Upgrade for Bortle 7 skies.

[RyanL]

Hi,

I'm soon to be in the market for an upgrade of my 114/1000 reflector that I got for a bargain price. There's nothing wrong with it as such, I just want the ability to see a bit more.

I'm apparently in Bortle 7 but I'm right near junction 1 of the M3 with Heathrow in the other direction and a nice glow from London to the East so I'm a bit sceptical!

I really fancy an 8 inch dob although I only have a small garden so not sure it would see over the neighbours fence, a problem I don't have with a mounted scope. Plus my back is kaput so not sure about portability.

So my question is what kind of upgrade would you suggest? Budget around £500 for visual only at this point.

Cheers

Ryan.

[bosun21]

What sort of mount do you have your existing 114/1000 reflector on? This will greatly influence recommendations.

[Elp]

Tbh I don't think you'll see that much difference going up aperture. I'm bortle 7, started with a 60mm refractor, went up to 130 reflector now have a 150mm SCT. Globular clusters are still invisible to me, can just about make out M13 with averted vision but it's so incredibly dim it's not even worth it. Put a camera on however and within 10s it's there in plain sight. Maybe you can explore EAA. I'm under the impression due to my LP, it doesn't matter what size scope I get, any background light will just be magnified in a larger aperture (so will the object). It's a completely different experience if you observe from a darker sky.

[RyanL]

4 minutes ago, bosun21 said:

What sort of mount do you have your existing 114/1000 reflector on? This will greatly influence recommendations.

It's only the EQ1 that came with it, so not the best! 

[RyanL]

10 minutes ago, Elp said:

Tbh I don't think you'll see that much difference going up aperture. I'm bortle 7, started with a 60mm refractor, went up to 130 reflector now have a 150mm SCT. Globular clusters are still invisible to me, can just about make out M13 with averted vision but it's so incredibly dim it's not even worth it. Put a camera on however and within 10s it's there in plain sight. Maybe you can explore EAA. I'm under the impression due to my LP, it doesn't matter what size scope I get, any background light will just be magnified in a larger aperture (so will the object). It's a completely different experience if you observe from a darker sky.

Starting to think the same as your last paragraph!

[Cosmic Geoff]

What objects do you want to see? Faint extended objects will be invisible or very hard to see in Bortle 7, while planets and double stars will be observable.  EAA would help to some extent.

[RyanL]

43 minutes ago, Cosmic Geoff said:

What objects do you want to see? Faint extended objects will be invisible or very hard to see in Bortle 7, while planets and double stars will be observable.  EAA would help to some extent

I'm starting to realise the fuzzies aren't viable from here so I'm thinking about something suitable for planets etc..from home that's portable enough to take to darker skies. 

 

 

[John]

The 127mm maksutov-cassegrains do a great job on the moon, planets and double stars. They are compact and portable. You will need to use a dew shield with one but those don't cost much and are also light.

Sky-Watcher SkyMax-127 AZ5 Deluxe | First Light Optics

I believe your current 114mm scope is of the bird-jones design ?

You may well get a nice surprise on how much of an upgrade something like the above linked scope would be.

Edited August 8, 2023 by John

[bosun21]

I was just about to recommend the same scope @John. There's a lot more to see up there than solar system objects despite being bortle 7. 

[RyanL]

34 minutes ago, John said:

The 127mm maksutov-cassegrains do a great job on the moon, planets and double stars. They are compact and portable. You will need to use a dew shield with one but those don't cost much and are also light.

Sky-Watcher SkyMax-127 AZ5 Deluxe | First Light Optics

I believe your current 114mm scope is of the bird-jones design ?

You may well get a nice surprise on how much of an upgrade something like the above linked scope would be.

Yeah, It is a bird Jones but I only paid £6.50 for it on eBay so thought why not. I do have a Heritage 100p that has better contrast but planets are tiny in it.

I've been looking at the Skymax 127 and it's definitely on the list. How's the field of view in it?

[John]

10 minutes ago, RyanL said:

Yeah, It is a bird Jones but I only paid £6.50 for it on eBay so thought why not. I do have a Heritage 100p that has better contrast but planets are tiny in it.

I've been looking at the Skymax 127 and it's definitely on the list. How's the field of view in it?

Using 1.25 inch eyepieces the max true field of view would be just over 1 degree (2x full moon diameters). That assumes you use something like a 32mm plossl eyepiece.

 

 

[PeterStudz]

I have a Skywatcher Skyhawk 1145p and a Skywatcher 8” Dob. I’m also in Bortle 7.

The real difference (and it’s massive) is on the planets and to a lesser extent the moon plus white light solar. Not really the extra magnification but the contrast.

