A sensible plan for starting?

[Ratlet]

Hi,

I was wanting to get my logic checked for my plan for starting out with astrophotography.

I want to see if doing the hobby is as fun as watching you lot make it appear.  

My thinking is that I get an az GTi in equatorial mode, canon DSLR, and some vintage lenses (135mm and 200mm takumar) and go for it.  Oh and a powerpack and intervalometer and mounting bracket and...

There almost seems to be no end of pretty things that look good in those focal lengths.

Seems like there is a lot to learn and by minimising the equipment and focal length I'll make life a bit easier on myself.  I've been on astrobin and I'm quite impressed what the old lenses can do (chromatic aberration and all).

There almost seems to be no end of pretty things that look good in those focal lengths.

The gargantuan thread on the az GTi/EQ on here has me sold on it as a small scale mount.

In terms of progress this presents an organic and flexible 'upgrade path', so long as I am realistic about the capability of the mount.

Guiding would obviously benefit, but if I keep the focal lengths down I shouldn't need it initially.  Shorter subs will have to do.  Once I figure out the basics I can worry about guiding.  That then opens up other possibilities.  But that is for down the road.

The main appeal to me of this route is that it seems low risk (light weight, quick setup, minimise the amount of new things to learn in one go, minimise frustration) but also everything remains useful going forward since the az GTi is still a very portable system compared to the big mounts.

So basically:

Keep it simple and avoid buying stuff which you'll need to replace later because you didn't buy right in the first place

 

Seem reasonable?

[Same old newbie alert]

No probs with kit other that a Az GTi?  You be better off with a equatorial mount... something like a ioptron star tracker, or skyguder pro skywatcher star adventurer, ioptron 26, astrotrac , or even a eq3... Az mounts will create field rotation and give you Issues.. unless you put it in a wedge to make it equatorial

Edited March 17, 2022 by Same old newbie alert
Added info

[Ratlet]

56 minutes ago, Same old newbie alert said:

No probs with kit other that a Az GTi?  You be better off with a equatorial mount... something like a ioptron star tracker, or skyguder pro skywatcher star adventurer, ioptron 26, astrotrac , or even a eq3... Az mounts will create field rotation and give you Issues.. unless you put it in a wedge to make it equatorial

That's true.  I'm planning Equatorial mode so will need the wedge (and couterweights, etc)

Edited March 17, 2022 by Ratlet

[LaurenceT]

8 hours ago, Ratlet said:

Hi,

I was wanting to get my logic checked for my plan for starting out with astrophotography.

I want to see if doing the hobby is as fun as watching you lot make it appear.  

My thinking is that I get an az GTi in equatorial mode, canon DSLR, and some vintage lenses (135mm and 200mm takumar) and go for it.  Oh and a powerpack and intervalometer and mounting bracket and...

There almost seems to be no end of pretty things that look good in those focal lengths.

Seems like there is a lot to learn and by minimising the equipment and focal length I'll make life a bit easier on myself.  I've been on astrobin and I'm quite impressed what the old lenses can do (chromatic aberration and all).

There almost seems to be no end of pretty things that look good in those focal lengths.

The gargantuan thread on the az GTi/EQ on here has me sold on it as a small scale mount.

In terms of progress this presents an organic and flexible 'upgrade path', so long as I am realistic about the capability of the mount.

Guiding would obviously benefit, but if I keep the focal lengths down I shouldn't need it initially.  Shorter subs will have to do.  Once I figure out the basics I can worry about guiding.  That then opens up other possibilities.  But that is for down the road.

The main appeal to me of this route is that it seems low risk (light weight, quick setup, minimise the amount of new things to learn in one go, minimise frustration) but also everything remains useful going forward since the az GTi is still a very portable system compared to the big mounts.

So basically:

Keep it simple and avoid buying stuff which you'll need to replace later because you didn't buy right in the first place

 

Seem reasonable?

That's an almost exact mirror of my philosophy in starting astrophotography with the AZ GTI in equatorial mode. Keep it light and simple in respect of the capabilities of the mount in particular and also ones own experience of AP at this stage and, particularly in my case, keep it as cheap as possible. I made a false start using Sony gear as I've been a long time Sony shooter generally and was heavily invested in Sony. Nothing wrong with Sony gear at all but there were limitations when it came to expanding the gear. With Canon or Nikon as a starting point you will have more capacity in terms of gear compatibility.

[Ratlet]

20 minutes ago, LaurenceT said:

That's an almost exact mirror of my philosophy in starting astrophotography with the AZ GTI in equatorial mode. Keep it light and simple in respect of the capabilities of the mount in particular and also ones own experience of AP at this stage and, particularly in my case, keep it as cheap as possible. I made a false start using Sony gear as I've been a long time Sony shooter generally and was heavily invested in Sony. Nothing wrong with Sony gear at all but there were limitations when it came to expanding the gear. With Canon or Nikon as a starting point you will have more capacity in terms of gear compatibility.

