ZWO AM5 Questions

[groberts]

As is the usual practice, I've spent hours reading various online posts and reviews on this mount, which mostly confirm my interest in pushing the button on the AM5.  I'm attracted by a number of features but mainly it's weight, as my current mount (SW AZ-EQ6 GT run via USB cable) is getting too heavy for my back & knees!  I can get it out the back door from where I do most of my astronomy but would also like to use it at the end of the garden from time-to-time for views on the north sky (see comment below).

Notwithstanding, the many useful reports from those already using the AM5, I have two outstanding questions, the answers to which will have a major bearing on my decision to proceed:

1. My main astronomy location is on the rear patio of my south facing house - which provides reasonalble views of the south sky but absolutely nothing of the north sky i.e. I cannot see Polaris as mu hose is in the way!  As a result I currently use the PHD2 drift aligment sucessfully to establish Polar Alignment, which thankfully produces a decent result.  Given this problem, is it also possible to estimate PA with the AM5 without seeing Polaris & if so how?  
2. I'd really like to operate the AM5 remotely and would also probably pair it with the ZWO ASIair Plus, which I currently have no first hand experience of.  What is the maximum reliable range this set-up can be operated in this way, preferrably from indoors?  As previously mentioned, I'd like to use the mount from the end of my garden in order to acces views of north sky objects (+ Polaris!), which would be up to 25-metres from a suitbale indoor operating location.  Is this too far?

Graham  

 

    

    

 

 

   

[Bluesboystig]

I don't have the AM5 but I know that the AsiAir can polar align even if you cannot see Polaris (all sky polar alignment I believe it's called). Youtube has a few tutorials on the subject which might come in handy (I'm planning on trying it myself). Re the range question, not sure about 25m, I have only tried 10m with the AsiAir mini and it was all good.

[Elp]

For even more lightness there's also the AM3, given the choice I ended up with an Ioptron hem15 as it was even lighter and smaller and cheaper.

The mini has the best WiFi propogation out of all the airs, I can reliably control it from an upstairs room separated by around 10-15M diagonal through brick. You'd struggle at the range you need, an option would be either run a ethernet cable (on the plus, pro and gen1 airs only) to your house or to a WiFi range extender, or WiFi connect to a WiFi extender which is paired to your home router. There's a small chance the WiFi range of your router might reach the air of which you can also connect to.

[Ouroboros]

I agree with @Bluesboystig’s comments.   I’ve never tried the All Sky alignment but I am aware it exists. As for distance …. 25m is out of the question in my experience. Even ten metres from inside the house is pushing it. It’s not so much that it won’t make contact with a tablet or phone, but you’ll see slower downloads and more drop outs. I own two ASIair Plus and neither achieve the working distance claimed by the manufacturers. As it happens that’s not too much problem for me.  In your circumstances I’d look at extending your home WiFi and control the ASI on your network. You’ll be able to be anywhere in your house then.

I don’t know what other equipment you have, but an ASIair limits you to equipment (ie cameras) from the ZWO range, apart that is from some DSLRs and other mounts.  

[Elp]

You can improve the plus WiFi propogation by taking the aerial off, plugging an SMA cable extension to the aerial socket, then plugging the aerial back onto the end of the cable. It improves the connection but I find it's very similar to a pro and good WiFi extender (not the enclosed box type extenders). The minis performance in comparison is considerably better, so I now have two of them and the plus is a backup.

[groberts]

Thank you all for the comments. 

Sounds like the PA will be OK but will need to ponder a while on the wifi issue - I'd really like to do away with long cables - except power. 

Graham 

[bdlbug]

I have both mounts that you mention, AZ EQ6 GT and recently bought a AM5. The AM5 is amazing, I also bought the carbon fibre tripod, you can lift mount and tripod with one hand, so will put very little strain on back and knees moving it around.
One point that I found out is that harmonic drives in general require to be driven (pulse guided) a lot more than the traditional GEM mounts, there is a really informative thread on the ZWO forum, the expert is Chen @w7ay that explains the way harmonic mounts need to be driven to get best guiding, but in summary you need to use PHD2 (or equiv) multi star guiding and use 0.5 - 1.5s exposures and use small guide pulses <100ms with very little aggression <40%. I have used this and achieved  <0.5" RMS regularly and sometimes down to 0.3" RMS.  A colleague in our astronomy club put a C11 on his AM5 and got guiding of 0.5"  RMS.

