How best to improve planetary photography?

[OptymsticAlpaca]

I am currently using a Stellalyra 200mm Dobsonian,  a 2x Barlow, and a Canon 700D DSLR camera. I then use PIPP and Autostackert to process. I would really appreciate any help or advice to produce better images, as I can't figure out what the weakest link is. 

I have attached my best Jupiter photo, to take it I recorded a video on the DSLR of the planet drifting across the frame. I know this isn't ideal, but I don't have a tracking mount(yet, I really want one but I need to save and research...).  The frame rate of the camera is not great, and neither is the video quality. Seeing was good, but in the raw video  only the faintest weather bands were visible, if you look closely enough. 

 

Thanks, 

Owen

 

 

Edited February 18 by OptymsticAlpaca
bnp to jpeg

[Owmuchonomy]

Hi Owen, note that we can't view a .bmp file unless we download it.  JPEG or PNG is ok. For planetary imaging it's best to have lots of focal length, a high frame rate planetary camera and a laptop capable of handling the data capture.  A DSLR is not ideal unless it has video crop mode to reduce the capture window down to a manageable size (640x480).  Also, the pixel size tends to be a bit too large.  You need metres of focal length if possible (my SCT is imaging at nearly 5 metres fl).  If you look on YouTube for Chris Go's presentations on planetary imaging you will get the full picture.

Edited February 18 by Owmuchonomy

[Kon]

Your 8" should be able to give you some very good planetary images. I have been using a manual 8" with a planetary camera. I started with a DSLR and I never got anything decent untill I moved to a dedicated planetary camera. There are a few things to consider from my experience: a planetary camera will be better and you can get some really good ones on the second hand market for less than £180. The high frame rate will allow you to capture thousands of images and select the best for stacking. The seeing is another factor. Although the sky might look nice and clear, the overhead Jetstream can cause havoc. Finally, try get as best collimation as you can.

Processing is another thing to consider and there is plenty of help here once you have tackled the imaging part.

Planets are past their best at the moment but you can practice on the moon.

[vlaiv]

Yes, greatest improvement will come from using dedicated planetary camera.

These two images were taken roughly month apart - both with 5" newtonian, first one with modified web cam (Logitech C270 with removed front lens) and second with proper planetary camera (although USB 2.0).

Almost all conditions, including my planetary imaging ability were the same - only difference was with the camera model used.

Edited February 18 by vlaiv

[Cornelius Varley]

1 hour ago, Owmuchonomy said:

 JPEG or TIF is ok.

Tiff isn't ok, only jpeg or png files can be displayed in the browser.

[vlaiv]

4 minutes ago, Cornelius Varley said:

Tiff isn't ok, only jpeg or png files can be displayed in the browser.

webp?

[Owmuchonomy]

39 minutes ago, Cornelius Varley said:

Tiff isn't ok, only jpeg or png files can be displayed in the browser.

Doh! Edited.

[OptymsticAlpaca]

8 hours ago, Owmuchonomy said:

Hi Owen, note that we can't view a .bmp file unless we download it.  JPEG or PNG is ok. For planetary imaging it's best to have lots of focal length, a high frame rate planetary camera and a laptop capable of handling the data capture.  A DSLR is not ideal unless it has video crop mode to reduce the capture window down to a manageable size (640x480).  Also, the pixel size tends to be a bit too large.  You need metres of focal length if possible (my SCT is imaging at nearly 5 metres fl).  If you look on YouTube for Chris Go's presentations on planetary imaging you will get the full picture.

Hi Owmuchonomy,

Thanks for your reply!! I have now changed it to JPEG. I have been looking at planetary cameras for a while, I was hoping that something slightly cheaper and easier might be improved first. though... I've seen a little bit of  Chris Go's presentation a while ago, but I'll be sure to give it another watch. 

 

[GTom]

DSLR, even an ILC with proper high bitrate video capabilities is problematic for planetary work. I second Vlaiv regarding a planetary camera.

[OptymsticAlpaca]

Seems everyone is in agreement, and my fear is confirmed.... 

Are there any risks with a second hand planetary camera? Almost everyone in this hobby I've interacted with so far has been absolutely lovely, and very helpful, but I do worry about a lack of support/stability that buying second hand might bring. 

Another thing I wouldn't mind picking someone's brain over:

Mono or colour? 

I know that mono gives better image quality, but colour is easier to deal with- but do people think the tradeoff is worth it? I think I would prefer a colour cam for the ease of use, but I don't want to limit myself too much because of this.

 

Thank you all so much for your replies, they are incredibly helpful.

[OptymsticAlpaca]

8 hours ago, vlaiv said:

Yes, greatest improvement will come from using dedicated planetary camera.

These two images were taken roughly month apart - both with 5" newtonian, first one with modified web cam (Logitech C270 with removed front lens) and second with proper planetary camera (although USB 2.0).

Almost all conditions, including my planetary imaging ability were the same - only difference was with the camera model used.

