Planetary Requirements?

[WolfieGlos]

I’m considering trying my hand at some planetary imaging, but I know little of it currently and would need to purchase the necessary equipment, and I wondered just what equipment I would need…and if what Ive got is suitable? I currently image DSO’s, and I’m hoping I don’t need to buy a new scope, but if I do, then I’ll consider it too depending on prices.

I’ve been reading this great guide to get started : https://www.cloudynights.com/topic/812022-planetary-imaging-faq-updated-january-2023/ .
I have a HEQ5 Pro and Starfield 102, and so my guidescope and DSLRs are useless for this. From what I can tell, all I would need is a planetary camera and a Barlow? Possibly a filter? 

If I opted for the ASI 224mc and a 3x Barlow, I would get a FL of 2136 at f/21 (pretty much what that FAQ suggests is needed in good seeing), and this would be the resulting view of Saturn using astronomy tools. Possibly a little small but I imagine it would be croppable? 

Edited July 15, 2023 by WolfieGlos

[Astr0Kaz]

Hi WolfieGlos,  I'm hoping to start imaging planets this year too 😃, I'd like to get my old Tal 2m 6" Newtonian collimated and possibly flock lined for the job. I've not done either before, so it'll be a fun summer project (fingers crossed it doesn't go wrong!) .

I have a ZWO ASI533mc (uncooled) camera that I hope to use. It is sold as a planetary camera, but I was recommended this by Chris at FLO as a Deep Sky Camera too, and it is very good! It's a huge improvement to my husband's old Nikon D300 DSLR that I was originally using 😃. I'm sure the cooled ZWO ASI533mc would have been better, but with the extra cost, it wasn't worth it for me.  It might be something to think about if you wanted to try it for DSO's too?  I am definitely no expert here though, others may tell you differently. 

I've put a lot of my DSO images with the ZWO ASI533mc on Instagram, Username Astr0kaz, so you are welcome to look if you were interested in the camera.  I am still learning how to process them too, so they might not be the best examples. 

Thank you for the Cloudy Skies link 😃 that looks really interesting 

Best of luck with it 

[Cosmic Geoff]

If starting from zero, you need a GoTo mount, a telescope of medium to large aperture, and a planetary camera. My last purchase was a ASI462 with 2.9um pixels. This camera is already superseded.  If you already own an ASI120MC or a ASI224MC, that will work.  Note that the smaller pixel cameras do not require such extreme effective focal ratios as recommended for larger pixel cameras. 

Most serious planetary imagers use a SCT of 8" or larger, or a Newtonian of similar aperture. 

[Clarkey]

3 hours ago, Cosmic Geoff said:

you need a GoTo mount

Not sure this is really true. I cannot find much in the sky - but even I can find planets. (Typical Astrophotographer - if in doubt plate solve😂)

3 hours ago, Cosmic Geoff said:

Most serious planetary imagers use a SCT of 8" or larger, or a Newtonian of similar aperture

True, but as the OP says, 'starting off' the Starfield will do, even if it is not ideal. I would say the only things missing are the camera and the barlow. There are loads of planetary cameras to choose from and the 224mc is certainly good enough. However, as @Astr0Kaz suggests, there are uncooled options that can also get you started in DSO imaging if you ever wanted to go down that route. With this kit you will not get the sort of images the serious planetary imagers are getting - but it is a start.

[Cosmic Geoff]

2 hours ago, Clarkey said:

Not sure this is really true. I cannot find much in the sky - but even I can find planets. (Typical Astrophotographer - if in doubt plate solve😂)

The GoTo is more to keep the planet in the FOV when you have narrowed the region-of-interest for taking a video.   It drifts off quicker with solar system align than with 2-star align, which suggests that tracking with a poorly aligned equatorial or a  manual mount will not be much fun.  Also useful for finding Neptune. 🙂

[WolfieGlos]

14 hours ago, Astr0Kaz said:

I have a ZWO ASI533mc (uncooled) camera that I hope to use. It is sold as a planetary camera, but I was recommended this by Chris at FLO as a Deep Sky Camera too, and it is very good! It's a huge improvement to my husband's old Nikon D300 DSLR that I was originally using 😃. I'm sure the cooled ZWO ASI533mc would have been better, but with the extra cost, it wasn't worth it for me.  It might be something to think about if you wanted to try it for DSO's too?  I am definitely no expert here though, others may tell you differently. 

