So I bought this scope on ebay...

[lifechooser]

I'm a complete newbie and will happily admit that I know nothing other than to ask for advice and join a club, so feel free to tell me if I'm doing something wrong. Right now, my expectations are low, my aim is to have a good look at the moon, try to get a good look at saturn and jupiter, and generally marvel at how those points of light are often hundreds of points of light, really close together.

The long story goes (skip this paragraph if you want to). I was in PC World/Currys megastore and they had some telescopes. The cheapest of which I don't remember, but the next two were £75 and £150 - the later one had an eq mount with motordrive and everything, and was just within budget. A quick bit of research later suggested that it's not worth spending less than £500, and even then don't expect an eq mount. Disappointed I gave up the idea, until I had a quick look on ebay.

On ebay was an Orion Europa 200 f6 on gem1 eq mount. It looked the business and was cheap because it "has a watermark on the mirror", "a few dents and scratches", "the finder scope is missing" and "I have some eyepieces somewhere but they're not very good. I might try to find them." Other information was sparse.

£122 and 24 hours later and I'm at the sellers house with a car which is only just big enough. The seller had found the flight case which contained 6 eyepieces, a barlow lens, 2 filters (moon and 21), original instructions etc, and also wondered if I wanted a couple of books, star map, rotating star finder thing, etc.

So here I am, I think I've got a bargain, but it needs some work and I have no idea. So first questions first;

1) Finder scope. The original was smashed apparently, however the holder is still there. Do I find something which fits those 2 rings, or do I buy one with a mount. In fact, I don't even know where to start. Can someone help. Remember I'm on a tight budget here. I'm guessing I can't live without and just use the 36mm ep?

2a) The mirror. There's a 1cm diameter mark of some sort on it, and I can see bits of dust too. I want to take it out and clean it. Is this wise? I found this video of cleaning a mirror with water and fairy liquid and it looks ok, as long as I'm careful.

. Is this ok, or will I damage any of the coatings?

2b) If I do have a water spot can I use lemon or vinegar on that spot to remove it, or is it best ignored?

2c) Will I ever collimate it properly if I'm an newbie? I have lots of patience.

2d) What about the smaller mirror, should I just reach in and use a lens cloth gently on it?

3) Probably a bit early to ask this, but is there a primer somewhere on using a webcam to capture photos? Is a webcam best as I have an dslr, a digital compact, and a small wallet.

Sorry about the barrage of questions. Thanks for your advice.

Richard

[Starblazer]

1) Finder scope. The original was smashed apparently, however the holder is still there. Do I find something which fits those 2 rings, or do I buy one with a mount. In fact, I don't even know where to start. Can someone help. Remember I'm on a tight budget here. I'm guessing I can't live without and just use the 36mm ep?

First light optics link at top of forum has plenty of finders for sale, also, if you spend some time here and post regular, you will eventually see the For Sale forum, where you may well pick one up cheaply. If it has guide rings already then i would be tempted to just get a right angle finder and sitting it in there.

2a) The mirror. There's a 1cm diameter mark of some sort on it, and I can see bits of dust too. I want to take it out and clean it. Is this wise? I found this video of cleaning a mirror with water and fairy liquid and it looks ok, as long as I'm careful.

. Is this ok, or will I damage any of the coatings?

Don't bother, will take more than that to affect the performance

Cleaning is a good option if you have the time, the space and the gonads to do it, but it's best left alone.

2b) If I do have a water spot can I use lemon or vinegar on that spot to remove it, or is it best ignored?

Ignored, but some may say different.

2c) Will I ever collimate it properly if I'm an newbie? I have lots of patience.

With a Laser Collimator and taking your time, or a chesire/cat's eye. But don't rush and overtighten and watch the guides online. Astrobaby has a link on her site for collimation setup.

2d) What about the smaller mirror, should I just reach in and use a lens cloth gently on it?

Can do but be careful not to scratch it, also, make sure your OTA is tilted so the cloth doesn't shoot down the tube.

3) Probably a bit early to ask this, but is there a primer somewhere on using a webcam to capture photos? Is a webcam best as I have an dslr, a digital compact, and a small wallet.