The improvement is amazing, I would love to get results like yours one day!!!! I will definitely look more into planetary cameras, at the peril of my wallet....

[vlaiv]

3 minutes ago, OptymsticAlpaca said:

Mono or colour? 

I think that colour is much more simple to use because you don't need filters / filter wheels and so on, and there is very little difference, if any, in the end result (thanks to some clever software tricks).

5 minutes ago, OptymsticAlpaca said:

Are there any risks with a second hand planetary camera?

I'm not sure what your budget is, but excellent planetary camera is not that expensive - have a look at this one:

https://www.firstlightoptics.com/zwo-cameras/zwo-asi224mc-usb-3-colour-camera.html

If you can get something like that second hand - even better. I would not mind using second hand planetary camera if in good working order - as long as it is USB 3.0 and is supported with drivers at the moment (the example I gave above was captured with QHYIIL color camera - which is only USB 2.0 and I'm not sure one can find good drivers for that model any more, so I would not get it second hand).

[bosun21]

Definitely go for a designed planetary camera. I would also go for a OSC camera simply for the reason that it's both easier and quicker to complete the capture process. I used a 585MC which can be used for both planetary and astrophotography/EAA. I have now just acquired a 462MC for planetary due to its better sensitivity in IR. Buying secondhand on a forum such as this is much safer than other sites. The 462MC I bought on this forum was in excellent condition and working perfectly. The image you posted was it put through any software such as Registax for final sharpening and denoising?

[Kon]

9 hours ago, OptymsticAlpaca said:

Are there any risks with a second hand planetary camera? Almost everyone in this hobby I've interacted with so far has been absolutely lovely, and very helpful, but I do worry about a lack of support/stability that buying second hand might bring. 

Another thing I wouldn't mind picking someone's brain over:

Mono or colour? 

 

I have got all my cameras second hand either from here, ABS or FB second hand telescope sites. (I bought my 12" GOTO from FB recently). You can get some great bargains. No issues at all. There is  a nice 462c on ABS for £175 at the moment. It is an obsolete model as of last year but still a fantastic camera.

It depends what you are into in regards to imaging. As Ian said, the 462c is a nice camera due to its high sensitivity in IR.

With manual tracking forget the mono camera for RGB work as by the time you do your captures even with derotation it will be a mess. A mono camera is fantastic if you are into UV imaging. I got my 462m just for Venus.

The first image is with my DSLR (3 years ago) when I started like you and the second with a 462c in 2023, and one of my best Venus with the 462m last year (false colours with IR and UV filters). Have a look at the planetary imaging forum and see what similar equipment others are using but seeing will also affect quality. In 2023, I got less than 5 decent Jupiter captures due to the jetstream. The Venus below was captured under the best seeing I ever had in UK (no atmospheric disturbance at all). I also do a lot of ISS imaging with my 8" and I am pulling excellent details. As I said earlier, with your 8" you should be able to push it to its limits even been manual; it just takes a lot of patience and experimentation. You will also get a lot of excellent advice if you post in the imaging forum which can help with captures settings and post processing. I keep tweaking things every so often.

 

[OptymsticAlpaca]

21 hours ago, vlaiv said:

I think that colour is much more simple to use because you don't need filters / filter wheels and so on, and there is very little difference, if any, in the end result (thanks to some clever software tricks).

I'm not sure what your budget is, but excellent planetary camera is not that expensive - have a look at this one:

https://www.firstlightoptics.com/zwo-cameras/zwo-asi224mc-usb-3-colour-camera.html

If you can get something like that second hand - even better. I would not mind using second hand planetary camera if in good working order - as long as it is USB 3.0 and is supported with drivers at the moment (the example I gave above was captured with QHYIIL color camera - which is only USB 2.0 and I'm not sure one can find good drivers for that model any more, so I would not get it second hand).

That looks like a very good option. I will look into them more, and hopefully I can try and get one.

Thank you!!

[OptymsticAlpaca]

20 hours ago, bosun21 said:

Definitely go for a designed planetary camera. I would also go for a OSC camera simply for the reason that it's both easier and quicker to complete the capture process. I used a 585MC which can be used for both planetary and astrophotography/EAA. I have now just acquired a 462MC for planetary due to its better sensitivity in IR. Buying secondhand on a forum such as this is much safer than other sites. The 462MC I bought on this forum was in excellent condition and working perfectly. The image you posted was it put through any software such as Registax for final sharpening and denoising?

Used registax, tried lots of different things, and followed tutorials and guides of course. I think it was a little bit of a case of garbage in, garbage out, as my adjustments didn't improve the image loads. My raw video is very bad, the turbulence is awful. I couldn't believe I got something even that good out of it.

[OptymsticAlpaca]

11 hours ago, Kon said:

 

The first image is with my DSLR (3 years ago) when I started like you and the second with a 462c in 2023, and one of my best Venus with the 462m last year (false colours with IR and UV filters). Have a look at the planetary imaging forum and see what similar equipment others are using but seeing will also affect quality. 

