NINA, framing issues

[Craig a]

I’m wondering now it’s it’s a bug and re center disappearing is a mistake 

[Likwid]

3 minutes ago, Craig a said:

I’m wondering now it’s it’s a bug and re center disappearing is a mistake 

That is exactly what I am wondering now as well.

[teoria_del_big_bang]

I cant image anything as too cloudy but I can power up my rig and see what I am on.

I think this is maybe getting beyond me as I have not really done much at all regarding mosaics but I think when I did it I didn't really do much regarding plate solving whilst in framing assistant and just used it to set the frames I wanted, then (without slewing and centring at that stage) I just sent them to the sequencer and made sure that slew to target and centre were enabled in each of the panels I had elected to use in the sequencer and it just worked when I started the sequencer so it did all the plate solving in the sequencer.

But again when initially setting the panels in the framing assistant I am sure I had to click recentre image before sending to sequencer (but I could be wrong).

But it is not only mosaics the OP is having issues with so it almost looks like it is the fact he cannot hit recentre image.

Steve

[Craig a]

It’s got me stumped too, if re center  disappearing is a bug it won’t be long till it’s fixed we will have to wait and see 

[Likwid]

9 minutes ago, teoria_del_big_bang said:

I cant image anything as too cloudy but I can power up my rig and see what I am on.

I think this is maybe getting beyond me as I have not really done much at all regarding mosaics but I think when I did it I didn't really do much regarding plate solving whilst in framing assistant and just used it to set the frames I wanted, then (without slewing and centring at that stage) I just sent them to the sequencer and made sure that slew to target and centre were enabled in each of the panels I had elected to use in the sequencer and it just worked when I started the sequencer so it did all the plate solving in the sequencer.

But again when initially setting the panels in the framing assistant I am sure I had to click recentre image before sending to sequencer (but I could be wrong).

But it is not only mosaics the OP is having issues with so it almost looks like it is the fact he cannot hit recentre image.

Steve

NINA has a Discord server, so I may jump on there when I get home to see what they have to say about "Recenter Image". If I find out anything good, I will let everyone know. Thank you all so much for the help today, I appreciate it.

[Craig a]

4 minutes ago, Likwid said:

NINA has a Discord server, so I may jump on there when I get home to see what they have to say about "Recenter Image". If I find out anything good, I will let everyone know. Thank you all so much for the help today, I appreciate it.

👍 

[scotty38]

I might have missed it but if not can you try using ASTAP for plate solving and see what happens?

[teoria_del_big_bang]

I have just plugged everything in and I am not on latest NINA but on version 2.0 HF2 Beta013 but wants to update/

However I also do not have the recentre image button, and maybe it is not required anymore because the coordinates move as the panels are moved about and so when you send the panels of the mosaic to the sequencer the correct coordinates for the shifted panels are sent to the sequencer and so long as slew and centre are ticked in the sequencer (for each mosaic panel) it should work.
What is  meant to happen in NINA if you elect to do a platesolve then in the imaging tab and not use the sequencer I cannot comment as I have never tried but not sure where it would take its coordinates from and I cannot try it till a clear night.

I guess asking on Discord maybe the best way to go but please update this thread with anything you find.

Steve

Edited October 18, 2022 by teoria_del_big_bang

[Likwid]

13 hours ago, scotty38 said:

I might have missed it but if not can you try using ASTAP for plate solving and see what happens?

Oddly enough, when I use ASTAP for Plate Solving, NINA doesn't tell my mount to go anywhere. It thinks it is slewing, and then settles but doesn't actually move. That is actually why I started using Astrometry. Hopefully I will have some time after work today to hop on to the NINA Discord and talk with the developers about it. I'll make sure to update everyone after!

[scotty38]

I think this is telling, do you see no astap errors at all, do you have astap set up ok, databases installed etc?

To be honest the preference from the devs will be to use astap I fear anyway....

Edited October 19, 2022 by scotty38

[edarter]

I don't think 10s should be an issue, I use the same exposure for plate solving without issue, albeit with an NEQ6 Pro. It does track after slew as well.

Not sure if I'm misunderstanding something with your procedure but heres what I do for a Mosaic:

1 Find target in Stellarium and import in to NINA framing assistant
2 Set up the framing and Mosaic as required
3 Click on 'Replace as sequence' button
4 Go to sequence tab and set up exposures, dithering, tracking etc
5 Hit the go button!

