First Telescope Issues - Normal?

[SoulRebel]

Hi all,

Thank you in advance for your assistance/advice. My five year old is obsessed with space and I got her a basic telescope for her birthday. I have never had a telescope before and am extremely new to the hobby, so I did some research and settled on this one as a "basic" model:

Orion 21100 SpaceProbe II 76mm AZ Beginner Telescope Kit. Link: Amazon.com : Orion SpaceProbe II 76mm Altazimuth Reflector Telescope for Beginners - Ideal Telescope Astronomy Gift Includes Eyepieces & MoonMap : Electronics

In addition, I bought an Orion brand 2x Barlow Lens, a moon filter, and some other accessories. 

So far, it has been an extreme frustration to use, with a few glimmers of hope mixed in:

Positives:

* When I can actually get an image lined up, it is really exceptionally cool. I managed to see the 4 largest moons of Jupiter quite clearly on the first time I tried it.

Negatives:

* The "red-dot reflex sight" is kind of a joke or I'm using it very wrong. I aim the telescope at a faraway point and center the image through the eyepiece; then I adjust the knobs on the laser so the red dot is exactly where the telescope's eyepiece is showing. However, the slightest movement of the telescope, etc., can completely throw off the red dot sight, as its SO loosely connected to the telescope. Surely something like this is not normal?  Would the solution be a better red dot reflex site that connects w/ more stability? Recommendations?

* Insanely shaky image. I have tried the telescope on concrete, asphalt, grass, dirt, etc., and ensured the tripod legs are firmly locked in. No matter what I do, it seems like when I look into the eyepiece, the image is incredibly shaky, as if the whole telescope is moving. I have no idea what could be causing this. I am not near enough to roads, etc., where the vibrations could affect it, but it just doesn't make sense to me. Again, normal?

* Perhaps the most frustrating: When adjusting the azimuth knob at the top of the tripod in an attempt to lock the telescope's left-right motion, when the knob gets tightened, the altitude of the telescope goes up and the telescope moves slightly to the right. This is frustrating because you can line something up perfectly, but when the knob gets tightened, it throws off vertical *and* horizontal alignment.

 

Did I get a bunk telescope? Is this just a case of bad build quality on the exact telescope I received? Is this a bad model? Am I doing something wrong?

 

Thanks again for your advice!

[NGC 1502]

You have my sympathy…..and any reply will be difficult for you to take.

Sounds like you’ve tightened every nut & bolt, but maybe worth another check. The main problem is likely to be that the mount is way to flimsy to do its job. That’s a very common problem when buying from sellers who haven’t the first clue about their products.

It might help a bit if the tripod is at a lower setting. Lower should make it a bit more stable at the expense of having to sit or squat to look into the eyepiece.

So what to do?  Can you get a refund, and if you do how much are you willing to spend on a replacement?  The answer to that will allow folks on here to advise.

Hoping you find a solution which could lead you into a fine hobby.

Ed.

[SoulRebel]

Hi Ed,

Thank you for the reply. The telescope cannot be returned as it was purchased too long ago.

Having sunk about $150-200 into this telescope and all other accessories, I really don't know what to do. Is there a telescope in the $200 range that can be somewhat more reliable? Or am I looking at $500 or more for a telescope that makes viewing the planets, moon, and hopefully other astronomical items a bit less miserable? I hate to think I wasted all this money on a lemon, but WOW this has been a bad experience.

I also have another oddity that just occurred. I was outside for the last 45 minutes or so and spent all that time trying to view Saturn (I did confirm that the dot I was looking at was indeed Saturn). I managed, after an excruciating sighting in process, to see a white-ish circle through the eyepiece. However...in the middle of the circle was a three-pronged symbol. Basically, think the Mercedes logo. I'm dumbfounded of course, until I realize its the exact shape of the internal component of the telescope (I don't know the proper term). How is that visible? Is it some sort of reflection? When I zoom in on a regular object (corner of a house, street light, etc.), it the three prongs are not visible. But when I view a very faraway object, there it is?

