Upgrade for DSO Astrophotography

[sPhyre91]

Greetings everyone, I would like to ask you for advice since I would like to go deeper in this wonderful hobby of us. I started using a telescope a couple years ago with a mak 127 with an alt-az mount GoTo, with which I was able to study the sky, understanding the main constellations and losing myself in Saturn rings and Jupiter stripes and moons.

I now would like to take a step into DSO astrophotography, I tried to use my Scope with an old DSLR (a Nikon D3200), but the results are quite underwhelming as I'm a total photography noob and I'm still trying to understand ISO and exposure time balance: DSS only recognise 2 or 3 stars in my M31 photos and is not able to stack them together.

Based on some youtube videos and online articles, I've put down a list of gear to buy, as I hope to get better results in my photo sessions.

The Items I'm willing to get are the Skywatcher Star Adventurer GTi and a Redcat 51 telescope. In a near future I would get a guidescope with a camera.

So I'm now asking to you if this purchase is a gamechanger in learning how to get proper shoots or I should wait and practice more with my current setup?

 

[AstroNebulee]

Greetings to you.

I would definitely keep practicing with your current set up before leaping into further astrophotography. I think many of us started with the basics of Alt Az astrophotography. Myself I started with my AzGti and Canon 450d then 600D and learnt so much. Then I was ready to get into eq astrophotography. 

Your 127 mak will be great for brighter dso's, some galaxies and lunar/planetary. Though a Widefield scope with a shorter focal length is better on many fainter dso's. A William Optics or skywatcher Ed range are nice scopes and even the Redcat as you say. 

Learn the iso and exposures you can manage with a alt az setup. What settings are you using on your current dslr set up? 1600iso is a good starting point and it all depends how long the exposures are before you see trailing. You will get field rotation but you could move the scope ever so slightly using the mounts controller left, right, up down buttons. This may help a bit, but only moving a few pixels. 

A fine book called making every photon count by Steve Richards is worth a good read of. urer gti is a good portable mount for a beginner. 

The star adventurer gti is a lovely mount for a beginner lightweight astrophotography setup. Though depending of you wanted to future proof with bigger scopes a heftier mount you will need. Though I run a skywatcher 72ed with astro camera, guiding and asiair pro on an az gti. So you don't always need bigger. 

But cut your teeth on your current setup first. You can get some wonderful images with a no eq setup as a thread on here will show. 

I was amazed with what I could achieve back when I started. 

Lee 

Edited July 21, 2023 by AstroNebulee

[Swoop1]

Hi @sPhyre91 and welcome.

I am trying to improve my deep sky stuff myself and am taking the route of a 72mm refractor.

My advice (amateur in the extreme that it is) is as follws-

You need a drive equatorial mount to enable the long exposures needed to track your target accross the sky.

To improve detail, you need to take as many exposures as you can.

Find the stacking software that works for you- there are a few out there that are really good for deep sky but I'm not yet sure which one I can use.

The real art in deep sky astrophotography is the post processing. This is the dark art of the subject. Detail in stacked images is often not visible until you have started the post processing to draw it out.

There are some good books and tutorials out there. Making Every Photon Count available from FLO is a good starting point for learning.

Good luck!

[AstroNebulee]

Just a addition with your set up M31 woukd be very zoomed in and mainly just the core. You'd need a Widefield scope to fit it in better 

Lee 

[sPhyre91]

8 minutes ago, AstroNebulee said:

Greetings to you.

I would definitely keep practicing with your current set up before leaping into further astrophotography. I think many of us started with the basics of Alt Az astrophotography. Myself I started with my AzGti and Canon 450d then 600D and learnt so much. Then I was ready to get into eq astrophotography. 

Learn the iso and exposures you can manage with a alt az setup. What settings are you using on your current dslr set up? 1600iso is a good starting point and it all depends how long the exposures are before you see trailing. You will get field rotation but you could move the scope ever so slightly using the mounts controller left, right, up down buttons. This may help a bit, but only moving a few pixels. 

A fine book called making every photon count by Steve Richards is worth a good read of. urer gti is a good portable mount for a beginner. 

The star adventurer gti is a lovely mount for a beginner lightweight astrophotography setup. 

But cut your teeth on your current setup first. You can get some wonderful images with a no eq setup as a thread on here will show. 

I was amazed with what I could achieve back when I started. 

Lee 

Thank you very much for the beautiful examples you posted, those are really nice incentives to squeeze anything I can from my current setup! 

The settings I've tried are 400, 800 and 1600 ISO for 30'' exposure time. I'm waiting for my Intervalometer to be delivered today so I'll be able to set for longer exposure time. I'm also 3D printing a Bahtinov mask for my scope to get better focus!