Thanks - Interesting, I hadn’t considered the 533, I thought it was purely for DSO imaging. I know nothing of Astro cams so assumed some were for DSO and others planetary! Welcome to SGL 🙂

5 hours ago, Cosmic Geoff said:

If starting from zero, you need a GoTo mount, a telescope of medium to large aperture, and a planetary camera. My last purchase was a ASI462 with 2.9um pixels. This camera is already superseded.  If you already own an ASI120MC or a ASI224MC, that will work.  Note that the smaller pixel cameras do not require such extreme effective focal ratios as recommended for larger pixel cameras. 

Most serious planetary imagers use a SCT of 8" or larger, or a Newtonian of similar aperture. 

I have a HeQ5, so Goto is already sorted🙂 I hadn’t considered the ASI120, I have the 120mm mini for a guide camera, but being mono I guess this isn’t preferred for planetary due to the filter changes required. I’m not averse to getting a different scope for planetary, but I guess I could use the Starfield to learn how it’s done.?

2 hours ago, Clarkey said:

Not sure this is really true. I cannot find much in the sky - but even I can find planets. (Typical Astrophotographer - if in doubt plate solve😂)

True, but as the OP says, 'starting off' the Starfield will do, even if it is not ideal. I would say the only things missing are the camera and the barlow. There are loads of planetary cameras to choose from and the 224mc is certainly good enough. However, as @Astr0Kaz suggests, there are uncooled options that can also get you started in DSO imaging if you ever wanted to go down that route. With this kit you will not get the sort of images the serious planetary imagers are getting - but it is a start.

I do intend on moving to an Astro cam for DSO imaging (likely the 533mc pro) but don’t envisage this happening yet and I am perfectly happy with the modded DSLR. But if it is suitable for planetary too then I’m struggling to see why I would buy the 224mc now for planetary, only to then get the 533 down the line!

[Elp]

You can image with a DSLR but the biggest issues are they usually have large sensors so the planet will be projected onto a small surface area among few pixels, it depends on how large the planet will be on the sensor, and two if using a video mode (as continuous image capture can be slow compared to a planetary camera) you'll be tied to 25/30/50/60 FPS, even singular image capture with planetary cameras using a smaller region of interest crop on the sensor can get you over 100 FPS usually which is critical in freezing the seeing as those are the images you'll end up stacking after you've taken a couple of hundred or thousand at a time, and three video depending on the capture device can sometimes apply compression to the file which is what you don't want. 

Try with what you have first as you already have the equipment, a tracking mount helps with this as you're not constantly recentering the target, it's more difficult the longer focal length you image at, and too much fov drift during one capture and the stacking software won't like it.

I started with a 224, cameras have been added since but I still tend to use the 224, and I wouldn't really listen to scope suggestions for now, look what I achieved first time imaging these two with a 360mm focal length plus Barlow:

And here's the C6 test at 3000mm+:

 

Note, you can use uncooled cameras for DSO, I use them all the time even during summer, the 485 above performs brilliantly up to around 2 minute subs, the 585 that supercedes it has the no amp glow design like the 533. You can use mono on planets but possibly wise only if you have an EFW as you need to swap and capture quickly as most of the planets with detail rotate quicker than you believe.

Post processing is slightly different to DSO using autostakkert/registax.

[WolfieGlos]

Thanks Elp, those are some great images with the equipment. If I can achieve that I’ll be happy….for now, until the inevitable bug bites where I want more haha 🙄

The Z61 is comparable to my evostar 72ed in terms of FL and aperture, and I wasn’t even considering using that but that’s good to see what is possible. I didn’t consider a DSLR for this due to the slow video capture rate, as you say, but I believe the best DSLR for it was the Canon 550, although I really don’t want to be buying cameras that old now. 

Thanks for the 585, not one I had looked at but at least it’s a rectangular sensor (which I prefer). It’s not badly priced and if it’s suitable for DSO as well that’s a bonus. Why does the 485 perform well up to 2mins and not beyond? 