Been thinking about your connectivity - so you will have power at the bottom of your garden, as in mains power ?
If you do the perhaps a Wireless Ethernet bridge system would be very effective that would connect via the ASIair ethernet port and link into your home network so you can connect to the ASIair anywhere in you house where you have your home network..  This is an Amazon link - may give you some ideas as to how this may work.

https://amzn.eu/d/hOsyCdC

 

Bryan

 

[groberts]

Thank;s  Bryan, that's helpful - do you run ASIair too?

Unfortunately, I do not have power at the end of the garden but it is the one cable I'm prepared to run down the garden each time. 

Not sure I understand the link you've referred too, is that really just a fancy WiFI extender, like the one (BT) I already have in the house to boost the signal in the lounge for the TV?  If so, could I plug one into the said extension cable and link to that + would it be reliable?  Hitherto, I've stuck with cables only from the mount / camera etc into the house and PC as their almost 100% reliable.

Graham  

[Celerondon]

With an ASIAIR, polar alignment does not require a view of the celestial pole.  All Sky Polar Align (ASPA) is a convenient feature that is integrated into the ASIAIR system.  Using it is simple because you don’t need to learn special techniques or perform extra tasks.  

Just like traditional polar alignment, ASPA requires your mount to be level and aimed in the general direction of the celestial pole.  You also need to focus your camera so that you can ensure that your system is successful at plate solving.  Start by aiming your telescope at a section of clear sky that has a span of clear sky west of it.  Give the command to commence ASPA and your system will take a photo, plate solve, rotate westward, take another photo, plate solve again, rotate a third time, an after a third plate solve the ASIAIR will guide you through polar alignment.  That’s it!
 

Because of their external antennae, the ASIAIR Plus and ASIAIR Mini have superior WiFi range when compared with prior models of the ZWO controllers.  I have never seen proof of any difference between them but either can benefit from a range extender.  The Ethernet port on the Plus model adds another level of expandability for the communications range of the ASIAIR.  BTW, I would not want to run either model of the ASIAIR controller at their "maximum range" without assistance because of the effect that it has on the data rate.  Both the Plus and the Mini work best when they have a strong communications link to the controlling mobile device.

Don

[Elp]

Where I sit whilst my rig is running the mini has a strong link and can transfer each image preview within 3-5s or so (40Mb files, the camera being used does make a difference due to file sizes), moving around the room the connection is generally strong. The plus with the SMA cable extension I use has a bitty signal, when (if) connected the image transfer is much slower around 10-30s at least sometimes longer running into the next sub due to the slow rate. So there is a difference. I can walk to the front drive and still get a strong signal with the rig in the garden with the mini whereas the plus will not reach. The plus is only marginally better than a pro with quad antenna WiFi extender in my usage scenario. If you're at the same altitude level as your rig, maybe even within seeing distance out the window to your rig, you won't notice this performance difference. I only use my airs connecting directly to them via WiFi, not using station mode to my router or an ethernet connection. There really should be a WiFi channel selection option on the airs, the WiFi extender I used to use with the pro you could configure this but not within the airs, your local WiFi network "pollution" will also have a massive effect, as well as your building construction (they work well through windows for example, not so much via line of sight through brick). I haven't used one but it's likely a mini PC will have a better antenna as PC ones usually have better range.

Edited October 25, 2023 by Elp

[Celerondon]

Which Plus do you have, Elp?  I don’t have a Mini but I do know that there is a substantial difference between the architecture of some of the older ASIAIR Plus 32GB versions and the ASIAIR Plus 256GB.  The older Plus and prior models of the ASIAIR were definitely Raspberry Pi powered but the newer ones and the Plus 256GB are instead based on Rockchip hardware.  Because they were released last spring, all of the Plus 256GB units have Rockchip hardware. I have heard that the Mini, being a newer design, is also based on Rockchip hardware.  Do you think that it is possible that the difference is between the Rockchip based ASIAIR controllers and the older Raspberry Pi based designs rather than between the Plus and the Mini? Someone in the linked CN thread theorized that this was so.