 

 

 

[Stu]

2 hours ago, SoulRebel said:

also have another oddity that just occurred. I was outside for the last 45 minutes or so and spent all that time trying to view Saturn (I did confirm that the dot I was looking at was indeed Saturn). I managed, after an excruciating sighting in process, to see a white-ish circle through the eyepiece. However...in the middle of the circle was a three-pronged symbol. Basically, think the Mercedes logo. I'm dumbfounded of course, until I realize it’s the exact shape of the internal component of the telescope (I don't know the proper term). How is that visible? Is it some sort of reflection? When I zoom in on a regular object (corner of a house, street light, etc.), it the three prongs are not visible. But when I view a very faraway object, there it is?

This is all perfectly normal, and something that happens with any Newtonian type scope which has a secondary spider; they can be one, two, three or four vanes and the pattern you see depends on the arrangement.

If you are seeing three prongs then I suspect that you still are not at focus. A distant object like Saturn is in focus when at its smallest and a three vane slide should show six spikes when it is a focus. Try on a bright star and you should see this effect. There is some info at this link and the two images show what you get with various arrangements; yours could look like the right hand image in both pics.

https://www.findlight.net/blog/diffraction-spikes/

 

[Stu]

2 hours ago, SoulRebel said:

Having sunk about $150-200 into this telescope and all other accessories, I really don't know what to do. Is there a telescope in the $200 range that can be somewhat more reliable? Or am I looking at $500 or more for a telescope that makes viewing the planets, moon, and hopefully other astronomical items a bit less miserable? I hate to think I wasted all this money on a lemon, but WOW this has been a bad experience.

Starter scopes can be fine optically but supplied with very poor mounts which makes them very hard to use. I suspect that putting more money into this one will improve it slightly but not change the fundamentals. I’m sure you have tried everything there is to try, I could only suggest finding a setting to the az tension where you can still move it without having to tighten or loosen it, that way you won’t change the vertical position each time.

In terms of other scopes, one which is quite economical but optically very good and with a stable mount is this one:

https://shop.astronomerswithoutborders.org/collections/telescopes/products/awb-onesky-reflector-telescope

It is a table top dobsonian so does need to go on something solid to get it to a good height, but they are very capable scopes. I have used the equivalent from Skywatcher, the Heritage 130p and it performs very well. Worth considering.

[Elp]

It's usually a rookie mistake going for a generic and cheap setup. Yours is similar to an early National Geographic Newtonian I had, absolute junk, didn't see anything through it at all. The tripod might as well go in the bin too, those type of aluminium extruded tripods are not fit for purpose.

If you do want to persevere though, try weighing the tripod down by hanging heavy stuff off of it like loaded bags. Using a telescope, once on target and in focus you shouldn't touch it or the eyepiece, that's how you use them.

The movement of the mount, you can try looking for any play, and if there is any movement and you've got the space for it you can try packing with more washers to tighten it all up.

 

[Peter Drew]

The good news is that things can only get better!  Most of us have gone through these issues to some extent in the beginning and the advice is to not invest further money towards this telescope.  With practise, using the telescope will become a little easier, it will never be a satisfying experience though it will stand you in good stead eventually with a better one.  Almost any Dobsonian mounted model will alleviate most of your frustrations.  Keep at it, it will be worth the effort.      🙂 

[Cosmic Geoff]

Sadly I feel your only recourse is to invest in a better telescope with a more stable mount.  76mm Newtonian reflectors are only sold as an ultra-cheap beginner telescope.  A table-top Dobsonian as suggested by Stu would give the best performance per dollar spent. 

Astronomy is not a cheap hobby and the ultra-cheap beginner telescopes offered by various brands are often not worth having.

[Bivanus]

Hello @SoulRebel, personal opinion is that a refractor would make a good starter scope. The prices may vary depending on location, but something like this would do: Sky-Watcher Evostar-90/660 AZ Pronto | First Light Optics

Also, like @Cosmic Geoffmentions, a tabletop Dobsonian is also a good way to start, something like this: Sky-Watcher Heritage-150P Flextube Tabletop Dobsonian | First Light Optics

Please note that you can also go a bit cheaper like the Sky Watcher StarTravel 80mm or the Heritage 130P or smaller, but I think you already got a lesson in the first rule of astronomy: what you pay is what you get. 

[jhonson]

The red-dot sight can be unreliable; a sturdier one might help. For the shaky image, ensure the tripod is stable and all connections are tight. The alignment issue when tightening might be due to loose parts..

[RT65CB-SWL]

Hi @SoulRebel [and daughter] and welcome to SGL. 

I used to have a similar ‘scope to the you linked, but made by Tasco. I was never a fan of the tripod and ‘U’ yoke mount that was supplied and I gave it away to a neighbour.