Magic.  I've seen your posts on the AZ GTI thread.  That thread and this forum is a big reason for me looking to get into this.  Lots of help and support.

[AstroMuni]

13 hours ago, Ratlet said:

Keep it simple and avoid buying stuff which you'll need to replace later because you didn't buy right in the first place

Thats the route I took as well. Simple scope, camera, good mount and jumped on the AP wagon. After a year I bought the guidescope. So IMO you are on right track I reckon its a bit like moving into a new house. Only when you live there for a few days you realise what else works well with it.

 

[Grant93]

Looks like a sensible start to me. Good thing about having a setup like this is the portability, even when getting a HEQ5 I still find myself using the skyguider+135mm more, because I can be out and within 10mins I'm shooting away, so it doesn't feel like too much effort when you're only going to be shooting for 1 or 2 hours. Only get to take the HEQ5 out on the few and far between weekends that are clear.  So even when you come to purchasing a bigger mount, you still get plenty of use out of the startracker.

[Ratlet]

Cheers folks,

Good job casue I've already ordered the canon T3i and got the Takumar 200mm lol.  Whilst I wait for the mount I'm going to test out some old Nikon lenses I've got and see what they're like for chromatic aberration.  If there are any that are decent I'll keep em and get a converter.  If they're not good, they'll go onto fleabay and help buy me a Samyang 135mm.

[LaurenceT]

The Samyang 135mm is an absolute joy.

[ollypenrice]

I agree with everything except the alt-az mount.  Alt-az is fundamentally wrong for AP* and I believe it's best to use kit which is fundamentally right. My only experience of a 'wedged alt-az' was a nightmare, but you've clearly read up on this and been convinced.  It's just that you're deviating from your intention of getting it 'right first time,' in my view.

While you're thinking about your setup you might also be wanting to be thinking about your image pre-processing and post-processing software. Like many people who've been doing this for a long time, I use a confusing and promiscuous mixture of software. I wouldn't recommend this to a beginner!  I'd nominate Astro Pixel Processor, probably, but there are others which I've never used.

Olly

*Without a field de-rotator.

[Ratlet]

26 minutes ago, ollypenrice said:

I agree with everything except the alt-az mount.  Alt-az is fundamentally wrong for AP* and I believe it's best to use kit which is fundamentally right. My only experience of a 'wedged alt-az' was a nightmare, but you've clearly read up on this and been convinced.  It's just that you're deviating from your intention of getting it 'right first time,' in my view.

While you're thinking about your setup you might also be wanting to be thinking about your image pre-processing and post-processing software. Like many people who've been doing this for a long time, I use a confusing and promiscuous mixture of software. I wouldn't recommend this to a beginner!  I'd nominate Astro Pixel Processor, probably, but there are others which I've never used.

Olly

*Without a field de-rotator.

Cheers man,

Aye.  I had a fair amount of reading up on the mount.  It looks like the az-gti has seen improved performance for equatorial mode since its initial release. 

I'll be honest that I'm still a ways off from dropping money on it and I'm kind of waiting to see if/when the star adventurer GTi actually launches.

In the mean time I've been playing with some freely available subs you can download and practicing image manipulation.  I'm awful but I'm sure it'll come.  Mostly gimp and DSS but I'll try some other software when time allows.

[rickwayne]

I suspect it's common for beginners to underestimate the time and effort required to learn processing -- after all, most people contemplating DSO AP are already acquainted with terrestrial photography and pixel editors like Photoshop or The GIMP, how hard could it be?

Hahahahahaha <snort>.

Hard.

I know that's what I thought, and my awakening was humbling. Very much like when (as an already-expert skier) I took up snowboarding. I mean (WHAM) I just take a bunch of images and (WHAM) put them in a stacking program and (WHAM) out comes my gallery-ready image, right? (WHAM. WHAM. WHAM.)

The main difference was that the loud noises came from my head hitting the desk instead of the snow. Otherwise, a very similar learning experience.

I'm a user, fan, and proponent of Astro Pixel Processor too, so I will acknowledge my bias right up front. But honestly it's the best money I've ever spent in DSO (well, after The Deep-Sky Imaging Primer). If I had to choose only two of the hard-earned lessons from my journey, they would be (1) Don't skimp on the calibration frames -- take and use them, and (2) It really does make a difference if you do as much of your manipulation on linear data, that is, data which have not yet been stretched. So gradient/light-pollution elimination, background neutralization, overall color balance, everything you can do before stretching, you should. DSS is great for stacking but reputedly not the best at the other processes. Siril is also free, multi-platform, and much more powerful.

There are a bevy of other paid programs that each have their proponents, too. Most of them have free trials, so my advice would be to try out a few and see where you feel at home, then learn that program well.

[Elp]

It's not perfect by any means but if anyone's got a doubt about the azgti in EQ mode I'll leave you with this:

[ollypenrice]

15 hours ago, Elp said:

It's not perfect by any means but if anyone's got a doubt about the azgti in EQ mode I'll leave you with this:

Yes, that's great.

