Ultra grab and go- which one- TS 70ED f/6 ...or... TS 70 SD FPL53

[Marian M]

Hello all!

 

I am planning an ultra grab and go system with the following setup- 70 ED or APO, TS AZT6 without counterweight and a Manfrotto photo kind of tripod. All together max 8-10kg, ready to go in 2 min, packed in a small bag.

Currently I use the TS 102 FPL53, mostly with binoviewer (awesome scope, awesome combination) and still have 120/600 SW, either on AZEQ6 or on TS AZ5 Alt-Az (Skytee). I am planning to sell my Mak127, which seems redundant after the Apo 102 acquisition, and go towards the above ultra G&G combination. Probably at a later stage, when budget will allow, a bigger apo or a C8.

 

Sometimes it seems to me that I am a little bit lazy  and miss some on spot observations. I have the feeling that is going to take too much time to pack the 102 APO, tripod, eyepieces etc and move to the car, or just to get out from the building to a better observation place. Plus the fact that I have to do minimum 2 trips for all the stuff.

 

I have read also that a 80ED is a little too much for the TS AZT6, hence the call to stay with 70mm aperture. 70mm aperture will lead to 2.2 kg + a small Baader prism + some SLVs or Paradigms, all together up to 2.5 Kg. The 80 ED will have around 0.7-1kg more and a bigger length- 15cm more. All these seems small but i really want to stay with the most minimal configuration to say so- AZT6 + photo tripod

 

The big question is what should I buy- the ED or the FPL53 (also in a small budget  )? My only reference is the 120/600 achro, where at kind of 60x the image is becoming terrible and the 102 FPL53, which is shining up to 300x, without any image brakedown or false colors, absolutely phenomenal with Morpheus or SLV and the MB bino.

 

Is it worth spending close to 600 EUR instead of 370 EUR for FPL53? Have you done any comparison between the 2 glasses? I am just curious if the ED only can go up to let's say 100X- 120X, whatever the 70mm diameter and exit pupil will allow, but with a pure, clean and crisp view like an APO, without false colors or lack of snap on focus. Or just to wait more time for the bigger budget to be ready and FPL53?

 

So friends your experiences and tips are much than appreciated ...

 

Many thanks in advance!

Teleskop-Express: TS-Optics 70 mm F6 ED Travel Refractor with modern 2" RAP Focuser

Teleskop-Express: TS-Optics Doublet SD Apo 72 mm f/6 - FPL53 / Lanthanum Glass Objective

[Mr Spock]

I only have an 80ED and a 102mm FPL-53, so not a fair comparison. I can say the FPL-53 holds higher magnification better. The 80ED isn't bad though and star colours are lovely. I wouldn't push it beyond x100 though.

[Marian M]

Thanks a lot Michael for the quick revert!

There is a high degree of subjectivity, but would be correct to say that around 80x- 100x the view are much much closer to the FPL53 than to achro? If yes, we could have a winner 😃

[Mr Spock]

4 minutes ago, Marian M said:

There is a high degree of subjectivity, but would be correct to say that around 80x- 100x the view are much much closer to the FPL53 than to achro?

Oh yes! I had an old 80mm short tube achro many years ago and that was like a kaleidoscope at x80! The 80ED was a revelation by comparison.
My 80mm is a Celestron. It's such a heavy chunk it stays locked away in a cupboard... 

[Marian M]

Super!

I just had same feeling today; after staying away from home wit the APO about 2 months, just come back for few days and start doing some terrestrial view with the 20x80 Celestron Skymaster, in the absence of any other scope. I was wondering what is happening with the image, focus and mostly with the color fringe at 20x only 😆

The conclusion is that the 72ED could have a good, nice, clean and crisp view around 80x...

[Don Pensack]

It is my observation over the years that 100mm is about the minimum visual instrument size for astronomy use (smaller works fine for terrestrial use).

I think 50-90mm scopes are fine for astrophotography, but simply don't have enough light grasp for deep sky, visually.

Nor do they have sufficient resolution to show small details on planets or moon well.

The question is, how can you make a 102mm scope a "Grab'n'Go".  I did it by putting it on a Stellarvue M2C mount on a wooden tripod with pier extension.

I define grab'n'go as when a scope can be lifted while still on the mount and carried outdoors for a near-instant setup.

And, at 71, I have no problem lifting 20kg and carrying it 20 meters to the yard.

 

I would never define my larger scope as a "grab'n'go"--maybe a "drive'n'go", LOL.

[Nakedgun]

7 hours ago, Marian M said:

Hello all!

 

I am planning an ultra grab and go system with the following setup- 70 ED or APO, TS AZT6 without counterweight and a Manfrotto photo kind of tripod. All together max 8-10kg, ready to go in 2 min, packed in a small bag.

Currently I use the TS 102 FPL53, mostly with binoviewer (awesome scope, awesome combination) and still have 120/600 SW, either on AZEQ6 or on TS AZ5 Alt-Az (Skytee). I am planning to sell my Mak127, which seems redundant after the Apo 102 acquisition, and go towards the above ultra G&G combination. Probably at a later stage, when budget will allow, a bigger apo or a C8.

 

Sometimes it seems to me that I am a little bit lazy  and miss some on spot observations. I have the feeling that is going to take too much time to pack the 102 APO, tripod, eyepieces etc and move to the car, or just to get out from the building to a better observation place. Plus the fact that I have to do minimum 2 trips for all the stuff.

 

I have read also that a 80ED is a little too much for the TS AZT6, hence the call to stay with 70mm aperture. 70mm aperture will lead to 2.2 kg + a small Baader prism + some SLVs or Paradigms, all together up to 2.5 Kg. The 80 ED will have around 0.7-1kg more and a bigger length- 15cm more. All these seems small but i really want to stay with the most minimal configuration to say so- AZT6 + photo tripod

 

The big question is what should I buy- the ED or the FPL53 (also in a small budget  )? My only reference is the 120/600 achro, where at kind of 60x the image is becoming terrible and the 102 FPL53, which is shining up to 300x, without any image brakedown or false colors, absolutely phenomenal with Morpheus or SLV and the MB bino.

 

Is it worth spending close to 600 EUR instead of 370 EUR for FPL53? Have you done any comparison between the 2 glasses? I am just curious if the ED only can go up to let's say 100X- 120X, whatever the 70mm diameter and exit pupil will allow, but with a pure, clean and crisp view like an APO, without false colors or lack of snap on focus. Or just to wait more time for the bigger budget to be ready and FPL53?

 

So friends your experiences and tips are much than appreciated ...

 

Many thanks in advance!

Teleskop-Express: TS-Optics 70 mm F6 ED Travel Refractor with modern 2" RAP Focuser

Teleskop-Express: TS-Optics Doublet SD Apo 72 mm f/6 - FPL53 / Lanthanum Glass Objective

~

Wrong thread?

 

 

.

[Marian M]

Dear Don,

 

Many thanks for your opinion and, let me acknowledge,  this was unexpected 😇

I must acknowledge that I have to change my mind setup- probably I am between the few amateurs who are buying first the mount and after that the scope. My first acquisition was the ST 120/600 + EQ5 at once (replaced after with a TS Skytee). Second, AZEQ6 at once with Mak127. The last more than enough for the 2 scopes.  But with a plan to go either a C8, or Mak 180, or maybe a larger refractor in the future, after taking some time to explore it.

 

Unfortunately, in between I got used with rock steady mounts, with over-mounted scopes, with GO TO or slow-mo. And I saw also many times scopes not touchable to avoid the view disturbance, on very poor mounts.

 

Let me start reading here on Stellarvue M2C or similar and give a chance to the thought. Around the house probably is the best idea

 

But, while traveling and moving around, I will still look for a small scope giving me smiles for any 5 minutes caught somewhere on the night road, independent with the lens diameter and resolution 😄

 

Highly appreciated your comments, everything you write about eyepieces is like the holy bible to me.

 

Thanks for the post!

[Paz]

I have a 72mm and 102mm scopes that cover slightly different roles.

My 72mm scope is mostly for travel where size is a limiting factor, and it is used sometimes at home where I want a set up I can have ready indoors and lift straight outside in one hand i.e. super fast.

My 102mm if for home use but takes 2 trips to set up rather than one one to take out a mount and one to take out the scope. It's not as fast as the above, but it is still fast and therefore I rarely use the 72mm at home as the 102 beats it overall when considering the relationship between set up time and quality of the views.

Whether you go for FPL53 or something less expensive is a judgement call but I would say in my set up the limiting factor for enjoyment is not the scope but the tripod. I use a light Neewer carbon fibre tripod with an AZT6. The AZT6 is fine but the tripod could be better, it is brilliant for lightness and small pack down size but the vibes are more than I would prefer. Overall though I am happy with the compromise.

So if thinking about how much to spend and what makes for good value, if I was starting again in my case there could be something to be said for thinking through having a lesser quality (or lighter) scope on a higher quality mount for a better overall experience (by the way the ST80 is great in this respect - it is not such high end optics but it is very light for its aperture and it is flattered by lesser mounts/tripods).

[Marian M]

Dear Paz,

 

Thanks a lot for your thoughts!

 

My observational behavior is probably similar:

• Once in a month most likely outside the city, with the whole arsenal
• Few times in a month on the balcony (east oriented), when planets, moon or big DSO are there. Even if the current setup allows as weight one single trip, as logistics seems a little dangerous to carry all at once, apo, binoviewer + another bag with adaptors and eyepieces etc, hence 2 trips
• There are moments when the fun part is on other directions, most of the moments with limited time (after the job). To get there should get outside the building, go between buildings and go on the 10^th floor on an open car parking (by walk around 10- 15 min walk/ elevators). Also there are the moments of traveling, holidays when a small companion scope can be a joy, hence the idea of an ultra-grab & go setup

 

I would appreciate to share few more thought on the AZT6, as the SGL don’t have so many threads on this. Is it acceptable as stability and manual tracking for a scope up to 3-4 kg? The benchmark after reading here is that can handle decently a 72ED but is too much for an 80ED.

Last, I am planning below budget tripod aside the AZT6, would you have any suggestion around it- this one from specs seems taking 10 kg.

 

Attaching a picture with current setup.

Thanks a lot!

 

Mach3 AL Series 2 Tripod, 3 Section, Twist Lock, Monopod Conversion. | Benro (benrousa.com)

 

 

[John]

Hi,

I am relatively inexperienced in the world of small scopes but I have recently acquired a 70mm F/6 ED refractor and just this week a TS AZT6 alt-azimuth head which I am using on a Slik Master Classic aluminium photo tripod.

I've only used this setup a couple of times but I can report that the AZT6 copes quite well with the 2.2kg 70mm refractor and the total weight of the setup (including 1.25 inch diagonal, finder and a 20mm SWA eyepiece) is no more than 5kg, so really pretty easy to move about. 

Being realistic, I think an 80mm ED doublet type refractor might be pushing the mount too far without adding a counterweight and associated bar to the other side. Something I was keen to avoid to maintain maximum compactness. It would probably require a stouter tripod than I am using as well. 

I used the scope up to 140x magnification and, although there was some vibration for a couple of seconds after I had adjusted the focus, the view settled enough for me to split double stars down to 2 arc seconds separation.

My little refractor is just one of the Altair ones that uses an FPL-51 (or equivalent) ED element in the objective so there is a small amount of CA around bright targets in the F/6 optics but I feel it's reasonable for the price paid.  More importantly (to me) the objective seems well figured and polished and gives a good star test and shows tight star images even at 50x per inch of magnification. I don't image - I just observe.

I tend to agree generally with the views on small apertures posted by Don Pensack earlier in this thread but my little setup will at least ensure that I can have a telescope with me when I travel whereas before I've been limited to binoculars. 

I hope that helps a little with your decision making 🙂

 

 

 

Edited March 20, 2023 by John

[Aquavit]

I have been using my 80ED extensively on the AZT6 mounted on a lightweight  Manfrotto photo tripod, sometimes with counterweight and sometimes without. Yes it was more stable and balanced with the counterweight but was very useable without, in both instances settle time was a little more than I would like but the weak link was really the tripod. Proof of this was when I acquired a Berlebach Uni tripod, moving the AZT6 to the Uni gave me a much more solid platform, virtually eliminating settle time even without the counterweight.

I have a padded storage bag that takes the scope, mount and tripod that makes for a great transport/holiday option without the counterweight, but I may consider upgrading the tripod to something more stable. 

[Paz]

21 hours ago, Marian M said:

Dear Paz,

 

Thanks a lot for your thoughts!

 

My observational behavior is probably similar:

• Once in a month most likely outside the city, with the whole arsenal
• Few times in a month on the balcony (east oriented), when planets, moon or big DSO are there. Even if the current setup allows as weight one single trip, as logistics seems a little dangerous to carry all at once, apo, binoviewer + another bag with adaptors and eyepieces etc, hence 2 trips
• There are moments when the fun part is on other directions, most of the moments with limited time (after the job). To get there should get outside the building, go between buildings and go on the 10^th floor on an open car parking (by walk around 10- 15 min walk/ elevators). Also there are the moments of traveling, holidays when a small companion scope can be a joy, hence the idea of an ultra-grab & go setup

 

I would appreciate to share few more thought on the AZT6, as the SGL don’t have so many threads on this. Is it acceptable as stability and manual tracking for a scope up to 3-4 kg? The benchmark after reading here is that can handle decently a 72ED but is too much for an 80ED.

Last, I am planning below budget tripod aside the AZT6, would you have any suggestion around it- this one from specs seems taking 10 kg.

 

Attaching a picture with current setup.

Thanks a lot!

 

Mach3 AL Series 2 Tripod, 3 Section, Twist Lock, Monopod Conversion. | Benro (benrousa.com)

 

 

That tripod in the link looks a bit like mine, and as I mention mine is great for light weight and small pack down size but it's not as sturdy as I would like. Here's my set up...

[Mr Spock]

For my ultimate ultra-light grab and go I've gone the other way. I use a 60mm FS-60CB on a Slik photo tripod. It's something I can carry round a bird reserve when I'm using it in terrestrial mode.

[John]

2 hours ago, Mr Spock said:

For my ultimate ultra-light grab and go I've gone the other way. I use a 60mm FS-60CB on a Slik photo tripod. It's something I can carry round a bird reserve when I'm using it in terrestrial mode.

That is the same tripod that I am using - the Slik Master Classic. A very good tripod I think although I'm no expert in these things. I did try my 70ED with the standard head you are using with your Tak 60 and it worked quite well but I think I prefer the AZT6 for astronomy use with that scope.

It is nice to have complete setups like these that can be carried with one hand 🙂

[Mr Spock]

On 11/03/2023 at 22:31, Don Pensack said:

Nor do they have sufficient resolution to show small details on planets or moon well.

But isn't it about size and portability. My 60mm manages to show belt detail on Jupiter at an admittedly dark x148; it's not like the Starfield 102mm of course, and not anywhere close to the 12" Dob - I thought about sticking on that as a finder  But it does as well as it can for 60mm.
It also gives some pleasing widefield views from dark skies. 

[Don Pensack]

2 hours ago, Mr Spock said:

But isn't it about size and portability. My 60mm manages to show belt detail on Jupiter at an admittedly dark x148; it's not like the Starfield 102mm of course, and not anywhere close to the 12" Dob - I thought about sticking on that as a finder  But it does as well as it can for 60mm.
It also gives some pleasing widefield views from dark skies. 

Well, that just it.  The small scope yields views at low power and with wide fields not possible in a larger scope.

It's the reason I still have a 4" refractor to accompany the 12.5" newtonian.  Two completely different views.

 

BTW, the reason you saw any SAEP/Blackouts with the 13mm T6 Nagler were likely the fact that that eyepiece requires that you hover above the eye lens.

The eyecup is a bit too short to allow it to touch the face, so it's quite possible to get too close to the lens, inside the exit pupil, despite having only 12mm of eye relief.

That would make it nearly impossible to use standing, as well.  But, sitting, and holding the eye in the right place, it's free of SAEP and blackouts, at least as far as I can tell.

The entire T6 series took a little getting used to.

[In contrast, the 14mm Vixen SSW was a very difficult eyepiece to use and exhibited quite noticeable SAEP]

 

[Mr Spock]

If they are that difficult to use I don't see the point. I want to enjoy what I'm looking at not fiddle around with eye position to get the best view.

[Marian M]

Many thanks to all of you!

Once will acquire the setup, will post here with the final call 😀 + first feedback 

[Marian M]

Hi friends!

The 3 pieces are all together 😍: TS 72 FPL53, Benro TMA47AXL tripod and Benro S8PRO fluid video head. The small scope is a little overmounted 😀

Weights: the telescope (2.2kg) + bino/ eyepieces (1.8kg) + tripod (3kg) + video head (2.7 kg), leads to 9kg cyclop mode/ 10 kg bino mode. Not that easy but can be very easy handled with a single hand.

I did some tests last evening and the tripod and fluid head are handling extremely easy the 72. Video heads movement and astro dedicated mounts is something not comparable at all, but there are advantages and disadvantages on both, both for spotting during the day or astro during the night. I have tested 102 APO with bino and, surprise, was handled with ease as well. The fluid head wasn't reaching the max counterweight, just 5 out of 8. The balance position is critical, but after that the scope was remaining steady in any position left. Last, we tested the 120ED with heavy bino and, shock, the video head was yet keeping decently the scope. Disclaimer- for 102/ 120, after focusing, there is 1 second / 2 seconds of wobbling; the day was windy, both 102 and 120 were wobbling again but aside this the image was rock steady, without the face touching the eyepieces. 

 

Still need to optimize the setup with some shorter adapters and longer plates, hence will revert again with updates after much more testing.

 

All in all, extremely happy with the new acquisition. There is a big difference between 72 and 102, but there is a lot of fun just to take it outside in one hand and come back 10 minutes later, if time does not allow

[MalcolmM]

5 hours ago, Marian M said:

there is a lot of fun just to take it outside in one hand and come back 10 minutes later, if time does not allow

For me, this is really important and you can still get lots of fun and great views with a 60/70mm scope. My grab 'n' go is 60mm and not only can I lift the whole scope/mount/tripod with 2 fingers, I can pack it all into a small rucksack and take it on a plane as hand luggage. 

Malcolm 

[John]

9 minutes ago, MalcolmM said:

For me, this is really important and you can still get lots of fun and great views with a 60/70mm scope. My grab 'n' go is 60mm and not only can I lift the whole scope/mount/tripod with 2 fingers, I can pack it all into a small rucksack and take it on a plane as hand luggage. 

Malcolm 

Me too, where a very light rig is needed. My 70mm F/6 plus mount plus tripod plus diagonal etc comes in at a touch under 5kg all up. Even a weakling like me has no trouble picking this up with one hand ! 

 

[Marian M]

Last evening it was the first clear sky after a while, without Moon, and I was able to look for some DSOs. The 72 aperture does not allow too much from a Bortle 7 sky but yet there are objects to look for. From a video head is easy to find and track a very bright object, like Moon. I was afraid about finding less brighter objects like DSO but wasn't so difficult. The 30mm Lacerta ED gave a too wash sky. The winner was APM 13mm/ 100 degrees, with about 33x magnification, 3 degrees on the sky and 2.2 exit pupil. Didn't test higher magnification but I have found a good combination of field of view, magnification and dark sky. For the next round of observations for sure I have to look with other eyepieces as well.

 

The 3 DSOs seen were M92, M5 and M13. With Stellarium and some brighter stars as reference, using same eyepiece and somehow learning the correlation between what I see and the app map, each of the 3 DSO was pretty easy to find. With the 33 magnification no details within the DSO but easy seen as object, with a very pleasing view.

What was surprising, was the fact that M57 Ring nebula didn't show up. It was very low on the sky (30 degrees only above a very polluted sky), but no trace of anything, even if I spent a lot of time or using peripheral vision.

All in all a joy for one hour from the balcony. The Clear Outside app doesn't encourage with the next day prognosis, hence these days I will be using it mostly as spotting scope 😀 

[Louis D]

Don't be afraid to push up the magnification into the 75x to 100x range to see if smaller DSOs like M57 become easier to pick out.  At 33x it's basically stellar in appearance.

[Marian M]

The sky was cloudy all these days but one more round of observations last evening. Target- double double in Lyra and M57 again.

Setup 1- same 72 APO, with MB2, GPC 2.6, Morpheus 17.5 and 9 (magnification 62x and 120x). Double double was split moderate easy with Morpheus 17.5. 2 of the 4 stars were split easy, while the other 2 were difficult to see, but yet visible. Moving to Morpheus 9, the split was easier but the image wasn't so sharp/ clear/ defined like with the Morpheus 17.5. Unfortunately, no hint at all for M57. Same polluted sky, Lyra about 35 degrees above horizon, only peripheral vision

Setup 2- the 72 with Baader GPC 2.6 left in the prism, APM XWA 13 mm (magnification probably around 70x). Double double was lesser visible than through bino, but- surprise- some trace of M57. I was visually recording the position of the nearby stars from Stellarium, and with peripheral vision only it was there, like a very fade shadow.

Next target was the Albireo double, easily split, with the nice yellowish and blue star.

Some further upgrades of the scope are to come, I will keep you posted