Don

[Elp]

10 hours ago, Celerondon said:

Rockchip

I believe mine is a first gen plus and suspected they may have changed this without saying anything to the consumer, the amount you find for sale used is also an indicator (you don't see many minis for sale used). As you say the mini (was) the latest version so this feature was much improved, so I do strongly suspect this was modified for the newer plus. Another "plus" point for the plus is the usb3 ports for planetary imaging, but on a recent test I did FPS performance was close to the same between mini and plus despite the former "only" having usb2 ports, it didn't matter what video ROI resolution was selected. So the only real benefit I see with the plus is it's faster at processing (ie plate solving), I personally don't see the price difference being justified. You can also power a mini via usb C for convenience, say if you only want to do planetary with your mount already being powered separately, and connecting the air to PC via USB C to transfer files means the one cable powers it on and transfers the files rather than needing a 12v in on the plus to achieve the same thing. The plus does have the micro sd card option, and both I believe you can still write to a usb flash drive if for whatever reason you like to keep the air attached to the setup.

[groberts]

Came across this and wondered if it could be used with the ASIair to improve oits range?

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Vonets-VBG1200-Industrial-Ethernet-Extender-2-4Ghz-5Ghz/dp/B0B425SXXN/ref=sr_1_2_sspa?crid=VEN2LB1W23KX&keywords=Vonets+VBG1200+Wifi+extender+for+ZWO+ASIAIR+Pro&qid=1698315848&sprefix=vonets+vbg1200+wifi+extender+for+zwo+asiair+pro%2Caps%2C72&sr=8-2-spons&sp_csd=d2lkZ2V0TmFtZT1zcF9hdGY&psc=1

 

[Elp]

No, that's the one I used with my pro. The antenna's on the plus and mini are better.

[Elp]

You need something like this to see a long range improvement, I managed to bridge around 80M with this plugging in halfway from router to computer, the closer equipment is the better:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/NETGEAR-Wi-Fi-Range-Extender-EX3700/dp/B00XYEPLXU/ref=mp_s_a_1_17?crid=1TMLZTG66G2WK&keywords=wifi+extender&qid=1698316492&sprefix=wifi+ex%2Caps%2C113&sr=8-17

 

[Celerondon]

4 hours ago, Elp said:

I believe mine is a first gen plus and suspected they may have changed this without saying anything to the consumer, the amount you find for sale used is also an indicator (you don't see many minis for sale used). As you say the mini (was) the latest version so this feature was much improved, so I do strongly suspect this was modified for the newer plus. Another "plus" point for the plus is the usb3 ports for planetary imaging, but on a recent test I did FPS performance was close to the same between mini and plus despite the former "only" having usb2 ports, it didn't matter what video ROI resolution was selected. So the only real benefit I see with the plus is it's faster at processing (ie plate solving), I personally don't see the price difference being justified. You can also power a mini via usb C for convenience, say if you only want to do planetary with your mount already being powered separately, and connecting the air to PC via USB C to transfer files means the one cable powers it on and transfers the files rather than needing a 12v in on the plus to achieve the same thing. The plus does have the micro sd card option, and both I believe you can still write to a usb flash drive if for whatever reason you like to keep the air attached to the setup.

That is an interesting point that you make about the USB ports on the Mini.  I have seen people cite the USB 3 ports on the Plus as a major advantage for planetary work but I have never noticed complaints from Mini owners to confirm that distinction.  Although my first ASIAIR is a big Plus, I agree with your assessment of the performance/cost ratio for these devices. My next ASIAIR will be a Mini for the reasons that you mentioned. 
 

Don

[Elp]

The other benefit of the plus is that it has a side mounted threaded hole which isn't often mentioned, useful if you are short on mounting space which I have used on occasion, but that's more to do with not settling on a setup (keep chopping and changing the dslr lens setup).

[david_taurus83]

On 25/10/2023 at 15:50, bdlbug said:

I have both mounts that you mention, AZ EQ6 GT and recently bought a AM5. The AM5 is amazing, I also bought the carbon fibre tripod, you can lift mount and tripod with one hand, so will put very little strain on back and knees moving it around.
One point that I found out is that harmonic drives in general require to be driven (pulse guided) a lot more than the traditional GEM mounts, there is a really informative thread on the ZWO forum, the expert is Chen @w7ay that explains the way harmonic mounts need to be driven to get best guiding, but in summary you need to use PHD2 (or equiv) multi star guiding and use 0.5 - 1.5s exposures and use small guide pulses <100ms with very little aggression <40%. I have used this and achieved  <0.5" RMS regularly and sometimes down to 0.3" RMS.  A colleague in our astronomy club put a C11 on his AM5 and got guiding of 0.5"  RMS.