I’ve used pipp and autostakkert once when I first started on an image of the Moon, wasn’t very impressed with the result but I think it was all of a dozen shots on a DSLR, so that’s probably why. 

[Elp]

8 hours ago, WolfieGlos said:

Why does the 485 perform well up to 2mins and not beyond? 

The amp glow starts to become evident, note this is per image time, not camera running time as there's no issue running them for hours. I usually only image 30-60s for DSO with uncooled cameras anyway so it's not an issue. Depends on the camera, tried long exposure with my 224 and you can't really go above 30s, I think sensor size is a factor as the smaller it is the more likely it will amp glow depending on the design. It hasn't stopped people from doing DSO via the 224 though, I've seen excellent results. My 183 uncooled compared to my cooled one, it's just a bit noisier and the glow tends to be seen top and bottom of the sensor as well as on the RHS typical with 183s but the end result after calibration is very similar.

Edited July 17, 2023 by Elp

[Jules Tohpipi]

13 hours ago, WolfieGlos said:

Thanks for the 585, not one I had looked at but at least it’s a rectangular sensor (which I prefer). It’s not badly priced and if it’s suitable for DSO as well that’s a bonus.

I’m at the beginning of my astrophotography (EAA) adventure. Lots of people getting great DSO images with the 585 - not least of which Chris at FLO on his YouTube channel. 
 

I was torn between the 224 and 585. Went with the 585 as I like the rectangular shape also and the zero amp glow. The FOV is wider on the 585 (better for DSO) but to partially compensate on planets it’s got more pixels than the 224. 

Edited July 17, 2023 by Jules Tohpipi

[windjammer]

I think your starfield 102 will be fine to kick off with - I did a lot with an evostar 90mm F10. Barlow and eyepiece projection is needed to expand the image size which can be quite tricky to accommodate - see pic!

You need very short exposure frames (lucky imaging) and lots of them to stack (1000's).  So huge image file sizes are best avoided - just from a practical point of view: so fewer pixels, smaller sensor size.  Getting a faint and large planet image located on a small sensor can be a trial (I used an OAG inserted right to the centre of the FoV and eyepiece to land the planet, then withdrew the OAG stalk to start capturing).  

Active guiding with PHD or similar - the moons make good guide stars - really helps keeping the planet in view, though a bit of moving around the sensor helps mitigate the effects of dust bunnies and the like.  Stacking software will sort out the movements.  GoTo isn't necessary, though handy for Neptune as someone suggested!

Monochrome is fine, just need a filter wheel.  Your 120mm in 12bit mode would be suitable for this actually to get started. Run for 1 minute capturing gets 3000 frames at 50fps.  Change filter and repeat, and keep on going.  Jupiter or Mars do not rotate so far as to spoil the final images. 

As somebody else said, aperture is key to getting high res on eg Mars, and the albedo features on Jupiter's moons!

This link is to a time lapse of Jupiter done with the 90mm and a home made black and white video camera (hacked 1004x board camera, 8 bits mono).  It looks a bit crude now 5 years on, but shows you don't need a huge amount of kit to get going.  

https://www.flickr.com/photos/31131978@N00/44809619474/in/photostream/lightbox/

Here is the 90mm ready to go planetary...

Simon

[AstroMuni]

54 minutes ago, windjammer said:

Here is the 90mm ready to go planetary...

Sorry for side tracking this topic....

Hi Simon, Thats an interesting setup which seems to be hanging onto your roof 🙂  How is it mounted please? Any images of the base would help.

Edited July 17, 2023 by AstroMuni

[AstroMuni]

On 15/07/2023 at 23:31, WolfieGlos said:

I know little of it currently and would need to purchase the necessary equipment, and I wondered just what equipment I would need…and if what Ive got is suitable?

An ADC (atmospheric dispersion corrector) filter would be useful for planetary. An IR/UV cut filter too, if you havent already got it.

[BGazing]

Hello and welcome to the planetary imaging. I have started it only last autumn, but it was a lot of fun. 

Some things I picked up along the way...

New OSC (color) cameras are great. Much easier to deal with and just as good unless you are a master of mono processing. 