Can you please suggest me some good DSO I can shoot with my Mak? I'm planning to get M57 and/or Xi Cygni with the North America Nebula tonight

[Swoop1]

23 minutes ago, sPhyre91 said:

The settings I've tried are 400, 800 and 1600 ISO for 30'' exposure time. I'm waiting for my Intervalometer to be delivered today so I'll be able to set for longer exposure time. I'm also 3D printing a Bahtinov mask for my scope to get better focus!

I have to use maximum ISO when doing deep sky- 3200 on my camera. I have maximum exposure time of 30 seconds also at the moment.

Bodes Galaxy (M81) and the Cigar Galaxy (M82) are nice targets and fairly easily locateable in the region of Ursa Major.

[AstroNebulee]

56 minutes ago, sPhyre91 said:

Thank you very much for the beautiful examples you posted, those are really nice incentives to squeeze anything I can from my current setup! 

The settings I've tried are 400, 800 and 1600 ISO for 30'' exposure time. I'm waiting for my Intervalometer to be delivered today so I'll be able to set for longer exposure time. I'm also 3D printing a Bahtinov mask for my scope to get better focus!

Can you please suggest me some good DSO I can shoot with my Mak? I'm planning to get M57 and/or Xi Cygni with the North America Nebula tonight

As swoop says I'd use the higher iso you can as it will pull more light in but also lead to more noise in your images. Which is where taking calibration frames dark, bias and flat come in though it's harder with a dslr setup because of the temperature not remaining constant. (though that's another topic again and as said before the book by Steve Richards-making every photon count is great. 

You can use this website here to see what your set up would be able to for in. 

https://astronomy.tools/calculators/field_of_view/

Many large targets won't fit into your field of view, thats where a shorter focal length widefield scope would work but there are targets for you. M81&82 as. Swoop said. The cocoon nebula IC 5146 for example. Try using sky safari or stellarium software on your phone to see which targets are available in your area too. But you could fit interesting parts of larger targets like the gulf of Mexico, Cygnus wall area in the north American nebula ngc 7000 or the garnet star area in the elephants trunk nebula IC 1396. 

The intervalometer will be of great use as you won't be touching the camera at all whilst taking an exposure. Though I'd doubt you will go beyond 30secs as star trailing will probably intervene by the but see how far you can go by Al means. I'm no expert. 

Your batinov mask will help you greatly too. I the mean time you can use live view on your dslr to zoom in until any star is as sharp as possible. 

This thread may help you with no eq astrophography. 

https://stargazerslounge.com/topic/228101-the-no-eq-dso-challenge/

Lee 

Edited July 21, 2023 by AstroNebulee

[Albir phil]

Hi I think the reason why DSS only finds ,3 stars is that you need to move the slider,I think it's under advanced or other settings,it should then recognize more stars and Stack your images, this is of course if you're exposure time is long enough.Also I agree with others use the equipment you have to experiment and that way learn more.Its the mistakes we make that teach us more👍

[AstroNebulee]

41 minutes ago, Albir phil said:

Hi I think the reason why DSS only finds ,3 stars is that you need to move the slider,I think it's under advanced or other settings,it should then recognize more stars and Stack your images, this is of course if you're exposure time is long enough.Also I agree with others use the equipment you have to experiment and that way learn more.Its the mistakes we make that teach us more👍

Yes +1 for this 😊. 

Register settings - Advanced-move slider - compute the number of detected stars. 

Just move this slider to the right each time to let dss detect more stars in your image and give it a try. 

Lee 

Edited July 21, 2023 by AstroNebulee

[Swoop1]

Thats why I love this forum! I didn't know that is how the Register Settings in DSS works👍

[sPhyre91]

2 hours ago, Albir phil said:

Hi I think the reason why DSS only finds ,3 stars is that you need to move the slider,I think it's under advanced or other settings,it should then recognize more stars and Stack your images, this is of course if you're exposure time is long enough.Also I agree with others use the equipment you have to experiment and that way learn more.Its the mistakes we make that teach us more👍

 

1 hour ago, AstroNebulee said:

Yes +1 for this 😊. 

Register settings - Advanced-move slider - compute the number of detected stars. 

Just move this slider to the right each time to let dss detect more stars in your image and give it a try. 

Lee 

Yes, I tried that and the software finds me 500ish stars, but in the checked list I've only got 1 or 2 stars for the first pictures and none on the others 😕

Tonight I will try better focusing with my brand new Bahtinov mask and will try to catch the beautiful M27 nebula! I will get you posted!

[AstroNebulee]

5 minutes ago, sPhyre91 said:

 

Yes, I tried that and the software finds me 500ish stars, but in the checked list I've only got 1 or 2 stars for the first pictures and none on the others 😕

Tonight I will try better focusing with my brand new Bahtinov mask and will try to catch the beautiful M27 nebula! I will get you posted!