Works like a charm. Mount slews from the park position, plate solves, adjusts and then gets on with the session. You can of course replace line 1 with 'Find in NINA sky atlas'. It may be that there is a bug in NINA with the slew or centre buttons in the framing assistant? My process above doesn't use them and so may explain the difference?

HTH

Ed

Edited October 19, 2022 by edarter

[teoria_del_big_bang]

26 minutes ago, edarter said:

I don't think 10s should be an issue, I use the same exposure for plate solving without issue, albeit with an NEQ6 Pro. It does track after slew as well.

Not sure if I'm misunderstanding something with your procedure but heres what I do for a Mosaic:

1 Find target in Stellarium and import in to NINA framing assistant
2 Set up the framing and Mosaic as required
3 Click on 'Replace as sequence' button
4 Go to sequence tab and set up exposures, dithering, tracking etc
5 Hit the go button!

Works like a charm. Mount slews from the park position, plate solves, adjusts and then gets on with the session. You can of course replace line 1 with 'Find in NINA sky atlas'. It may be that there is a bug in NINA with the slew or centre buttons in the framing assistant? My process above doesn't use them and so may explain the difference?

HTH

Ed

I think that's more like I would do it, maybe I would import form Stellarium or use another image or sky atlas.
What I was trying to iterate is to let the sequencer do the slewing and plate solving rather than going to the imaging tab and platesolving from there. 
Now it maybe that the OP has done that process of plate solving in the imaging tab before and it worked and now it does not, now that maybe something that has changed in NINA. I cannot comment on that as not something I have ever tried to do, personally I just would not know where the plate solving would take its coordinates from to platesolve, and so never tried. 
But, also there is no real need to do that if it is all set up in the sequencing so long as you select slew and centre in each of the mosaic rames in the sequencer (and rotate if you have a rotator) then that just works.

Steve

Edited October 19, 2022 by teoria_del_big_bang

[Craig a]

1 hour ago, scotty38 said:

I think this is telling, do you see no astap errors at all, do you have astap set up ok, databases installed etc?

To be honest the preference from the devs will be to use astap I fear anyway....

That’s a good shout I.e the Astap databases, but then wouldn’t his plate solve fail even on a single image and not just a mosaic he says it works on doing single pane images 

Edited October 19, 2022 by Craig a

[scotty38]

1 hour ago, Craig a said:

That’s a good shout I.e the Astap databases, but then wouldn’t his plate solve fail even on a single image and not just a mosaic he says it works on doing single pane images 

I think he's used Astrometry mainly, not sure he's had ASTAP do anything. The reason he'll be asked to use ASTAP is that it's way faster given the local database install, it may even fix the solving discrepancies too which is why I want to try it.

[Likwid]

10 hours ago, scotty38 said:

I think he's used Astrometry mainly, not sure he's had ASTAP do anything. The reason he'll be asked to use ASTAP is that it's way faster given the local database install, it may even fix the solving discrepancies too which is why I want to try it.

Actually, I just checked the offline program I was using and it was using "All Sky Plate Solver" and not ASTAP. When I was using All Sky before, it Plate Solved and tried to tell NINA where to go. NINA thought it was slewing but the motors wouldn't move at all. Then it would take the 10 seconds to settle, take another image which would be the exact position it was in before and go in an infinite loop. I went back to using Astrometry as my main Plate Solving source and it just worked great until I started playing with the Frame Assistant. I am installing ASTAP and the database on my imaging PC now, and I believe it will be clear on Friday so I will give it a whirl then! Thank you everyone!

[StarryEyed]

I had a similar problems solved with the ASTAP larger database longer exposures and less gain longer settle times making sure sync is turned off in ascom. There's a reluctantance to go down this route in the hope of quicker acquisition of the target but it just needs to work and my old EQ5 is erratic at best and I got it to work reliably. 

Limited to short unguided frames but I take lots of them. But thats something else altogether. 

Edited October 20, 2022 by StarryEyed

[Likwid]

So I am out tonight, and I tried using ASTAP with the same issue. It looks like the image is off just about the same as it was previously. I wasn't able to get any screenshots because I was working 2 different telescopes at the same time. I got frustrated and didn't want to waste another night fighting with the mount, so I am just imaging. Considering that both ASTAP and Astrometry are doing the same thing in the same way, it either has to be NINA or my mount causing the issue.