Eg Mars through the 114 was just a featureless small dot. You could tell it was a planet but that was about it. Through the 8” Dob and on a good night, I could make out a polar ice cap, the polar hood, darker albedo features, even clouds.

With the 8” Dob on Saturn I could see cloud banding and the Cassini Division in the ring. Occasionally other, if rather subtle, ring divisions too. Through the 114 the ring itself was clear and obvious but not much else.

Jupiter through the 8” can easily resolve the GRS, and cloud banding with much greater detail. Plus things like shadow transits which just could not be detected through the 114. 

For DSO there isn’t a great deal of difference apart from some of the brighter objects. Like the globular M13, Orion nebula, ring nebula, dumbbell plus some open clusters. Eg M13 - through the 114 it’s just a fuzzy blob. But on a good night in the 8” I can make out literally dozens of stars in the globular - kind of twinkles in and out of view like a glitter ball. However, a good night is key. Some nights, even in Bortle 7 are “darker” than others. And I find that here, after about 1:30am, things are generally darker. So usually worth staying up late. Oh, the galaxies M81 & M82 are obviously better in the Dob too.

Of course nothing beats a dark site. Last year I took the 114 on holiday, and on an aircraft, to Bortle 1-2. Obviously not possible with an 8” Dob. And the views were stunning. Things like the lagoon, triffid and swan nebula were breath taking. Mind, it was so dark that I could even make out the swan naked eye. At home, even through the 8”, it simply isn’t there. 

[AstroMuni]

19 hours ago, RyanL said:

I'm starting to realise the fuzzies aren't viable from here so I'm thinking about something suitable for planets etc..from home that's portable enough to take to darker skies.

Suggest you borrow a filter such as Antlia Triband and see if you have more success. I have a few friends who use it for EEVA and visual. I have seen the output of the EEVA and it looks great, so worth a try.

[RyanL]

4 hours ago, PeterStudz said:

I have a Skywatcher Skyhawk 1145p and a Skywatcher 8” Dob. I’m also in Bortle 7.

The real difference (and it’s massive) is on the planets and to a lesser extent the moon plus white light solar. Not really the extra magnification but the contrast.

Eg Mars through the 114 was just a featureless small dot. You could tell it was a planet but that was about it. Through the 8” Dob and on a good night, I could make out a polar ice cap, the polar hood, darker albedo features, even clouds.

With the 8” Dob on Saturn I could see cloud banding and the Cassini Division in the ring. Occasionally other, if rather subtle, ring divisions too. Through the 114 the ring itself was clear and obvious but not much else.

Jupiter through the 8” can easily resolve the GRS, and cloud banding with much greater detail. Plus things like shadow transits which just could not be detected through the 114. 

For DSO there isn’t a great deal of difference apart from some of the brighter objects. Like the globular M13, Orion nebula, ring nebula, dumbbell plus some open clusters. Eg M13 - through the 114 it’s just a fuzzy blob. But on a good night in the 8” I can make out literally dozens of stars in the globular - kind of twinkles in and out of view like a glitter ball. However, a good night is key. Some nights, even in Bortle 7 are “darker” than others. And I find that here, after about 1:30am, things are generally darker. So usually worth staying up late. Oh, the galaxies M81 & M82 are obviously better in the Dob too.

Of course nothing beats a dark site. Last year I took the 114 on holiday, and on an aircraft, to Bortle 1-2. Obviously not possible with an 8” Dob. And the views were stunning. Things like the lagoon, triffid and swan nebula were breath taking. Mind, it was so dark that I could even make out the swan naked eye. At home, even through the 8”, it simply isn’t there. 

Thank you for such a detailed reply. Much appreciated. I'm tempted to just go with my heart and get a dob, I know if I don't at least try one it will always be on my mind, however other suggestions are also tempting. Times like this I wish I was rich!

Cheers

Ryan.

Edited August 9, 2023 by RyanL
Grammar

[PeterStudz]

1 minute ago, RyanL said:

Thank you for such a detailed reply. Much appreciated. I'm tempted to just go with my heart and get a dob, I know if I don't at least try one it will always be on my mind, however other suggestions are also tempting. Times like this I wish I was rich!

Cheers

Ryan.

Thanks and no worries! 

My 8” Dob can fit in my car and I keep on meaning to take it somewhere darker. It’s actually not that far. But there’s something special about observing from your house.

I also got the Dob given to me for free by a nice guy on this forum. It had issues (like no base). But I stripped it down, fixed it up,  put it back together and made a base at minimal cost using plywood from Wicks. So look around, there are bargains out there! And some of the 8” DOBs being sold are really excellent value.

[callisto]

I'll chirp in and recommend the Dob too 👍 

Mark.