Import VAT on Item Repaired in the US

[geoflewis]

1 minute ago, malc-c said:

I'm wondering if the original concept was that AP never envisaged the device lasting longer than the life of the battery

Well it's a $2 battery easily sourced in the USA, just seems not so in the UK. It's crazy that they do exist in the UK, but so far as my extensive research showed ONLY for onward supply to OEM manufacturers for their products. I have family and friends in USA, one of whom works for UPS, so I thought I'd get him to ship some to me. He was willing but fell at the first hurdle on completing the paperwork, as not allowed for air freight without special packaging, hence the £100 shipping cost.....

[malc-c]

RS, digikey, all supply to the public.  The battery can also be found on e-bay  CR2430 is not a rare battery.

[Carbon Brush]

I have been following this thread with interest and was going to offer to solder a replacement - then read @malc-c had made the offer.

A bit of background to help others...

Catalogue distributors like RS, Farnell don't have particularly good technical support. But they are better than many 'catalogue' distributors.
Often the people you contact don't understand 'near enough' or 'almost' or 'similar'. They can only work with exact part numbers.
A specialist distributor like Allbateries do understand cells and batteries. They can offer tagging/wiring services and more.
But quite honestly an enquiry for one cell it isn't worth picking up the phone.

Carriers have varying rules about shipping lithium cells/batteries.
As a general rule if it is in a holder in equipment that is OK. But you cannot ship loose. Though some say a blanket NO NO.
So you put a cell in a cheap holder and it falls out in transit. No worry!
You put a cell in a poly bag surrounded by bubble wrap and that is not allowed.
In terms of hazard, coins cells are quite safe unless ingested. You can knock a nail through them to short circuit. In a fire they explode a little.
Now cells like those that power your phone or drill are something different.

Unfortunately many carriers do not understand and shippers tell lies.
I once had a large shipment refused because it contained one coin cell inside equipment.
Not long after I saw two HUGE lithium packs (Segway type scooter size) that were not air transport approved.
The first was faulty on arrival, the second was a replacement.
These were shipped from China to UK, by air freight.
When you have seen the stupidy (or lies) from some people trying to ship, you can appreciate why carriers err on the side of caution.

The CR series cells have an easy naming convention, used across manufacturers.
A CR2032 means it is 20mm diameter and 3.2mm thick. A CR2450 is 24mm dia and 5mm thick. you get the idea.
They are all 3V cells it is the capacity (milliamps x hours) that varies.
Given these are used at low current to retain a real time clock, or a memory chip, capacity is not that important.
OK a big cell lasts 10 years and a small cell only 3.

A suffix on the end of the part number is used to denote a tagged version.
Tags can be for wires, or PCB pins and can be in different orientations.
The suffix is manufacturer dependent.

If you buy a tagged cell, you can easily solder on your own wires.
You have to be quite clumsy to heat the cell enough to do damage.
If you buy an untagged cell, then buy a holder as you need good soldering skills to add a wire without overheating.

This leads on to the question of why was the cell in a PCB holder? Or on wire leads? Or soldered on the PCB?
It is a decision taken by a manufacturer for several reasons.

If a cell is soldered to a PCB, replacement is beyond the skill of a lot of users. Maybe the equipment is going to have a short life so cell replacement is not likely.

If a cell is in a PCB holder, there is risk of it popping out if the equipment gets dropped.
There is also the question of long term contact tarnishing - a big subject and it happens a lot.

However, on a PCB, if the cell leaks for any reason, you can corrode and wreck the PCB.
If a cell is on wires, the equipment manufacturer can place the cell out of harms way should it leak. The plastic sleeve can retain the spill.

Replacing a cell on the wire + plug is an easy unplug, not desolder.
If you can't buy the exact cell locally, then anything near enough with tags and solder/sleeve yourself, keeping the old plug/lead is an easy repair.

HTH, David.

[malc-c]

Excellent explanation David - and even learnt something, wasn't aware the numbering related to diameter and thickness - thought it was more to do with capacity or other characteristics such as tagged, PCB pin arrangement etc.

I guess it boils down to Geoff's confidence to remove the hood and extract the battery and then swap the leads over to a new replacement which can easily be obtained

[geoflewis]

32 minutes ago, Carbon Brush said:

I have been following this thread with interest and was going to offer to solder a replacement - then read @malc-c had made the offer.