[teoria_del_big_bang]

I am still a bit confused, when is the plate solving putting the frame in the wrong position  ?

IF you frame the image with the framing wizard (just 1 frame not a mosaic), moving the frame to where you want it, and you then send this to the sequencer, I understand that that so far looks correct and you have it in the sequencer (for now let's say using the simple sequencer) and that the coordinates look right  - is my understanding correct so far ?

Do you then rotate the camera to make it somewhere near same rotation as the frame , or just want the centre of the frame to be in correct position and not bother with the angle of the final image ?

So if then you make sure slew + centre are checked in the sequencer and then set the sequencer running (after adding the frames required) does it work correctly and take the images with the centre of the image in the same place as the centre of where you framed it OR does it still take the images in the wrong position with some offset ?

So that is not doing any plate solving in the imaging tab, maybe just doing focus to ensure focus is correct before just letting the sequencer go.
I just can't see it not working if it has the correct coordinates in the sequencer., so many people use it and do not report any issues.

Steve

Edited October 22, 2022 by teoria_del_big_bang

[scotty38]

I just read through this again so as Steve says above I couldn't spot anywhere where after you've modified framing manually you then go and similarly rotate the camera etc. Unless you do this then the discrepancy is to to be expected, maybe this is the piece we've been missing hopefully.....

[Craig a]

I’m totally baffled by this now, I Carnt see Nina getting it wrong if the co ordinates are correct, somthing is different between the mounts co ordinates and what Nina’s coordinates are that’s the only thing I can think of now, if it was me I would got back to the very beginning and set the software up again, you say your using the synscan app I’ve never used it but does the app agree with Nina on co-ordinates and any other info?

[teoria_del_big_bang]

19 minutes ago, Craig a said:

I’m totally baffled by this now, I Carnt see Nina getting it wrong if the co ordinates are correct, somthing is different between the mounts co ordinates and what Nina’s coordinates are that’s the only thing I can think of now, if it was me I would got back to the very beginning and set the software up again, you say your using the synscan app I’ve never used it but does the app agree with Nina on co-ordinates and any other info?

If slew and centre are checked in the sequencer then the mount doesn't come into the equation because NINA would just use platesolve and correct the mount position to set the camera in the correct position (unless platesolving fails bit then the sequence should fail and stop). regardless of where the mount thinks it is.
Well that's how I perceive it should work  

Steve

[Likwid]

I am honestly completely baffled. Ok, this is exactly what I did last night: I changed to ASTAP and went into Sky Atlas to type in my target. In this case, I want to do a widefield view of NGC 6992 and NGC 6960, so I type NGC 6992. I click slew to get my telescope in the general area, so it can then figure out the rotation in the next step. I click Open in Framing Assistant, which brings me to the window and automatically loads the image of the region. I click Determine Rotation, and the preview box changes angle accordingly. I want to a mosaic, so I change Vertical Frames to 2 because of the current angle. I move the frame to center the entire Veil Nebula region as shown in my previous screenshot. I click Load Image again to center the mosaic in Framing Assistant. I click Slew and Center and it put NGC 6992 way into the upper right of the frame, half cut off. I think that I just didn't put the mount EXACTLY in the home position because I am human, and Plate Solving will correct that for me, because that is the point of it. Plate Solving does what it does and makes small adjustments to the mount and then says it is successful. I take look at the last image that was taken to determine if it actually framed correctly, and NGC 6992 is still in the upper corner of the screen, cut off. Based on how I framed it in the mosaic, it should almost be in the center of Frame 1. That is when I got frustrated, cleared the data in Sky Atlas and typed in M31. Clicked set as Simple Sequence, Slewed, went to the Imaging Tab and did a Plate Solve. M31 was perfectly centered as it should be, I started guiding and then I started taking 5 minute subs of M31 that were perfect. This is why it is so baffling. Single targets work flawlessly every time. Whenever I go into Framing Assistant and change anything about the framing, everything falls apart. It is supposed to be clear tonight again, so I will try to take a video or get screenshots of what is happening. This is so frustrating because I built this rig specifically to take mosaics. I want to essentially do a mini sky-survey and image the whole Milky Way. That is not going to happen if my mount can't figure out where it is pointed.