SCT 8 is a much better instrument for that than my Tak 100. For any decent size, I'd say 6in would be the starting point. There are some fine images at 5 inches, too, but with those super fast FPS cameras a SCT 8 is a good place to be. Doublet refractor would not have a good color correction.

Any tracking mount will do, I use AltAz mounts.

Aim for pixel size one fifth of your focal ratio. (e.g. 678 in my f/10) Use ADC. Not having to deal with a barlow is great, I always have the option to go for a bit of oversampling if seeing is amazing (it never is, though).

ADC is a must. Cheap one will do.

 

This is what you can do with modern cameras and good seeing. No particular experience needed or some great processing skills (just basic). This was in C8

 

Edited July 17, 2023 by BGazing

[windjammer]

6 minutes ago, BGazing said:

Hello and welcome to the planetary imaging. I have started it only last autumn, but it was a lot of fun. 

Some things I picked up along the way...

New OSC (color) cameras are great. Much easier to deal with and just as good unless you are a master of mono processing. 

SCT 8 is a much better instrument for that than my Tak 100. For any decent size, I'd say 6in would be the starting point. There are some fine images at 5 inches, too, but with those super fast FPS cameras a SCT 8 is a good place to be. Doublet refractor would not have a good color correction.

Any tracking mount will do, I use AltAz mounts.

Aim for pixel size one fifth of your focal ratio. (e.g. 678 in my f/10) Use ADC. Not having to deal with a barlow is great, I always have the option to go for a bit of oversampling if seeing is amazing (it never is, though).

ADC is a must. Cheap one will do.

 

Some lovely Jupiter time lapses on your flickr site !  Very nice !

Simon

[windjammer]

2 hours ago, AstroMuni said:

Sorry for side tracking this topic....

Hi Simon, Thats an interesting setup which seems to be hanging onto your roof 🙂  How is it mounted please? Any images of the base would help.

Hi -

Scroll down through this thread from the diy forum. I posted quite a few pics there...

https://stargazerslounge.com/topic/408025-high-spec-computerized-equatorial-mount-building-from-scratch/page/2/

Simon

[WolfieGlos]

 

Following the forum downtime, just to say thanks all for the input, much appreciated. 🙂 

Been watching a few videos and doing some research too, so it looks like my current scope would be suitable currently, but it would be beneficial to get a different one later on (which is fine). Happy to learn the ropes, provided the equipment I buy now will be compatible later on. So really, all I would need is a barlow, ADC, UV/IR filter and a camera.

On 17/07/2023 at 17:31, BGazing said:

Hello and welcome to the planetary imaging. I have started it only last autumn, but it was a lot of fun. 

Some things I picked up along the way...

New OSC (color) cameras are great. Much easier to deal with and just as good unless you are a master of mono processing. 

SCT 8 is a much better instrument for that than my Tak 100. For any decent size, I'd say 6in would be the starting point. There are some fine images at 5 inches, too, but with those super fast FPS cameras a SCT 8 is a good place to be. Doublet refractor would not have a good color correction.

Any tracking mount will do, I use AltAz mounts.

Aim for pixel size one fifth of your focal ratio. (e.g. 678 in my f/10) Use ADC. Not having to deal with a barlow is great, I always have the option to go for a bit of oversampling if seeing is amazing (it never is, though).

ADC is a must. Cheap one will do.

 

This is what you can do with modern cameras and good seeing. No particular experience needed or some great processing skills (just basic). This was in C8

 

Thanks for the pointers, and those are some great pictures on your flickr! One thing I want to ask; what's the reason to aim for a pixel size one fifth of the focal ratio? If I were to take my scope, I'd be looking for a pixel size of 1.4 - much smaller than both the ASI 224 and 585.

I've also compared those two cameras with a 3x barlow on astronomy tools, https://astronomy.tools/calculators/field_of_view/?fov[]=9551||266||3|1|0&fov[]=9551||9791||3|1|0&solar_system=saturn , and I'm struggling to understand why one camera is "zoomed in" so much more using the same scope and barlow. I assume this is a function of the sensor size and so is it better to use a 224 with a lower resolution (but more "zoom") or a 585 with more resolution but a wider FOV - only to be cropped right in? I've had a few dealings with Chris of FLO in the past, and his videos do show the 585 to be a great camera.