Imaging section of the forum has plenty of links. Wait until you get used to using the scope on it's own and get the mount and such balanced as good as possible....Imaging can be a tasking and expensive thing to do, the results are worth it, but as I said, start from the beginning and take ur time, don't rush, the stars aint going anywhere ... well, some may be haha.

Most of all have fun, worst thing about taking on the imaging task is that small shakes and planes n such can often ruin good subs, so it's easier to get stressed. Visually, learning the skies and searching about for things will make locating images to target later, much easier and without use of expensive goto options.

[lukebl]

Hi there and welcome.

Sounds like you might well have a bargain there, despite your misgivings. And 6 eyepieces! How about posting a picture of the setup.

Don't rush into trying to fix and adjust things until you've tested it. a quick star test will tell you if the collimation is way out.

As for the finder. You should be able to pick up one second hand easily enough.

Be patient. Difficult, I know!

[lifechooser]

I feel as though I have a bargain. Everything that is wrong with the scope is fixable for little money, so I don't have misgivings, I just need to learn how to fix the issues. I think for now I will just stick with obtaining a finder scope.

Tonight I'll go through the box of eyepieces and post up what I have - I don't know which will be good (if any).

I'll check the alignment tomorrow, if the skies are clear, and take my first look. I'm way more excited than I should be. I've no reason to suspect that it's out of collimation - questions about collimating were following on from removing and cleaning the mirror. If it's way out then I'll probably remove the mirror and clean it as it's the collimating part that worries me!

Thanks for the advice so far, keep it coming!

[Demonperformer]

Would have to agree with previous posters.

First, get outside and use the scope and see what it is like - if there are problems then see about fixing them (you will get loads of help from SGLers) - but if it ain't broke don't try and fix it (without being patronising : especially as a newbie)

[barkis]

Welcome to SGL Richard. What you describe here are really not serious problems. You have probably got yourself a very decent telescope, which only requires some TLC.

Do not rush into cleaning any of the optics until you are conversant with how to do that job. I would forget the Washing up liquid, some of them have a mild acid content, and not suitable for an aluminium coating. As already said, the mark won't affect it's optical performance at all, but if the collimation is off, then that will degrade images. Learn to walk before you try to run. Put imaging on the back burner for a while, and concentrate on the scope refurbishment first.

Good Luck.

Ron.

[lukebl]

.... I'm way more excited than I should be.... I'

You have every reason to be excited!

Don't worry if the collimation is out, though. It often is with Newtonians but not difficult to adjust with a bit of practice. I put mine out completely when I first got it due to unnecessary tinkering. Total panic, till I realised that it's not that difficult to fix.

[Starblazer]

I'd be less worried about collimating than i would cleaning!

Improper cleaning will damage the optics perminently, this is not good, collimation spot on or not, damaged optics through incorrect cleaning will ruin the scope.

If i was you, i would join a local astronomy club if there is such a thing near you. Learn how to accurately collimate your scope and learn the sky, a water mark really should make little difference to your views. I know how it feels to want to clean it, i've had that thought myself many times, especially when i first bought my scope second hand....but it's much better to get used to using your scope and handling it before dismantling it and risking further damage.

[kidlands]

Richard well done on a great bargain mate. It will all come together and you will have great views, dont panic.

steve

[lifechooser]

Thanks guys. I'll do some research into finder scopes, and apart from that, just hope for clear skies!

[angusb1]

Well done! I paid about the same for my newtonian from eBay but you got a load of eyepieces as well, good bargain.

Checking collimation is all I would do after you get a finder. Enjoy your bargain while you learn your way around the sky and see what kind of imaging (if any) takes your fancy in due course. You might also want to consider a red dot finder instead of a conventional finder scope. cheap and very simple to use.

Clear skies!

[lifechooser]

I've added some photos to flickr; New telescope - a set on Flickr

I think the 'waterspot' is actually a chip. It's hard to tell, but it is quite small. I hope it doesn't affect the image too badly.