That's strange with 500plus stars picked up in the registration. Do you have a screenshot of the part where your checked images have 1-2 stars. 

Hopefully your new focusing with the batinov mask will help. Make sure you pick a really bright star and up your iso high for the focus routine. 

How big are all your dslr images in mb. Could be worth uploading to a sharing site for us to look at if possible. 

Lee 

Edited July 21, 2023 by AstroNebulee

[sPhyre91]

On 21/07/2023 at 17:07, AstroNebulee said:

That's strange with 500plus stars picked up in the registration. Do you have a screenshot of the part where your checked images have 1-2 stars. 

Hopefully your new focusing with the batinov mask will help. Make sure you pick a really bright star and up your iso high for the focus routine. 

How big are all your dslr images in mb. Could be worth uploading to a sharing site for us to look at if possible. 

Lee 

Good evening Lee,

so after some trial and proper focusing, I managed to have decent shoots (or so I thought while shooting)

I took 80+ light frame of M81, 45"at ISO 12800 (is the max ISO my DSLR can do)

Most of them had a lot of noise and I couldn't use them for stacking, so on 80+ I saved 11 lights

DSC_0072.NEF

The final result after stacking and a bit of stretching and colour adjustment is this:

 

The Bahtinov mask for sure helped me getting good focus, and being able to finally stack photos is kind of my first important achievement! 

I'm going to lower the ISO to get less noise and be able to stack more light frames!

[AstroNebulee]

5 hours ago, sPhyre91 said:

Good evening Lee,

so after some trial and proper focusing, I managed to have decent shoots (or so I thought while shooting)

I took 80+ light frame of M81, 45"at ISO 12800 (is the max ISO my DSLR can do)

Most of them had a lot of noise and I couldn't use them for stacking, so on 80+ I saved 11 lights

DSC_0072.NEF 26.9 MB · 2 downloads

The final result after stacking and a bit of stretching and colour adjustment is this:

 

The Bahtinov mask for sure helped me getting good focus, and being able to finally stack photos is kind of my first important achievement! 

I'm going to lower the ISO to get less noise and be able to stack more light frames!

That's great you manged to have a better session with your scope and got them to stack properly this time and have a successful image to show for your efforts. 

Have you tried stacking all 80 lights as I'd expect they'd all have roughly the same amount of noise in them.

Take as many frames as possible next time the more you get the better the image and more in there to pull out the detail. Then further on you can try calibration frames of bias and flats. Not sure if darks will help you with a nikon dslr as I've never owned one. 

The 127mak is a slower scope at f12  so takes longer to collect the light needing a slightly higher iso. You may struggle with this but try 1600 and see. 

I will have a go at your image when I'm home from work. 

Great first steps though well done.

Lee 

Edited July 25, 2023 by AstroNebulee

[Clarkey]

As a general rule I try to avoid disagreeing with people on the forums, but on this occasion I think battling on with the Mak is just going to frustrate you. At f12 the Mak is just too slow for DSO imaging (but great for planets / lunar). I think you would be better off with a widefield set up to start, which will give you much better results. If you went down the second-hand route, you can try it for minimal outlay and recoup your costs if you decide it is not for you at a later date. An EQ mount will also make life a whole lot easier, but the alt-az is usable if you keep your exposures short.

[AstroNebulee]

5 hours ago, Clarkey said:

As a general rule I try to avoid disagreeing with people on the forums, but on this occasion I think battling on with the Mak is just going to frustrate you. At f12 the Mak is just too slow for DSO imaging (but great for planets / lunar). I think you would be better off with a widefield set up to start, which will give you much better results. If you went down the second-hand route, you can try it for minimal outlay and recoup your costs if you decide it is not for you at a later date. An EQ mount will also make life a whole lot easier, but the alt-az is usable if you keep your exposures short.

Yep I agree 😊. I did mention the slow mak and needing a Widefield scope in my previous posts too 👍. 

Lee

Edited July 25, 2023 by AstroNebulee

[GTom]

The Mak is a perfect PLANETARY scope. Have you tried that aspect, taking videos with your scope+a Barlow 2x? Jupiter is on show in the mornings now!

I know the Redcat is very popular, but also very expensive for what it can deliver. You can get the same results with an old 2.8/180mm telephoto stopped down to f/4, and you don't need to worry about adapters & Co.

Have you astro-modded your D3200 yet?

 

[AstroMuni]

On 21/07/2023 at 11:15, sPhyre91 said:

I started using a telescope a couple years ago with a mak 127 with an alt-az mount GoTo

You should be able to make a start with your existing setup.