Edited October 22, 2022 by Likwid
Added more information

[teoria_del_big_bang]

Okay I think I am understanding a bit more.
So did you do the plate solving before running or passing the frames to the simple sequencer, i.e. use the imaging page to plate solve ?

If so and you  used the plate solving in the imaging tab I am not sure where it would platesolve to because you have 2 frames and I am not convinced NINA is setup to always assume it is frame 1 you want to centre on so it may well pick a spot in the middle of both frames, or maybe even just use the centre of the original image.
It would need to be asked on Discord what the action of NINA would be in that case.

What I would do if doing a mosaic is just pass the two frames across to the simple sequencer, where you have previously said that all seems to work correctly and you end up with 2 tabs on the sequencer page for frame 1 and frame 2, then set up your required images, exposures, filters, dither etc, then make sure that in both frame table you select centre and slew checkboxes along with any other things you require such as focussing and just set the sequencer running.
I am sure it will work, there is no need to platesolve outside the sequencer.

Now I am not 100% about all this but I would say 90% sure as I have used it, albeit not too frequently, and it just works.

Steve

[teoria_del_big_bang]

Actually my workflow if doing a mosaic would probably be as follows:

1. pick the target
2. slew to target and track, probably it would guide at that point as well automatically.
3. I might then play about with framing assistant to see how many frames I need and what rotation I would want on the camera but after getting an idea of what I want just go back to one frame for now.
4. At this stage I would just centre on the main nebula, galaxy etc and run auto focus.
5. I might also run a platesolve just to check it all works, just on the single frame.
6. I would rotate camera if I need to, I have a rotator connected to NINA so platesolving on the single frame does the rotation automatically
7. Then use the framing assistant to set the frames for a mosaic and position them where I want them with sufficient overlap.
8. Send the frames to the simple sequencer.
9. Set my imaging required, check all checkboxes in the sequencer I require as in previous post and press run sequence.

Steve

Edited October 22, 2022 by teoria_del_big_bang

[Likwid]

4 hours ago, teoria_del_big_bang said:

Actually my workflow if doing a mosaic would probably be as follows:

1. pick the target
2. slew to target and track, probably it would guide at that point as well automatically.
3. I might then play about with framing assistant to see how many frames I need and what rotation I would want on the camera but after getting an idea of what I want just go back to one frame for now.
4. At this stage I would just centre on the main nebula, galaxy etc and run auto focus.
5. I might also run a platesolve just to check it all works, just on the single frame.
6. I would rotate camera if I need to, I have a rotator connected to NINA so platesolving on the single frame does the rotation automatically
7. Then use the framing assistant to set the frames for a mosaic and position them where I want them with sufficient overlap.
8. Send the frames to the simple sequencer.
9. Set my imaging required, check all checkboxes in the sequencer I require as in previous post and press run sequence.

Steve

That is essentially what I am doing currently. I have been trying to do a mosaic, but let's say I type in NGC 6960 and bring it into the Frame Wizard. My rotation is parallel to NGC 6960 currently. Since there is a lot of interesting nebulosity between NGC 6960 and NGC 6992, I wanted to capture that in my frame the day I found out about this issue. I typed NGC 6960 into Sky Atlas, imported into Frame Assistant, determine rotation, and instead of centering NGC 6960, I wanted to move it to the "top" of the frame and have all the extra nebulosity "below" it to take up the whole frame. When I hit Slew and Center, it did a "successful" plate solve and NGC 6960 was cut off in the frame. This happens whether it is a mosaic that I am planning, or just messing around with the framing of a single image. Right after that, I just went straight from Sky Atlas to Simple Sequencer and did a plate solve there to center NGC 6960 and it was dead center of the frame. Honestly, if every single plate solve was off consistently in the same direction, I would say it is some weird thing with the mount coordinates or how NINA is talking to my mount. It's absolutely baffling that this in only happening when I use Frame Assistant, and it works flawlessly if I go straight to Sequencer with the default DSO coordinates. I will try to get some screenshots or a video tonight. The other thing is that I have an ASIAir Plus backordered. Maybe that will talk correctly to the mount if it ever ships lol. Are there any other free suites that will help plan a mosaic like NINA does? If it does the same thing in a different program, then it is definitely the mount. If it works fine in a different program, then it is NINA causing the issue.