A bit of background to help others...

Catalogue distributors like RS, Farnell don't have particularly good technical support. But they are better than many 'catalogue' distributors.
Often the people you contact don't understand 'near enough' or 'almost' or 'similar'. They can only work with exact part numbers.
A specialist distributor like Allbateries do understand cells and batteries. They can offer tagging/wiring services and more.
But quite honestly an enquiry for one cell it isn't worth picking up the phone.

Carriers have varying rules about shipping lithium cells/batteries.
As a general rule if it is in a holder in equipment that is OK. But you cannot ship loose. Though some say a blanket NO NO.
So you put a cell in a cheap holder and it falls out in transit. No worry!
You put a cell in a poly bag surrounded by bubble wrap and that is not allowed.
In terms of hazard, coins cells are quite safe unless ingested. You can knock a nail through them to short circuit. In a fire they explode a little.
Now cells like those that power your phone or drill are something different.

Unfortunately many carriers do not understand and shippers tell lies.
I once had a large shipment refused because it contained one coin cell inside equipment.
Not long after I saw two HUGE lithium packs (Segway type scooter size) that were not air transport approved.
The first was faulty on arrival, the second was a replacement.
These were shipped from China to UK, by air freight.
When you have seen the stupidy (or lies) from some people trying to ship, you can appreciate why carriers err on the side of caution.

The CR series cells have an easy naming convention, used across manufacturers.
A CR2032 means it is 20mm diameter and 3.2mm thick. A CR2450 is 24mm dia and 5mm thick. you get the idea.
They are all 3V cells it is the capacity (milliamps x hours) that varies.
Given these are used at low current to retain a real time clock, or a memory chip, capacity is not that important.
OK a big cell lasts 10 years and a small cell only 3.

A suffix on the end of the part number is used to denote a tagged version.
Tags can be for wires, or PCB pins and can be in different orientations.
The suffix is manufacturer dependent.

If you buy a tagged cell, you can easily solder on your own wires.
You have to be quite clumsy to heat the cell enough to do damage.
If you buy an untagged cell, then buy a holder as you need good soldering skills to add a wire without overheating.

This leads on to the question of why was the cell in a PCB holder? Or on wire leads? Or soldered on the PCB?
It is a decision taken by a manufacturer for several reasons.

If a cell is soldered to a PCB, replacement is beyond the skill of a lot of users. Maybe the equipment is going to have a short life so cell replacement is not likely.

If a cell is in a PCB holder, there is risk of it popping out if the equipment gets dropped.
There is also the question of long term contact tarnishing - a big subject and it happens a lot.

However, on a PCB, if the cell leaks for any reason, you can corrode and wreck the PCB.
If a cell is on wires, the equipment manufacturer can place the cell out of harms way should it leak. The plastic sleeve can retain the spill.

Replacing a cell on the wire + plug is an easy unplug, not desolder.
If you can't buy the exact cell locally, then anything near enough with tags and solder/sleeve yourself, keeping the old plug/lead is an easy repair.

HTH, David.

As @malc-c said, what a great explanation, wish I knew that earlier this year, but is still a keeper for future reference..

22 minutes ago, malc-c said:

I guess it boils down to Geoff's confidence to remove the hood and extract the battery and then swap the leads over to a new replacement which can easily be obtained

Actually it's not me, but @orly_andicothat needs one now, as I got mine fixed by Astro-Physics during my trip to USA back in May, at not inconsiderable cost, as I just couldn't find a solution in the UK that I was comfortable with. Hopefully there's enough info and options here for @orly_andico to decide what to do.

[LandyJon]

1 hour ago, Carbon Brush said:

 The CR series cells have an easy naming convention, used across manufacturers.

A CR2032 means it is 20mm diameter and 3.2mm thick. A CR2450 is 24mm dia and 5mm thick. you get the idea.
They are all 3V cells it is the capacity (milliamps x hours) that varies.
Given these are used at low current to retain a real time clock, or a memory chip, capacity is not that important.
OK a big cell lasts 10 years and a small cell only 3.

I was just coming back to make this point I'd remembered, but reading through you beat me to it.

Yes, for the OP, any of those CR batteries would do the job, they're just different sizes to fit in different holders / watch backs etc.  Where space is limited or a specific size holder has been used.