Aim for the DSOs that fit into your FOV and learn the techniques of managing your scope & camera with software & understanding post image capture processing. I certainly find that the latter has the steeper learning curve. Using the data I have acquired, friends of mine who have more experience, can get vastly better images. Get a laptop with lots of storage and good processing power (in case you havent already got it). Good luck.

[GTom]

6 hours ago, AstroMuni said:

You should be able to make a start with your existing setup.

Aim for the DSOs that fit into your FOV and learn the techniques of managing your scope & camera with software & understanding post image capture processing. I certainly find that the latter has the steeper learning curve. Using the data I have acquired, friends of mine who have more experience, can get vastly better images. Get a laptop with lots of storage and good processing power (in case you havent already got it). Good luck.

DSO AP with 1500mm FL, F12, on an AZ mount? Because that is what the OP has if I understood correctly...

[AstroMuni]

13 hours ago, GTom said:

DSO AP with 1500mm FL, F12, on an AZ mount? Because that is what the OP has if I understood correctly...

Its not the optimal choice but will certainly get you decent images. My approach is start with what you have and learn from it. Then you can make the informed choice rather than what a dozen folk have recommended based on their experiences. Its a bit like when folk say you cant get decent images without guiding. Its all in the perception of what is 'acceptable' at a point in time to the person, is it not?

Edited August 4, 2023 by AstroMuni

[sPhyre91]

Greetings guys, thank you all for the precious answers and advices you gave me, there is a lot to learn and understand in this hobby but you guys, this forum and youtube are just great to get started!

I'm posting an update as I am getting kind of serious in this, and since I got a great deal, I was able to get the SA GTi with a guidescope and camera. I used phd2 for guiding and when I saw an error of 0.64" on the graph it was really exciting as it was my first time polar aligning and guiding!

My target for these nights has been the M27, and here it is!

20x180s lights, only 5 darks (my camera battery was exhausted) at ISO 800

Stacked in DSS and edited in GIMP.

I know it is nothing special, but being able to shoot this objects, and knowing I can get only better at this is a wonderful felling!

Clear skies to all of you guys!

[AstroNebulee]

32 minutes ago, sPhyre91 said:

Greetings guys, thank you all for the precious answers and advices you gave me, there is a lot to learn and understand in this hobby but you guys, this forum and youtube are just great to get started!

I'm posting an update as I am getting kind of serious in this, and since I got a great deal, I was able to get the SA GTi with a guidescope and camera. I used phd2 for guiding and when I saw an error of 0.64" on the graph it was really exciting as it was my first time polar aligning and guiding!

My target for these nights has been the M27, and here it is!

20x180s lights, only 5 darks (my camera battery was exhausted) at ISO 800

Stacked in DSS and edited in GIMP.

I know it is nothing special, but being able to shoot this objects, and knowing I can get only better at this is a wonderful felling!

Clear skies to all of you guys!

That's a nice mount you have there. Nice and lightweight and good guiding figures too. Are you still using your Skymax 127?

Great job and pleased you've got a nice image there. Next time take some flat frames to help calibrate out the border you have around the outside. At least I think flats will calibrate this out. 

You've made a great start, keep going 👏. 

Lee

[sPhyre91]

22 minutes ago, AstroNebulee said:

That's a nice mount you have there. Nice and lightweight and good guiding figures too. Are you still using your Skymax 127?

Great job and pleased you've got a nice image there. Next time take some flat frames to help calibrate out the border you have around the outside. At least I think flats will calibrate this out. 

You've made a great start, keep going 👏. 

Lee

Hi Lee, yes, this is taken with my mak 127! I love this mount as I can easily carry it in darker places away from the street lights I have in my backyard!

Thank you really much for your support, I will continue post updates on my shootings!

[sPhyre91]

Hello guys, I decided to go all in and get a Redcat 51 for widefield photos! I have now a complete "beginner" set up and this is my first light with it!

Telescope: Redcat 51

Mount: Skywatcher star adventurer GTi

Guide: ZWO 120mini with WO Uniguide 32mm (phd2)

Camera: Nikon D5500

Lights: 82x180" @ISO 400

20 Darks

Imaging session with N.I.N.A., stacked in DSS and edited in GIMP

I now have to study deeper the post elaboration as I think I can get more data from my image!

I love every part of this, every day I discover something new and is amazing!

 

Clear skies to all of you!!

 

Edited August 11, 2023 by sPhyre91

[WolfieGlos]

Great image so early in your AP journey, well done! Is your camera modded, or is that a stock DSLR?

Going back to the Skymax, I agree with what others have said, but if you still have it, you could potentially try it on globular clusters https://astronomy.tools/calculators/field_of_view/?fov[]=70||186||1|1|0&messier=13 . I've not used one myself, but it's just a thought.