What size scope are you using for yours now?  The 12 inch? I'd also like to ask about what peoples thoughts are on capture method. I don't have a tracking mount, so my process so far has been record the planet as it drifts across the FOV, then move the telescope and let it drift again, up until around 3 minutes when rotation starts becoming an issue. I've tried doing this as one continuous video, and I've tried it as multiple shorter videos that I put into PIPP(I think..) as a batch. 

 

Also, your images are fantastic! I love your Venus, and the Jupiter improvement does bring me some hope

[Kon]

44 minutes ago, OptymsticAlpaca said:

What size scope are you using for yours now?  The 12 inch? I'd also like to ask about what peoples thoughts are on capture method. I don't have a tracking mount, so my process so far has been record the planet as it drifts across the FOV, then move the telescope and let it drift again, up until around 3 minutes when rotation starts becoming an issue. I've tried doing this as one continuous video, and I've tried it as multiple shorter videos that I put into PIPP(I think..) as a batch. 

 

Also, your images are fantastic! I love your Venus, and the Jupiter improvement does bring me some hope

The above images are all with my 8". The 12" is a new purchase and has only been out twice due to the lovely weather we are having.

Have a look at the planetary imaging competition where I have posted some of my  captures with the 8".

https://stargazerslounge.com/topic/415170-sgl-2023-challenge-10-planets-and-special-events/

Or look at the planetary imaging section.

In terms of capture, I do exactly the same, record while it's drifting but I use a small ROI of 640x480 but with the planetary camera I end up with 15000-20000 frames to select from . I used to do 3 mins but I have recently moved to 8x90s and combine several captures in winjupos. You can't combine in pipp as the rotation will smear the details. I then sharpen the image in Astrosurface.

If funds are tight to get a planetary camera, then a mobile might be a better alternative. @PeterStudzhas posted some excellent Jupiter and Venus images using a mobile and a manual 8". Have a look at the smartphone imaging section.

https://stargazerslounge.com/topic/417739-jupiter-with-iphone/

Another one has done the ISS:

https://stargazerslounge.com/topic/401962-iss-modules-with-smartphone-and-telescope/#comment-4308010

 

 

Finally, worth getting a RACI, it will save your back with the manual tracking.

[OptymsticAlpaca]

On 19/02/2024 at 21:08, Kon said:

The above images are all with my 8". The 12" is a new purchase and has only been out twice due to the lovely weather we are having.

Have a look at the planetary imaging competition where I have posted some of my  captures with the 8".

https://stargazerslounge.com/topic/415170-sgl-2023-challenge-10-planets-and-special-events/

Or look at the planetary imaging section.

In terms of capture, I do exactly the same, record while it's drifting but I use a small ROI of 640x480 but with the planetary camera I end up with 15000-20000 frames to select from . I used to do 3 mins but I have recently moved to 8x90s and combine several captures in winjupos. You can't combine in pipp as the rotation will smear the details. I then sharpen the image in Astrosurface.

If funds are tight to get a planetary camera, then a mobile might be a better alternative. @PeterStudzhas posted some excellent Jupiter and Venus images using a mobile and a manual 8". Have a look at the smartphone imaging section.

https://stargazerslounge.com/topic/417739-jupiter-with-iphone/

Another one has done the ISS:

https://stargazerslounge.com/topic/401962-iss-modules-with-smartphone-and-telescope/#comment-4308010

 

 

Finally, worth getting a RACI, it will save your back with the manual tracking.

Already have a RACI thankfully!! The thing is a lifesaver.

I think I’d definitely like to try a planetary camera. It’s not cheap, but it will last a long time, and I think that if it worked out with my current gear, it would be worth it.

My biggest concern now though is the drift and the lack of tracking, and the effect of the small field of view. (Apologies if my terminology is wrong, I’m still fairly new here) Currently, using a DSLR, I need to use a 2x Barlow to reach focus. This obviously reduces fov, and Jupiter drifts across the frame quite quickly. 
 

I really don’t like the look of the size of the planet on Stellarium, with all the details of telescope, chip, and Barlow(hopefully) correctly inputted. Jupiter drifts across the frame in about 25 seconds, and I worry this isn’t long enough to collect enough data.

Thanks for all your replies, this community is the best.

[vlaiv]

7 minutes ago, OptymsticAlpaca said:

I really don’t like the look of the size of the planet on Stellarium, with all the details of telescope, chip, and Barlow(hopefully) correctly inputted. Jupiter drifts across the frame in about 25 seconds, and I worry this isn’t long enough to collect enough data.

You can image Jupiter with 3-4 minute imaging runs.

If the planet drifts thru the FOV in 25 seconds - you'll need to move scope couple times to re acquire it. This will probably be hard at first - but I'm guessing that you'll get the hang of it.

You can use special software to discard frames where the planet is outside the FOV and you are in process of putting it back on sensor.

Alternative is to make DIY dob platform and have tracking for up to hour without need to manually move the scope.