If its just on the wire, the larger cell would last longer but on a several years timescale for the convenience if you can get a direct plug in replacement 2032 or 2025 for a few £ from RS it could be the solution.

Just googled and plenty 2032s with the straight tails or wired to a 2 pin plug, maybe an adapter available to the 4 pin or cut and solder.  If theres room in the casing theres even 2032 holders that once soldered to the 4 pin plug would make switching batteries easier next time.

[Carbon Brush]

2 hours ago, malc-c said:

thought it was more to do with capacity

Within a given case size, you do get small differences in claimed capacity between manufacturers.
When using these cell types in memory/clock backup it is only for very small current drain. So cell degradation (5-10 years) is almost as import as cell capacity in determining life.

Thank you to @malc-c and @geoflewis for your kind comments.

Sorry it was a long answer. But sometimes it has to be to provide the explanation.

An important note though is when we use these cell types in higher current applications. For example a car remote lock/unlock.
The transmitter takes quite a few milliamps (vs microamps or less for memory) so cell low internal resistance is important. Better to avoid the cheap stuff.
As the transmitter runs for a fraction of a second, it takes a lot of operations to eat into the cell capacity.
Another common failure is that the equipment manufacturer does not give a low battery warning either on the car or the fob.
I have a VW fob that I thought was working at reduced range one day. The next day it didn't work. Not the best warning!

HTH, David.

[orly_andico]

Thank you all for the extensive discussion. I ordered a couple from allbatteries - let's see where that goes. My challenge really was bonding the wires to the cell, that normally requires a spot welder (the cell is stainless steel and solder won't stick to it).  But since there's tagged cells, it should be trivial to transfer the pigtail to the new tagged cell.

Now if only I could find that pigtail as well... then I wouldn't need to desolder.  But it's hard to say from Geof's photo. It appears to be a 4-pin mini Berg (?) with 2 missing pins. Probably for keying. Anyway transferring the pigtail is trivial.

The AP handpad is a 15-20 year old "wonder" of engineering. The keypad backlight is a fat bundle of fibre optic strands that go from the PCB to the keypad. And when replacing that battery, you have to avoid folding or crushing those fibre optic strands. Just an extra headache. Then again, rumor has it the entire AP electronics package was outsourced to some military supplier. It certainly looks the part. Also telling that the new GTO CP4 controller with WiFi... implements the WiFi using a WiFi to serial bridge, it's the same old serial interface underneath.

Edited October 27, 2023 by orly_andico

[geoflewis]

1 hour ago, orly_andico said:

I ordered a couple from allbatteries - let's see where that goes.

Good luck and please do let us know how it works out.... 🤞

[orly_andico]

Incidentally, George also sent me the spec for the connector itself.

It is a Belden 51021-0400 Picoblade, which you can buy from Farnell etc. however without the wires... the crimp terminals are Molex 50079-8000

[orly_andico]

As an update: I got my order from AllBatteries today, Nov 6 (order made on Oct 27). Six working days. Now to replace the battery and reflash the database.. not looking forward to it.

[geoflewis]

Just now, orly_andico said:

As an update: I got my order from AllBatteries today, Nov 6 (order made on Oct 27). Six working days. Now to replace the battery and reflash the database.. not looking forward to it.

Good luck 🤞

[rrb24]

Orlando,

It's not difficult.  If you struggle soldering the pigtails after taking them off the old battery, just glue them to the new battery.  The old pigtails come off the old battery with a little bit of heat.  Help yourself with sharp knife.

I explained this to Geof last year also when he was looking for some.   The batteries are simple 3V button ones.  Amazon sells them by the dozens.

Roberto

[orly_andico]

I got the Renata batteries from AllBatteries with the tabs already spot-welded to the batteries (interestingly the battery in my handpad was not a Renata, and not made in Switzerland). I desoldered the pigtail from the existing battery and soldered it to the new battery, and also replaced the heat shrink tubing for good measure. As my spool of solder is currently missing in action, I had to use the remnant solder on the pigtail ends to attach the pigtail to the new battery. The result wasn’t great - I prefer secure solder joints with a strong mechanical connection - but it seems fine. The new heat shrink provides an extra level of mechanical stability.

Now to reflash the database…

Edited November 6, 2023 by orly_andico