[Cosmic Geoff]

8 minutes ago, WolfieGlos said:

Thanks for the pointers, and those are some great pictures on your flickr! One thing I want to ask; what's the reason to aim for a pixel size one fifth of the focal ratio? If I were to take my scope, I'd be looking for a pixel size of 1.4 - much smaller than both the ASI 224 and 585.

The reason for such guides is to match the pixel size to the resolution of that aperture of scope.  The focal ratio here includes the effect of any Barlow lens etc.  For example, a 2.9um pixel size  used with a f7 scope and x2 barlow would be about right. 

For planetary use  the FOV will normally be restricted to keep the resultant video to a manageable size.  A large sensor is not entirely wasted as it is useful for finding the planet and centering it. It will also be advantageous if you also want to use the camera for deep-space imaging.

[WolfieGlos]

25 minutes ago, Cosmic Geoff said:

The reason for such guides is to match the pixel size to the resolution of that aperture of scope.  The focal ratio here includes the effect of any Barlow lens etc.  For example, a 2.9um pixel size  used with a f7 scope and x2 barlow would be about right. 

For planetary use  the FOV will normally be restricted to keep the resultant video to a manageable size.  A large sensor is not entirely wasted as it is useful for finding the planet and centering it. It will also be advantageous if you also want to use the camera for deep-space imaging.

Thanks Geoff. I just realised that this was stated on the CN thread I originally linked too, only that they worked it the other way around (pixel size * 5, instead of FL * 0.2).

So if I went for the 585, I would need a 2x barlow to match the pixel size as you say. But if I went for the 224 (3.75um) I would need a 2.5x barlow. Albeit this wouldn't really be suitable for DSO imaging unlike the 585.

[Cosmic Geoff]

12 hours ago, WolfieGlos said:

So if I went for the 585, I would need a 2x barlow to match the pixel size as you say. But if I went for the 224 (3.75um) I would need a 2.5x barlow. Albeit this wouldn't really be suitable for DSO imaging unlike the 585.

I have taken a large number of DSO pictures with an ASI224MC, basically because I had one already and did not want to spend loadsamoney on a more suitable DSO camera.

[BGazing]

On 19/07/2023 at 23:20, WolfieGlos said:

 

Following the forum downtime, just to say thanks all for the input, much appreciated. 🙂 

Been watching a few videos and doing some research too, so it looks like my current scope would be suitable currently, but it would be beneficial to get a different one later on (which is fine). Happy to learn the ropes, provided the equipment I buy now will be compatible later on. So really, all I would need is a barlow, ADC, UV/IR filter and a camera.

Thanks for the pointers, and those are some great pictures on your flickr! One thing I want to ask; what's the reason to aim for a pixel size one fifth of the focal ratio? If I were to take my scope, I'd be looking for a pixel size of 1.4 - much smaller than both the ASI 224 and 585.

I've also compared those two cameras with a 3x barlow on astronomy tools, https://astronomy.tools/calculators/field_of_view/?fov[]=9551||266||3|1|0&fov[]=9551||9791||3|1|0&solar_system=saturn , and I'm struggling to understand why one camera is "zoomed in" so much more using the same scope and barlow. I assume this is a function of the sensor size and so is it better to use a 224 with a lower resolution (but more "zoom") or a 585 with more resolution but a wider FOV - only to be cropped right in? I've had a few dealings with Chris of FLO in the past, and his videos do show the 585 to be a great camera.

Thank you and what Geoff said...you have to match the scope with the pixel size. Rule of thumb is 5x pixel size, 7x in exceptional seeing (but...hey...we are never that lucky).

Honestly, any of the new crop of color fast cameras will do, they all seem to be really good. You need UVIR cut filter (or IR cut only, but that is harder to source).

 

[Mark2022]

Reading this topic with interest since I was out two mights ago with my Meade LX10 8 inch. As you probably know, it's not a goto but the RA and Dec motors work and I set up  with very rough polar alignment just to keep the planet in the FOV as long as possible. However, due to juggling between low (26mm) and high power (9.7mm) eyepieces, barlows (Meade telenegative 2x and Neewer 3x) to locate the planet in FOV then swap out with the camera (a Nikon D5500), then finding I can't see it because the focus has changed and, by the time I work out where the focus is on the camera, the planet's out of the FOV again so it's redo time, it becomes a real struggle. Then you forget you're at ISO 25600 to find the planet on your camera screen and you're video is WAY too overexposed so, again, turn down the ISO (to about 400) and start again.