Been thinking about your connectivity - so you will have power at the bottom of your garden, as in mains power ?
If you do the perhaps a Wireless Ethernet bridge system would be very effective that would connect via the ASIair ethernet port and link into your home network so you can connect to the ASIair anywhere in you house where you have your home network..  This is an Amazon link - may give you some ideas as to how this may work.

https://amzn.eu/d/hOsyCdC

 

Bryan

 

Hi Bryan,

Do you use your AM5 with an ASIAir or through EQMod and PHD2? My AM5 guides around 0.4/0.5" RMS according to the ASIAir mini I have but I suspect the Air gives optimistic graphs and figures. I have wondered what the AM5 would by like if I swapped it onto my pier and ran through EQMod. Since taking my OAG off and going back to a guide scope my AZEQ6 guiding has suffered a little and I was wondering if I should have the more expensive AM5 on the pier. Does it punch above its weight and guide like a mount more than twice its price?

[bdlbug]

4 hours ago, david_taurus83 said:

Do you use your AM5 with an ASIAir or through EQMod and PHD2? My AM5 guides around 0.4/0.5" RMS according to the ASIAir mini I have but I suspect the Air gives optimistic graphs and figures. I have wondered what the AM5 would by like if I swapped it onto my pier and ran through EQMod. Since taking my OAG off and going back to a guide scope my AZEQ6 guiding has suffered a little and I was wondering if I should have the more expensive AM5 on the pier. Does it punch above its weight and guide like a mount more than twice its price?

 I drive the AM5 from an ASIair Plus.

All my recent images with my Stellamira 90EDT plus FF/FR  with resolution of 1.7"/pix were on AM5 guided via ASiair and it didnt drop a sub due to erratic guiding - so for me its a soild performer

Not entirely sure why you suspect that the ASIair reports better guiding figures  as it is  PHD2 that ZWO have included in the software platform to perform the guiding on the ASIair (albeit a version that  does not give you the same level of configuration as the stand alone version) 
The ZWO forum thread that I got all my information from is still live,  Its a long read , but there is a lot of really solid information from Chen, @w7ay - https://bbs.astronomy-imaging-camera.com/d/15989-getting-the-best-performance-from-my-am5

Regards the OAG aspect of guiding an AM5 - Chen indicates that a large (ish) objective guidescope that gives good stars to enable multi star guiding is preferable for guding AM5 due to the requirement to refresh the guide commands to AM5 0.5s - 1.5s

You also need to limit the max move pulses - this thread explains it all in quite a lot of detail.

Hope  this useful

 

[david_taurus83]

Thanks Bryan. I'm just curious I suppose. I've seen plenty of threads/posts from people who use an Air to control their Skywatcher mounts and the guide figures always seem to be a bit better than those quoted by others who use Windows based control with the same mounts, hence my suspicions. I could be wrong. Most people with an AM5, including myself, all appear to use it with an Air. If like to know how it performs with a normal Windows setup. I suppose there's only one way I'll find out!

[bdlbug]

The PHD logs can be downloaded from ASIair and analysed with PHD2 log file viewer as well - so you can do some comparisons with raw guide data from an ASIair controller and PHD2 running on windows or Linux 

[Elp]

15 hours ago, david_taurus83 said:

optimistic graphs

During a recent session before dithering I was allegedly guiding at 0.05 RMS, never happened before, and after dithering didnt happen again, so I take it with a pinch of salt.

[david_taurus83]

Well I have swapped things around now so just need a clear night to try it out. Though the AM5 can easily manage without a counterweight i felt a bit uneasy about having nothing on there and considereing its just held onto the pier with a 3/8 rod i put the extension bar from the AZEQ6 on there and a 5kg weight for piece of mind. I was mistaken about EQMod though, the PC uses the ASI Mount driver. Connected and tested out without any issues.

 

 

Only thing now though is my portable setup isnt exactly portable anymore..

Edited October 29, 2023 by david_taurus83

[david_taurus83]

I have started a new topic on the guiding of this mount and the ASIAir so as not to let this go too far off topic.

https://stargazerslounge.com/topic/415062-asiair-am5-guiding-results/