I set the tripod up in the garden as the skies are clearing. I set the RA and DEC (?) to 0, and instead of pointing roughly at polaris, I found myself looking at a tomato plant. Very odd. There's a photo on flickr showing that there's some sort of scope built into the mount, which is cool and will help lining up polaris - however look closely and you'll see that the telescope is horizontal here. I need to remove the clamps and reattach them at 90 degrees to where it is now!

I've taken some shots of my eyepieces. I've got the original 9mm and 25mm, a celestron 32mm, another 32mm, a 17 and 6. I can't see any brand names, so I'm guessing they're quite cheap. Ditto the barlow. The celestron is currently mounted - see the photo which also shows the 'finder rings'.

Anyway, unbelievably, skies are clear, so I'm off outside now. :)

[MarkF]

Looks like a bargain to me, is the mark on the mirror in the centre? If so it could just be where the doughnut sticker has fallen off and that is the glue residue. just a thought. Oh and that lever above the polar scope is a clutch just release it and you can move the scope around without having to turn the fine tuning knob. Do a google for setting up a GEM mount.

[yeti monster]

Looks like a good ebay bargain to me too. Just check the collimation and get a Telrad/RDF/Finder-scope fitted and you'll be all set for the autumn nights....

[great_bear]

Yes, you do have a bargain.

A rare eBay success story - Well Done !

[haitch]

Don't touch that secondary mirror with a lens cloth - they only thing you should use on either mirror is a very light detergent solution, your finger tips (some say) and pure surgical cotton wool.

[barkis]

That does look like a small chip in the mirror. Very indicative of a case of an adjusting tool slipping from a previous owners fingers whilst adjusting the secondary mirror, falling down the tube onto the mirror.

Always make sure the tube is in a horizontal position when working with any tool in the mouth of the tube, or better still, tape any tool to a piece of string, and then tie the string to your hand.

Better safe than sorry.

If ever the mirror is removed, you can carefully dab a little Matt Black paint over the chip. Place a piece of Acid free tissue over the rest of the mirror first, with a small hole in it just to expose the chip itself. It will prevent the chance of any paint drips anywhere else on the mirror.

Don't make this a specific task, only do it if there is another reason for taking the mirror out of the telescope. Such as for a cleaning job.

Ron.

[lifechooser]

Thanks everyone. Why was I not surprised to get no replies on a clear starry night

So, I took it out for the first time last night, as you know. Conditions were far from ideal, I was on wooden decking, without a finder of any sort, with a view of only a small part of the sky thanks to houses and trees, but...

... it was great! I saw the moon with far more detail than ever before, and loved it.

I was mostly just wandering aimlessly around the sky, especially as I waited for the moon to rise over the tree. Everything looked clear, and well collimated, but most things seemed quite faint. This could be dirty eyepieces, lots of light pollution, not allowing my night vision to develop, or just not looking in the right place I guess!

I've got a few jobs to do now, and a bit of shopping;

First - rotate the telescope mounting rings by 90 degrees, and align the zeros with the polaris finder.

Second - Get a red dot finder (cheaper than a 90 degree finderscope), a red head torch, and a webcam (if only for the moon to start with).

Third - Do some cleaning. The moon filter I used was opaque, so I'm going to take a good look at it, and the other eyepieces.

Forth - hope for good weather at the weekend, and take it somewhere darker with more sky and solid ground. Does anyone fancy meeting up in the New Forest?

Questions I still have;

My 9mm eyepiece looks like it's designed to poke your eye out. Should I be careful using this?

Can I take photos with a normal camera - through an ep perhaps? Or do I need to go down the webcam route (probably easiest).

I was very impressed with the quality of the celestron 32mm and super plossl 17mm, but less with the keller 9mm and unknown (super plossl?) 6.3mm. If I decide to buy a better high power eyepeice, what would be a good size to go for (f/6, 1200mm focal length, 8" mirror)

Why would a lens cloth be bad to use on the secondary? Is it because of the risk of picking grit up and scratching?

I'm sure many more questions will come!

[Demonperformer]

If you are close to New Forest, may be worth having a look at SCAG social group, who meet there once per month (around new moon). The person to speak to is "Russ".