You can't fill that DSLR screen or anywhere near it.  You've changed from 1080p to 640 and wonder if that is going to help or make worse. You're pressing buttons on the NESW hand controller for the mount while you're fiddling around with camera and intervalometer settings (granted the intervalometer in this case is just press to play). You wonder if that  SVBony SV305 camera (equivalent to a ZWO 290) is going to do the job you're looking for once you get a windows laptop to plug it into and use something like Sharpcap however, you're thinking "it's hard enough keeping or finding the planet on an APS-C DSLR chip, what  will it be like trying to get it onto a SV305 chip about 1/3rd the size (or less). 

You have a Skywatcher goto mount (EQ5) but you've reserved it for a couple of other scopes (ST120 & SV503 70ED) and intend to use it for EAA once you have the observatory built (working on at the moment) but  you've replaced the main board of the LX10 at cost to get  it operating and it's  operating  well  and, like a car for some people, you're 'emotionally attached' to that fork mount you always  pined for since a  lad and have no intentions of deforking. So the 8 inch will never be used for long exposure deep sky work  but simply the odd night of visual and this "nightmare" of trying to capture some real detail on these damned elusive little dots called planets. No interest in Venus, Mercury, Neptune and Uranus (nothing to see in my opinion) but only Mars, Jupiter and Saturn.

So here are the two photos I took of Jupiter and Saturn the other night. Happy to capture anything at all but looking to, eventually, achieve what BGazing has above. How? I have no  idea as yet. Perhaps I'll get closer with the SV305. I  can't even remember the optical train for these photos. Whether I used the 9.7mm eyepiece projection (I did try at some point thru the night) or whether just at prime focus with either the 2x or 3x barlow.  I should keep notes. If you heard the audio on the video captured, you'd understand! 🙂

Any and all additional advice, appreciated.

[johnturley]

11 minutes ago, Mark2022 said:

So here are the two photos I took of Jupiter and Saturn the other night. Happy to capture anything at all but looking to, eventually, achieve what BGazing has above. How? I have no  idea as yet. Perhaps I'll get closer with the SV305. I  can't even remember the optical train for these photos. Whether I used the 9.7mm eyepiece projection (I did try at some point thru the night) or whether just at prime focus with either the 2x or 3x barlow.  I should keep notes. If you heard the audio on the video captured, you'd understand! 🙂

Any and all additional advice, appreciated.

 

 

With a digital SLR you will need to use eyepiece projection to get decent sized images that you can work on in processing programs, a 2 or 3x barlow won't give sufficient amplification, your 9.7 mm eyepiece, or with an APS-C sized sensor a 12-15mm eyepiece should work quite well.

John 

[Mark2022]

4 minutes ago, johnturley said:

With a digital SLR you will need to use eyepiece projection to get decent sized images that you can work on in processing programs, a 2 or 3x barlow won't give sufficient amplification, your 9.7 mm eyepiece, or with an APS-C sized sensor a 12-15mm eyepiece should work quite well.

John 

ISO and Exposure settings, John? The longest exp setting I can get is 1/30th with video. Then again, I believe we don't want long exposures anyhow BUT, dropping exp time makes the planet even dimmer so then, I suppose, it's upping the ISO? However, that then introduces more noise so....  ?

[johnturley]

28 minutes ago, Mark2022 said:

ISO and Exposure settings, John? The longest exp setting I can get is 1/30th with video. Then again, I believe we don't want long exposures anyhow BUT, dropping exp time makes the planet even dimmer so then, I suppose, it's upping the ISO? However, that then introduces more noise so....  ?

I haven't used my Canon 6D digital SLR for planetary imaging since getting a ZWO 462 Planetary Camera in 2021, if I remember rightly I think that I used around ISO 800 or 1,600 at 30 fps using eyepiece projection with a 9.7 mm Plossl.

You get a lot more control over the settings with a dedicated planetary camera.

John 

Edited August 13, 2023 by johnturley