If it is new, then maybe worth trying to get a refund and purchasing a ‘Dobsonian’ reflector in its place. It may cost a bit more, but it will be somewhat stable. A good entry level would be a 6-8” one. Also have look here… https://www.firstlightoptics.com/beginner-telescopes.html 

 

Edited Thursday at 17:51 by RT65CB-SWL

[Bivanus]

Also, it would be useful to know a location, I naw saw you give prices in $ so maybe on the other side of the pond. Agenda Astro has some similar beginer scopes and some nice introductory articles https://agenaastro.com/articles/guides/choosing-the-best-telescope-for-beginners.html

I know what I would buy, thou it's definitely outside of the 200$ area 

https://agenaastro.com/takahashi-starbase-80-achromatic-telescope-with-tripod.html

EDIT: Here's an article about it , by the way it's not made by THE Takahashi.

 https://www.skyatnightmagazine.com/reviews/telescopes/starbase-80-refractor-mount

Edited Thursday at 13:21 by Bivanus

[Xilman]

You may be able to sell your scope on eBay or the like. Do not expect to get much of your initial money back.

I had essentially the same experience you are having when I first started many years ago. I then found that a decent pair of binoculars was far more useful in practice though, of course, they will not show fine detail on the planets. The moon is spectacular in 10x50 binoculars. Many Messier objects are accessible, as are Milky Way star clouds. If you want to get into scientific observations, many people use only binoculars to estimate the brightness of variable stars.

 

[SoulRebel]

Hi all,

Wow, thank you so much for the responses. It feels great to know I'm not alone and (likely) not an idiot and simply messing something up.

Is something like this a good one? 

NexStar 4SE Computerized Telescope | Celestron

Thank you for suggestions, I certainly don't want to exceed this one above in price.

[Martyn87]

EDIT: Apologies, it's early and I didn't look properly at the scope in the link. It's a Maksutov Cassegrain which I know very little about, so ignore my previous response! 

Had you thought about looking at the used market? As an example, I picked up a 6" SCT on an AltAz mount for £260 which retails at around £660 online. There are definitely some bargains to be had. 

Edited Friday at 07:14 by Martyn87

[Astronomist]

If you don't mind a bit more bulk/ weight, you could look at one of these (or similar) for substantially less money: StellaLyra 8" f/6 Dobsonian | First Light Optics.  It would put out much better views than the nextar due to its greater aperture, and although it doesn't have computer control and automatic tracking it should be very stable and easy to aim.

Obviously if size and ease of transport is a factor perhaps these 'full size' (as opposed to tabletop) dobsonians are not for you.

[Damo1965]

As I'm sure you are now aware from the various replies you are being let down by the mount and tripod more than anything. These are vital parts of the system and makers give you the cheapest they can.

I would echo the advice about lowering the tripod as much as possible (good for a five-year-old) as well as hanging a weight from the centre of the tripod. I faced similar issues with my first scope - bought from a charity shop (goodwill) - and something I found that worked was to add strips of plywood to the tripod legs - zip tied in place. It's all about getting the weight onto the lowest point with the highest density to minimise vibrations.

Rather than just buying something new - if you are handy in the workshop then a simple Dobsonian mount might be the way to go - here's one I made out of 18mm ply. 

[AstroMuni]

On 29/08/2024 at 05:28, SoulRebel said:

The "red-dot reflex sight" is kind of a joke or I'm using it very wrong. I aim the telescope at a faraway point and center the image through the eyepiece; then I adjust the knobs on the laser so the red dot is exactly where the telescope's eyepiece is showing. However, the slightest movement of the telescope, etc., can completely throw off the red dot sight, as its SO loosely connected to the telescope. Surely something like this is not normal?  Would the solution be a better red dot reflex site that connects w/ more stability? Recommendations?

Looking at your scope on Amazon the Red dot finder seems to be precariously mounted. So if it can be detached from the 'fin' then try attaching it with double sided tape to the tube. The other option is to purchase a Telrad or Rigel finder. I had similar problems when I started on this journey but after buying a Telrad it was so easy.

https://www.firstlightoptics.com/finders/telrad-finder-astronomy.html

https://www.firstlightoptics.com/finders/rigel-quikfinder-compact-reflex-sight.html

 

Edited Friday at 09:47 by AstroMuni

[RT65CB-SWL]

21 hours ago, SoulRebel said:

Hi all,

Wow, thank you so much for the responses. It feels great to know I'm not alone and (likely) not an idiot and simply messing something up.

Is something like this a good one? 

NexStar 4SE Computerized Telescope | Celestron

Thank you for suggestions, I certainly don't want to exceed this one above in price.

@SoulRebel a Maksutov or SCT is going to be compact, though there are a few downsides…
* It will have narrow field of view.
* They are notorious dew magnets. A dew shield is a must have accessory.
* It will possibly ‘eat’ batteries. You will need a power tank or leisure battery. Alkaline batteries do not last long when used in the cold. Rechargeable ‘AA’, ‘C’, ‘D’ battery cells do not give 1.5volts output.
* It can be used for Astro-imaging, but you will need long exposures. OK for lunar, solar (see lower down) and bright planets, not so for deep sky! - imaging the Sun/Sol will require a full aperture solar filter. These can be made from a sheet of safety solar film and card if you are a DIY’er. Alternatives are ready made using similar material or glass (most expensive).

The upsides of any Maksutov or SCT are…
* Outstanding  lunar and planetary views.
* Hardly require collimation.
* Image will be right way up but left & right (east-west) are reversed.
* The size of the one you linked is just about aircraft carry-on compatible if transporting in a padded backpack/rucksack. The mount and tripod will need to transported in the suitcase. If using any type of rechargeable batteries or power bank for power, [ie Li-Ion, Li-Po, Ni-Cd, Ni-MH, lead-acid, etc], must be declared at check-in as part of your carry-on allowance and must not be placed/transported in the aircraft hold under any circumstances.

Excuse the asterisks. I was using my iPhone and unable to get the ‘bullet point’ markers!
 

Edited Friday at 22:52 by RT65CB-SWL

[Cosmic Geoff]

9 hours ago, SoulRebel said:

Is something like this a good one? 

NexStar 4SE Computerized Telescope | Celestron

It's a good instrument with an easy to use GoTo mount, but for the same cost (new) there are many other options. depending on what feature you want to prioritize: GoTo mount, aperture, or portability.

[dweller25]

4 hours ago, Damo1965 said:

As I'm sure you are now aware from the various replies you are being let down by the mount and tripod more than anything. These are vital parts of the system and makers give you the cheapest they can.

I would echo the advice about lowering the tripod as much as possible (good for a five-year-old) as well as hanging a weight from the centre of the tripod. I faced similar issues with my first scope - bought from a charity shop (goodwill) - and something I found that worked was to add strips of plywood to the tripod legs - zip tied in place. It's all about getting the weight onto the lowest point with the highest density to minimise vibrations.

Rather than just buying something new - if you are handy in the workshop then a simple Dobsonian mount might be the way to go - here's one I made out of 18mm ply. 

Hello @SoulRebel, this is very good advice, particularly the section about building a dobsonian base and welcome to SGL 👍

Edited Friday at 12:38 by dweller25

[Stu_53N_002W]

I’m a bit of an expert in matters of this nature. My first telescope was little used and quickly became unsuitable for whatever needs I thought I had for it. After being overwhelmed by too many accessories in attempt to remedy my perceived shortcomings of what I thought it had. I bought another totally unsuitable telescope. That first telescope has long gone. The replacement, although unsuitable is actually my favourite. It’s also has company. Several OTAs (Optical Tube Assemblies), mounts and tripods. None perfect and some mistakes. Each has taught me something. Turns out there’s a lot to learn. That I don’t mind, it’s the expense that can be hard to take.

A telescope is rarely complete and optional extras may start to show weakness and thus prompt upgrade paths leaving some accessories redundant. This leapfrog process has a cascading effect on the piggy bank funds.

The stars are quite wonderful and the faint whisper of Andromeda, when seen, a challenge well done.

So I mentioned a totally unsuitable favourite, it’s a 12” dobsonian. Big but dobsonians are so easy to point. Andromeda was seen using a pair of 25x70 binoculars. So portable but do benefit from a tripod mount bracket and tripod or monopod. Or a bean bag on a shoulder.

Anyway, I do natter on a bit but found the question so interesting that I had to buy myself one of these 76/700 telescopes and also a 24 hour clock (1 full rotation per day).

Enjoy the hobby, spend wisely and clear skies 😊