You can take pics using a DSLR (put in place of the eyepiece using T-Ring/nosepiece depending on if your scope already has the ability to connect to camera body). Holding camera to eyepiece CAN work, but it is a bit hit-and-miss - you will probably find it incredibly frustrating if you do very much of it.

[dmahon]

Nice find - looks like you got a bargain.

[lifechooser]

How do I find / join SCAG?

Edit: I've worked it out.

[haitch]

Questions I still have;

My 9mm eyepiece looks like it's designed to poke your eye out. Should I be careful using this?

Can I take photos with a normal camera - through an ep perhaps? Or do I need to go down the webcam route (probably easiest).

I was very impressed with the quality of the celestron 32mm and super plossl 17mm, but less with the keller 9mm and unknown (super plossl?) 6.3mm. If I decide to buy a better high power eyepeice, what would be a good size to go for (f/6, 1200mm focal length, 8" mirror)

Why would a lens cloth be bad to use on the secondary? Is it because of the risk of picking grit up and scratching?

I'm sure many more questions will come!

I'm guessing the 9mm has a volcano shaped top? If so it's because it has very little eye relief (how far your eye needs to be from the lens for optimum viewing) so you probably will need to get very close so watch you don't poke yourself - actually I find the biggest problem with little eye relief is getting grease off my eye lashes on the lens.

Telescope mirrors are what are known as first surface mirrors. Unlike a mirror you might check your hair in (Ahh I remember those days), which has a silvering on the back, telescope mirrors are silvered on the front (although it is usually aluminium with a hard overcoating these days). Even with a hard coating these are very easily scratched and you should stick to the very gentle washing procedures in the online guides for both the primary and secondary.

The problems you are having with the high power EPs may be caused by any combination of collimation, seeing and scope temperature - these are all more noticeable at high magnifications so don't dismiss the EPs you've got just yet.

I don't do imaging so I'm not the best to answer on camera stuff.

As for the chip it only covers a fraction of a % of the surface area - the secondary causes far more of an obstruction. the release of tension in the glass may have caused it to change the figure of the glass slightly around it but if you're lucky it won't be noticeable. One thing you could do with the chip is put something black over it (even paint it with blackboard paint if you are very careful) to prevent it scattering light.

[haitch]

Just had a look through your photos. The finder scope built into the mount is for aligning the mount to the pole star to allow tracking of objects using the RA axis only. It's not for finding things for viewing through the scope.

I think you need to meet up with SCAG - I'm sure they'll soon show you how to use an equatorial mount.

[lifechooser]

Thanks Haitch, some very useful advice there.

I hadn't thought about the mirrors being reflective on the front surface. I had assumed they were the same as normal mirrors, but I guess that would cause all sorts of ghosting issues.

It makes sense from there that cleaning would be difficult. I think I need to clean the mirrors however, but will do a lot more research first. I also want to get some use out of the telescope before I risk breaking it. I'm used to cleaning my DSLR's sensor, which is equally delicate, but also far more fiddly!

The problems I had with the high power were probably mostly related to the decking I was on. But also lack of night vision, lots of light pollution and also being a novice.

I've ruled out proper imaging, mainly because I can't seem to source a motor for the mount, but I've got plans for taking a few quick shots of the moon with my dSLR and a few home brew mounts.

I'd worked out the polar finder, but I wasn't aware that such a thing existed. It should be very useful. I'll update this thread after I've done some proper observing at the weekend.

I've got a tick list planned for this weekend, and next (SCAG meet). They are;

- Take a photo of the moon

- Find Jupiter (I've never seen it before)

- Find a galaxy (I've never seen one before) (M31?)

- Find a nebula (Guess what) (M57?)

I've got a few nights to do it in.

[Demonperformer]

All of those should be easily obtainable on 4th (subject to clouds). In case you are bringing a laptop to download your moon photos onto, I will try to remember to bring my neximager, as you will then be able to get an image of Jupiter ... should be a possibility with manual controls ... determined to turn you to the dark side:evil4: