Newb to Astrophotography. Need assistance in selecting eq.

[TrojanMan]

It has been a dream of mine to get into astrophotography for decades. I owned a cheap scope before but it never worked right so I got rid of it years ago. I am willing to spend some bucks on the equipment but want to make sure I get the right stuff for what I am wanting to image. I understand the mount is the most important part. I was looking at the SkyWatcher EQ6R PRO for the mount. Beyond that I have very little idea what the best equipment would be.

I would like to image the gas giants fairly well and deep sky objects such as Andromea, Triangulum, etc very well.

I have been reading a refractor would be a good choice for my desires. I am not against a dedicated astro camera but would prefer a consumer type dslr to use for other purposes

Would like some recommendations on a good scope and all accessories required to image these object well without spending a ton of money.

Mount, scope, spotting scope, camera, filters, and any other accessories. 

 

Thanks!

[Rallemikken]

You can't have your cake and eat it too. One size doesn't fit all. As a compromize, I'd go for a HEQ5 and a 6" f/4 newt with a Canon (600D?) DSLR in the back. You'll need a coma corrector and a DSLR-adapter. Most newt's comes with the standard 9x50 finderscope. Put the cheapest and smallest (sensor) color camera behind that, and you have a guide scope. Adapters are available. With this combo you will frame the whole Andromeda, but it will be tight. With a fullframe (Canon 5D MkII?) you will have plenty of space. When time comes for planet hunting, you replace the coma corrector with a beefy barlow or powermate, and move the little guide camera from the finderscope to the newt. You can even put one barlow on top of another, been there, done that, but it will be shaky.

The nice thing about the HEQ5 is that it often can be sold for more than you paid yourself if you get your hands on a used one. Nice if you will upgrade later. And the fast newt's are always in demand secondhand. Worth considering if this is your first rig. You learn as you go, and this will be a combo that will take decent pictures without costing to much.

 

 

Edited January 15, 2023 by Rallemikken

[ONIKKINEN]

How much exactly are you willing to spend? There is no single setup that can be used as an example without a specific sum of money in mind. Are we talking 2000£/€/whatever after the mount or are we talking less? Are we talking 5k for the scope and stuff? No upper limit, but there is a reasonable lower limit for everything you want to do and likely you will have to take some compromises on the list of stuff you want to do.

Also how much do you want to do planetary and how much you want to do DSO? Scopes that excel at both are either very expensive, difficult to use, fantasy, or a mix of all 3.

[Elp]

Generally the only gas giants you'll image decently will be Jupiter and Saturn via a longish focal length scope (though I've managed decent first attempts with a 400mm refractor). The newt recommendation maybe best bang for buck though you'll need to be able to collimate (it's not difficult), and have a sturdy tripod.

Your latter paragraph kind of threw a spanner in the works, none of this usually comes cheap, especially with AP.

Edited January 16, 2023 by Elp

[900SL]

Deep sky objects like Andromeda, the Veil, Pleiades and the Rosette are much larger than planets, with the exception of the moon. They are also dimmer. This requires shorter focal lengths, 'fast' focal ratios, long exposure photography and tracking 

Conversely, planets are typically much brighter than DSO's, and require many short exposures at long focal lengths

Additionally, several DSOs emit light in specific wavelengths that are on the limit of what a normal DSLR can record.

And then there is light pollution. 

As focal length goes up, so does cost and difficulty (exponentially)

The above are not necessarily aligned. A good beginner DSO set up will be useless for planetary, apart from the moon.

What is your budget, what is your light pollution and do you plan to have a fixed or portable set up?

 

 

 

 

 

[ollypenrice]

Planetary and deep sky imaging are entirely different, any attempt to do both with the same setup being doomed to severe compromises. On top of that, planetary requires a long focal length and long focal length deep sky imaging is very difficult. I would choose between them and start from there.

Next, decide on how difficult you want it to be. For deep sky imaging a short focal length, fast F ratio apochramatic (it must be apochromatic) refactor is easiest. It's the closest you'll get to 'plug and play.'

Escpecially since dedicated CMOS cameras have appeared at reasonable prices, I would ditch the idea of using a consumer camera. Mine is a minority opinion, here, but I absolutely do not subscribe to the view that a DSLR is a good place to start. Start with a tool made for the job.

Olly

 

[TrojanMan]

My budget is 6-8k USD. I figured I would have to make some consessions between DS and planets but I would lean toward DSO. EQ recommendations appreciated.

My last paraphrase was meant to mean best bang for the buck in that price range.

Thanks

Edited January 17, 2023 by TrojanMan
Added context

[TrojanMan]

However anything under that amount listed in previous reply that will accomplish what I am looking for would be great. Just want to take great pics of DSOs.

If I wanted to switch to planets what scope should I use? I assume I can use the same mount and most if not all the same accessories,  camera, etc?

Thanks

[teoria_del_big_bang]

On 15/01/2023 at 21:31, TrojanMan said:

It has been a dream of mine to get into astrophotography for decades. I owned a cheap scope before but it never worked right so I got rid of it years ago. I am willing to spend some bucks on the equipment but want to make sure I get the right stuff for what I am wanting to image. I understand the mount is the most important part. I was looking at the SkyWatcher EQ6R PRO for the mount. Beyond that I have very little idea what the best equipment would be.

I would like to image the gas giants fairly well and deep sky objects such as Andromeda, Triangulum, etc very well.

This question has been asked so many times in my short time as a member of SGL, and 5 years ago myself included.

And like the very good advise above that there is no real setup that will do for both, and this is very true but also the techniques of obtaining the data and processing the data,  even software to an extent are different.
Even DSO.s really require different scope/ camera  combinations due to the wildly differing sized of these objects., but that's not an issue as there are plenty of targets out there for whatever setup you have to keep you gooing for many years. 

So as above advice I would pick one avenue to start with, the learning curve is steep enough as it is and trying to do both right from the off will do nothing but slow you down getting to grips with everything.

For me a decent refractor seemed the easiest route, with a DSLR and a decent mount that will allow you to progress to what will probably be a heavier setup.

I started with a WO72 with dslr and  used that without guiding to start with as that again adds complexity you can do without until you at least get some sort of images under your belt.
I fairly soon though decided I wanted to go mono and a filter wheel as my light pollution meant most of my imaging was narrowband, however there are good dual or triband filters to do sme sort of narrowband with a colour camera about now, also as Olly says above a DSLR (even an astro modded one that means you then cannot really use for daytime photography may not give you the best results a dedicated CCD will.

So some aspect of your choice of whether you go DSLR, OSC (one shot colour) CCD or mono CCD may  depend on your location and the amount of light pollution.

Most of all keep in mind to walk before you can run, unless you are extremely luck or just a genius there will be a learning curve and great images will not come with any setup straight out of the box, no matter how much your budget is.
$6K to $8K is a very decent budget for a starter setup, don't get me wrong that amount is easy to spend (far too easy) but is also a lot more than many people start out with.

First purchase ?
Has to be the book Every Photon Counts and read it through, every page, several times, at same time ask plenty of questions on SGL, it will pay you dividends in the end and stop you buying stuff you regret.

THis is a great hobby and if you are determined you will thoroughly enjoy it as well as the great company and advice from SGL members 🙂 

Most of all enjoy the journey 🙂 

Steve

Edited January 17, 2023 by teoria_del_big_bang

[TrojanMan]

After researching a bit more with some recommendations, is the following eq a good start?

SkyWatcher HEQ5 Mount
SkyWatcher EvoStar 80ED APO Refractor
ZWO ASI183MC Pro CMOS Camera

Those 3 items are about $3500. What are all the accessories I would need such as filters, adapters, etc? Do I need a spotting scope, and if so whats a good one that can be mounted on the above? Would the HEQ5 mount be able to accommodate a larger scope if I decided to upgrade later?

I appreciate the replies.

Thanks!

[Elp]

Your budget is very accomodating. I think you need to do a bit more research in what's needed, I've spent probably 5 years plus buying and selling equipment to get to where I am today using various types of scopes and camera lenses.

The above relates to accessories, you'll need to budget for dovetails, fixings, adaptors, filters (though not essential), cables, power sources (if needed) etc etc.

The three items you've listed are decent though I've only got experience with the 183 mono. You need to decide what you want to image first, it's either going to fall under planetary (solar system objects, the sun will need additional solar filters/equipment and a short FL scope to get the whole sun/moon in view), galaxies or deep sky (nebulae etc). You can utilise one scope as a general purpose (I've done it) but it won't necessarily excel at everything. So you have to decide first. Once you have a plan then you dedicate a considerable proportion of your budget into the mount + tripod, as it will also dictate your upgrade route (you will upgrade, usually the scope is the first to change).

[Petrol]

I'd say it's best to decide on planetary OR deep sky for starters. A planetary rig won't be much use for deep sky objects and vica versa. There aren't many planets you can realistically image but there are many deep sky objects.
Like many members on this forum, I'm from UK and the typical concensus is that the skies in Texas have insane light pollution. I have travelled all over Texas and was shocked how good the skies were. Of course in major cities it was bad but on the whole, it was much better than here.

[Elp]

16 minutes ago, Petrol said:

A planetary rig won't be much use for deep sky objects and vica versa

You can do it with a Celestron SCT and a hyperstar (the OP has the budget for it too), best of all worlds, but I wouldn't recommend it as a first setup. Taking your first image is a struggle in itself. An additional point is post processing skills, most detail comes from the ability and knowledge of using computer software to get the most out of the images captured. How is the OPs skills in this regard?

[TrojanMan]

3 hours ago, Petrol said:

I'd say it's best to decide on planetary OR deep sky for starters. A planetary rig won't be much use for deep sky objects and vica versa. There aren't many planets you can realistically image but there are many deep sky objects.
Like many members on this forum, I'm from UK and the typical concensus is that the skies in Texas have insane light pollution. I have travelled all over Texas and was shocked how good the skies were. Of course in major cities it was bad but on the whole, it was much better than here.

Texas is a BIG State. Even many of my own countrymen don't know how big it is.  We don't measure distance in miles. We measure it in hours. "How far is it to San Antonio? About 5 hours." West and Central Texas is basically empty. 

That being said I happen to live in a metro area where light pollution would need to be accounted for.

 

I have settled on starting with deep sky objects. I think I'd rather do the Skywatcher EQ6R PRO mount due to higher weight capacity (for upgraded scopes) and its belt drive which I understand is better than gears.

Is the price difference between an 80mm and 120mm scope worth it? I don't want to go too overboard but I also don't want to upgrade shortly after getting started.

My plan is to spend big on the mount and go more on the starter side for the scope and accessories. 

[TrojanMan]

3 hours ago, Elp said:

You can do it with a Celestron SCT and a hyperstar (the OP has the budget for it too), best of all worlds, but I wouldn't recommend it as a first setup. Taking your first image is a struggle in itself. An additional point is post processing skills, most detail comes from the ability and knowledge of using computer software to get the most out of the images captured. How is the OPs skills in this regard?

I learn new things by trial and error. That is what makes me good at my job. While I have little experience in image post processing, being in the IT field I have little doubt I can pick this skill up after said trial and error.

[900SL]

7 hours ago, TrojanMan said:

Texas is a BIG State. Even many of my own countrymen don't know how big it is.  We don't measure distance in miles. We measure it in hours. "How far is it to San Antonio? About 5 hours." West and Central Texas is basically empty. 

That being said I happen to live in a metro area where light pollution would need to be accounted for.

 

I have settled on starting with deep sky objects. I think I'd rather do the Skywatcher EQ6R PRO mount due to higher weight capacity (for upgraded scopes) and its belt drive which I understand is better than gears.

Is the price difference between an 80mm and 120mm scope worth it? I don't want to go too overboard but I also don't want to upgrade shortly after getting started.

My plan is to spend big on the mount and go more on the starter side for the scope and accessories. 

Yes. Mount is everything. EQ6R Pro has a lot of fans. Heavy but will work, there's a lot of users and info on tuning and fixing on line. 

Personally I have settled on 90mm f6 as a good DSO FOV scope. This pairs well with a 3.76 micron sensor ( look up pixel scale and sampling - relationship between focal length and sensor pixel size) and is pretty 'fast' with a 0.8 reducer/flattener (look up field curvature) so can capture data reasonably quickly.

Most mounts have errors in tracking due to tolerances in machining etc. This is called periodic error. Longer focal lengths are affected by this and this limits exposure time unless 'guiding' is used. Look up guiding.

For starter set up I'd recommend ASI Air Pro based system. Many will disagree because it ties you to ASI cameras etc but it is idiot proof and beginner friendly.

I'd go for 533mc pro, good sensor with no amp glow, easy to use and calibrate.  You can use dual narrowband filter with this in light polluted area

Guiding I'd get a mono camera like an ASI 178MM and 50mm aperture guide scope. 

 

 

Edited January 18, 2023 by 900SL

[barbulo]

With your budget, why not both planetary and DSO?

EQ6-R Pro + refractor (don't forget the field flattener) + cheapo maksutov ($500-ish) + planetary cam (used as guide cam when DSO imaging) + DSLR + filter.

Later on, you can add an astro-dedicated camera (perhaps a mono one with a filter set).

Just my 2-cents.

[CraigT82]

14 hours ago, TrojanMan said:

Just want to take great pics of DSOs.

You could post up some great DSO images you've seen (with credit) and we could guide you in the sort of kit you'd need to produce the same kind of image?

[Elp]

The eq6 will be a good purchase, I wouldn't discredit a harmonic drive mount though as these do without counterweights and can carry relatively large payloads.

Regarding scope, get the largest aperture you're willing to deal with which your mount will handle with ease as they'll gather light faster at better resolution than smaller aperture scopes. You whole imaging setup Inc scope as a very general rule shouldn't exceed half of a mounts max payload. Refractors are generally hassle free out the box but larger ones with fpl53 or fluorite glass cost more money due to their control of RGB focal scatter. A Newtonian astrograph might be a good choice too, Orion used to make a cost effective line but changed to carbon fibre which shot the prices through the roof.

[TrojanMan]

Updated eq list:

EQ6-R Pro
$2,025.00

From <https://www.skywatcherusa.com/products/eq6-r-pro> 

Explore Scientific 102mm FCD100 f/7 ED APO Triplet Refractor
$2000

From <https://optcorp.com/collections/refractor-telescopes/products/explore-scientific-102mm-fcd100-refractor> 

ZWO ASI533MC Pro USB3.0 Cooled Color Astronomy Camera
$800

From <https://optcorp.com/products/zwo-asi533mc-pro-usb3-0-cooled-color-camera> 

ZWO ASIAir Plus Wireless Camera Controller for Astrophotography
$300

From <https://optcorp.com/products/zwo-asiair-plus-wireless-imaging-controller> 

Explore Scientific Field Flattener f/5 to f/7
$150

From <https://optcorp.com/collections/explore-scientific/products/explore-scientific-field-flattener-f-5-to-f-7> 

ZWO 1.25" H-alpha Filter - 7nm
$130

From <https://optcorp.com/collections/narrowband-filters/products/zwo-1-25-ha-filter> 

ZWO ASI120MM Mini Monochrome CMOS Camera
$150

From <https://optcorp.com/products/zwo-asi120mm-mini> 

William Optics 50mm Rotolock Guide Scope - Red
$153

From <https://optcorp.com/products/william-optics-50mm-rotolock-guide-scope-red> 

 

Anything else i need to buy, cables, adapters, filters, etc?

 

As for pictures this would be the ultimate goal:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andromeda_Galaxy#/media/File:Andromeda_Galaxy_560mm_FL.jpg
I have no doubt this will take a massive learning curve and much trial and error and new equipment to achieve this goal. If the listed eq above can do even a fraction of that I would be happy.

 

Thanks! I appreciate the help

[CraigT82]

16 minutes ago, TrojanMan said:

As for pictures this would be the ultimate goal:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andromeda_Galaxy#/media/File:Andromeda_Galaxy_560mm_FL.jpg
I have no doubt this will take a massive learning curve and much trial and error and new equipment to achieve this goal. If the listed eq above can do even a fraction of that I would be happy

That image is like a punch in the face! There’s a lot wrong with it but I understand how it appeals to someone new to the astrophotography game.

You could great images of M31 quite easily as it’s a big and relatively bright object and it doesn’t take much in the way of expensive equipment to do. 

The shopping list you’ve put together is a good place to start, you wouldn’t get much use out of the 7nm Ha filter with the 533mc though, it’s meant to be used with monochrome cameras. With a colour camera you could make use of one of the various dual band filters like this , more expensive but more useful with a colour camera (and there are cheaper brands out there too)

https://www.firstlightoptics.com/light-pollution-reduction/idas-nbz-dual-band.html

Things you haven’t listed are:

-Power (battery or mains?)

-UV/IR cut filter

-laptop or tablet to control ASAIR

-software for calibration, stacking, processing

-dew straps and controller

 

 

 

 

[nfotis]

Hello there, and welcome.

DSO objects have very different requirements from planetary imaging/observation.

For DSO, a refractor around 80-100mm aperture is the most accommodating optical instrument. A doublet with ED glass is the minimum, a triplet is quite better in color correction (but more heavy and expensive). Focal distances (without flattener/reducer) are around 500-700mm (less if you use a reducer/flattener).

For planetary imaging, you don't even need a guiding scope, most are shooting fast video sequences over a minute or so (typically around 3-4 thousand frames), then stack the best 30% of frames or so. A large aperture and long focal distance are useful, catadioptric scopes of the Cassegrain family have an advantage (like Schmidt-Cassegrain such as the Celestron C8 or Maksutov-Cassegrain like the Skymax 150-180). These work best with small sensors when hunting planets.

You may want to check your field of view with various cameras/scope combination, to get an idea of what framing you can expect with various target, try this link:

https://astronomy.tools/calculators/field_of_view/

The EQ6-R mount is a popular selection and good value for money. The only bad thing is its weight. iOptron CEM mounts are lighter for the same payload, but pricier.

I don't know about your light pollution, but I suppose that you live in an urban area, so you may need to take it into consideration.

 

Hope this helps,

N.F.

 

[ONIKKINEN]

1 hour ago, TrojanMan said:

Updated eq list:

EQ6-R Pro
$2,025.00

From <https://www.skywatcherusa.com/products/eq6-r-pro> 

Explore Scientific 102mm FCD100 f/7 ED APO Triplet Refractor
$2000

From <https://optcorp.com/collections/refractor-telescopes/products/explore-scientific-102mm-fcd100-refractor> 

ZWO ASI533MC Pro USB3.0 Cooled Color Astronomy Camera
$800

From <https://optcorp.com/products/zwo-asi533mc-pro-usb3-0-cooled-color-camera> 

ZWO ASIAir Plus Wireless Camera Controller for Astrophotography
$300

From <https://optcorp.com/products/zwo-asiair-plus-wireless-imaging-controller> 

Explore Scientific Field Flattener f/5 to f/7
$150

From <https://optcorp.com/collections/explore-scientific/products/explore-scientific-field-flattener-f-5-to-f-7> 

ZWO 1.25" H-alpha Filter - 7nm
$130

From <https://optcorp.com/collections/narrowband-filters/products/zwo-1-25-ha-filter> 

ZWO ASI120MM Mini Monochrome CMOS Camera
$150

From <https://optcorp.com/products/zwo-asi120mm-mini> 

William Optics 50mm Rotolock Guide Scope - Red
$153

From <https://optcorp.com/products/william-optics-50mm-rotolock-guide-scope-red> 

 

Anything else i need to buy, cables, adapters, filters, etc?

 

As for pictures this would be the ultimate goal:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andromeda_Galaxy#/media/File:Andromeda_Galaxy_560mm_FL.jpg
I have no doubt this will take a massive learning curve and much trial and error and new equipment to achieve this goal. If the listed eq above can do even a fraction of that I would be happy.

 

Thanks! I appreciate the help

Youd be surprised how quickly you start to take images that resemble or greatly surpass the typical google image search or wikipedia image.

From your list i would point out a few things. First, the Asiair. Great product BUT it locks you to ZWO products forever, so not the best choice in my opinion. I dont mean to start another mini-pc vs Asiair debate but you mention IT and so being tech savvy, i would recommend you replace the Asiair with a win10/11 pro mini-pc that you control with a tablet or phone via remote desktop. That way you have freedom of software and brand of camera, and ultimately a longer lasting product because of that.

This was maybe not good advice for a total beginner to AP but you seem to be the type of person to figure out the tech side of things.

Another point in the list, which couples with the mini-pc thing is a camera with a larger sensor, namely the IMX571 APS-C sized one. Sold under many names, like the ZWO 2600MC, QHY268, Altair 26C, Rising Cam ATR3CMOS26000KPA (great name). The ZWO one is not the cheapest choice and its not even close. This will be more expensive than the 533, but in my opinion well worth it.

Rising cam from Aliexpress at 1260 USD (legit seller): https://m.aliexpress.us/item/2255801172998984.html?pdp_npi=2%40dis!USD!US %241%2C355.00!US %241%2C260.15!!!!!%402103309e16740606543726436e8c5d!12000027453462720!sh01&spm=a2g0n.store_m_home.productList_2222141.0&_fs_=true&gatewayAdapt=glo2usa4itemAdapt&_randl_shipto=US

Altair astro 1165 GPB: https://www.altairastro.com/altair-hypercam-26c-aps-c-colour-tec-astronomy-camera-16bit-6451-p.asp

I think these are the cheapest ones at the moment. Not sure how taxing and customs will affect the prices for a Texas buyer though.

[Elp]

Also consider used, I think I've seen a few good items on astromart but it's USA only, you'll save a considerable amount of money and you'll know by speaking to the sellers and what they say whether said items have been looked after.

Guidescope any 50mm with helical focuser will do, don't necessarily need the William Optics one (the helical focuser makes focusing the guidecam so much easier).

You might need a cable from the controller to the mount, typically they're usb to rj12/45 types like an eqdir or eqmod cable, some mounts are connected via a normal usb cable. The camera should come with all cables needed as will the asiair.

For galaxy imaging you don't really need any filters due to the target being broadband.

You might need some m42/m48 spacer rings (maybe one or two m48 to m42 step down rings, it all depends on how you'll connect it all up) to get the right backfocus for your camera based on the field flattener/reducer you use.

Maybe a dovetail bar and/or tube rings if the scope doesn't come with them.

You'll know once you start getting things coming through and trying to put it all together indoors, can't really account for absolutely everything you'll need until the need arises.

[TrojanMan]

1 hour ago, ONIKKINEN said:

Youd be surprised how quickly you start to take images that resemble or greatly surpass the typical google image search or wikipedia image.

From your list i would point out a few things. First, the Asiair. Great product BUT it locks you to ZWO products forever, so not the best choice in my opinion. I dont mean to start another mini-pc vs Asiair debate but you mention IT and so being tech savvy, i would recommend you replace the Asiair with a win10/11 pro mini-pc that you control with a tablet or phone via remote desktop. That way you have freedom of software and brand of camera, and ultimately a longer lasting product because of that.

This was maybe not good advice for a total beginner to AP but you seem to be the type of person to figure out the tech side of things.

Another point in the list, which couples with the mini-pc thing is a camera with a larger sensor, namely the IMX571 APS-C sized one. Sold under many names, like the ZWO 2600MC, QHY268, Altair 26C, Rising Cam ATR3CMOS26000KPA (great name). The ZWO one is not the cheapest choice and its not even close. This will be more expensive than the 533, but in my opinion well worth it.

Rising cam from Aliexpress at 1260 USD (legit seller): https://m.aliexpress.us/item/2255801172998984.html?pdp_npi=2%40dis!USD!US %241%2C355.00!US %241%2C260.15!!!!!%402103309e16740606543726436e8c5d!12000027453462720!sh01&spm=a2g0n.store_m_home.productList_2222141.0&_fs_=true&gatewayAdapt=glo2usa4itemAdapt&_randl_shipto=US

Altair astro 1165 GPB: https://www.altairastro.com/altair-hypercam-26c-aps-c-colour-tec-astronomy-camera-16bit-6451-p.asp

I think these are the cheapest ones at the moment. Not sure how taxing and customs will affect the prices for a Texas buyer though.

I have plenty of experience with Raspberry Pi's and it looks like you can make a controller out of one with the INDI packages. Would/Could this perform the same functions as the ASIAIR?