. I was keen to compare it to my 6" F12 refractor, and I expected, taking the respective areas of light gathering, (the 8" mirror being around twice the area of the 6" fracs' lens, albeit obstructed by the secondary flat), to see far more with the reflector on DSOs, but with less contrast and definition, the areas where fracs score so well.

Well, firstly, I was pleasantly surprised with the quality of the reflectors' images..at F5 I had expected mediocre image quality and some coma, but TBH what I actually saw were excellent, apochromatic images. Jupiter was very sharp and the colour rendition was very slightly better than on my F12 6".

However, I could see no more detail than with my refractor, so I turned to M13... the image was slightly (and I mean slightly) brighter than on the frac, but the resolution was little different...a sprinkling of faint stars which stood out better with averted vision in both scopes.

When it came to looking at a couple of notable doubles, there was no contest, the frac won hands down. At F12 this is not surprising, it was much easier to gain fine perfect "snap" focus than in the reflector, where it got just a bit "mushy".

So, for me, the jump from 6" to 8" was underwhelming and I personally will never like reflectors in practical terms..the finder was a nightmare to use/line up compared to the same size finder on my frac, the tube seemed fragile/flexing compared to the frac and standing up to view most objects rather than sitting with the frac was a pain. Maybe if Nicks' scope has Hilux coatings, the difference would be bigger...Nick, you have a 6" frac, so how does that compare to the Orion 8"?

I suffer from a fair bit of light pollution all around me, up to about zero degrees, and I think that both scopes would have performed much better with truly dark skies (stating the obvious, I know).

So for me, a smaller refractor, if I could only have one scope, would be my choice, but I may well keep the reflector and use it on fuzzies now and again.

My final point would be that I do think that the surfeit of fabulous detailed, coloured and highly processed images we see taken daily by amateurs these days can lead to unrealistic expectations of what we will see visually. But they are two different aspects of our hobby..visually, what you are looking at is really there, as it is, at that time. Image wise, what you see is often the result of many hours of processing by sophisticated software programs..not knocking that, but speaking personally, I get much more of a thrill from just knowing that that faint blob or "mist" is really there right in front of me, now, sending it's faint light all that way to us.

Hope you come to the right decision for you Nick, good luck..

Dave

Thanks for the input Dave, I too find that the frac gives better views of bright objects (planets, doubles etc) and the Newt wins on DSO and fuzzies. This translates to the AR6 being used very infrequently and the Newt being the main workhorse.

You hi lite one of my fears of going through all the hassle of an upgrade whereby the views were a little better, but not particularly noticeable and that has been a theme echoed through this thread, and from all the advice given the Hilux coatings I currently have would make any difference even more marginal.

I agree that with all the superb photographic images we see posted here and on other forums / sites it is easy to build up an expectation of views that can't possibly be met visually - hopefully I wont fall into that trap!

[Nick P]

Well, after much research, great advice from the forum, and umming and ahhing - I spent the last hour or so playing with the refractor and goto mount to reacquaint myself with the crisp clear views of a 6" achromat.

After much faffing about I remembered why an 8" newt on a manual mount was so appealing - very light and quick to set up!

I didn't manage to see anything before the sea mist rolled in!

So have decided to stick with the newt, and put it on an Orion Optics dobsonian mount and sell the refractor and EQ mount.

Next time aperture fever strikes it will be an upgrade to a 12 or 14" dob when space allows.

[Moonshane]

I think that you made an excellent decision.

you'll be blown away when you get a larger dob and in the meantime try and get a peek through a couple side by side with your 8"

[Nick P]

you'll be blown away when you get a larger dob and in the meantime try and get a peek through a couple side by side with your 8"

I think that sums it up Shane, 8" OO to 10" Skywatcher isn't going to be that big a jump - and I know within a very short time I would be wanting to upgrade again - so may as well make the best of the very good scope I have and get what I really want later when circumstances allow!

[Moonshane]

definitely mate.

there's always a tendency to strive for better than what we have when actually what we have is actually pretty darn good and we should appreciate it more!

there's no doubt that an 8" can show you great things (like I need to tell you that!).