Olly

[Ratlet]

 Got a long way to go before I get to that level of quality elp.  It's a great example of what the mount can do but it's also great testament to your skills. 

So far my attempts at image processing have resulted in something that looks... Not good. And that's okay.

Fortunately I know what the problem is.  I have no idea what I'm doing.  Need to understand how the levels and curves work first (what effect on the output the setting have on the input).  

[ollypenrice]

55 minutes ago, Ratlet said:

 Got a long way to go before I get to that level of quality elp.  It's a great example of what the mount can do but it's also great testament to your skills. 

So far my attempts at image processing have resulted in something that looks... Not good. And that's okay.

Fortunately I know what the problem is.  I have no idea what I'm doing.  Need to understand how the levels and curves work first (what effect on the output the setting have on the input).  

If you start with that attitude - ie 'Need to understand,' then you'll succeed.  That's very different from asking, 'What do I click?'  I'd make it a benchmark for selecting tutorials as well.  The moment the video maker says, '...then I just play around with the sliders...' turn them off.  And be warned, there are some truly terrible tutorials out there.

Olly

[Elp]

Thanks. You can go really deep into processing, I try to keep it simple with level adjustment 2-3 times, brightness contrast adjustment, denoise, sharpen areas, duplicate layers for nebulosity enhancement, mask off areas where you don't want to alter. RGB processing is a bit more difficult than narrowband as usually you have to contend with light pollution gradients so I try to counter that with layered gradient fills (I don't use any auto software/plugins).

As a simple guide for you:

Levels (I assume you're using PS or similar interface), you bring the left side (black) slider in (if your image is of space there will be a maxima "hump" toward the left due to the amount of black in the image), move it closer to the left of the hump, don't move it all the way into it as it will clip black/dark data, once it's clipped out you can't get it back until you start again from the unedited image. Bringing it in will darken the image, I tend to leave it a little grey as total black looks odd (and it clips black levels). On the right you'll have the white level slider, bringing it toward the left will make the image brighter (same principle applies, dont move it too much as it will clip white/bright data). Moving the midpoint (grey) slider can help bringing out some clarity. Do the level adjustment just a little bit. Then do it again a few times more until you're happy.

Curves is similar but it's plotted on a graph scale, you can edit RGB as a whole which works like levels or edit each R G B graph individually. You want to have the full rgb histogram open before you adjust curves. Then you click and drag on the graph line to adjust adding new points (if you need to remove any just click and drag them out of the graph area), moving in the lower left quadrant you'll adjust the dark tones, moving in the upper right quadrant you'll adjust the highlights. General rule of thumb is to create a very shallow S curve with points not deviating too far from the original diagonal line (well that's what I do), you'll see with your histogram the Maxima points for each R G B will move about, you want to get them roughly aligned together.

Image processing is largely subjective and part of the fun of AP. There isn't one right wrong rule.

Edited March 19, 2022 by Elp

[DaveS]

For software I'm going to shout out for AstroArt 8. It's your one-stop-shop for capture with guiding, sequencing, autofocus and plate-solve. Then it's a blindingly fast stacker (Though I do occasionally use DSS when AA8 doesn't like the subs), and an underratedly powerful image processor, overlooked in favour of the latest "flavour of the month".

It even has options for comet and spectrum stacking.

Pixinsight may be more powerful, but the trial did my head in. Very (Almost consciously) counter-intuitive and determined to be unlike anything else. Written by mathematicians, for mathematicians.

AstroArt

Edited March 19, 2022 by DaveS
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[Ratlet]

Cheers for the recommendations Daves  I really appreciate it. 

For the time being I'm going to stick to gimp, but at least I don't have to go trawling for recommendations.  I can just come back here for info that is useful to my exact circumstance.

Now I just need to keep out of the classified section lol.

[AstroMuni]

On 18/03/2022 at 08:02, ollypenrice said:

While you're thinking about your setup you might also be wanting to be thinking about your image pre-processing and post-processing software.

Good point. And same goes for understanding the capabilities of your equipment & the related mount, camera management software. What is not clear to most beginners is that capture, guide, platesolve etc. is a small part of AP The difficult and not so cut and dried bit is in the processing and we learn it the hard way.

Edited March 21, 2022 by AstroMuni

[Ratlet]

I've not even got the mount yet lol.  I've seen the Star Adventurer GTI on the horizon and I'm doing my best to hold fast till it comes along and going to get that I think.  In the mean time there is lots I can do to play around with stuff.  Practice my image manipulation, play about with the takumar (the wife is going to make me a bhatinov mask so I can see how that works for focus, I'm going to do some assessment of the chromatic aberration using a diy setup).  I've got some old nikon lenses which I can launch on ebay to get some more funds and an electric piano to go too.  I might get a wide angle lens since milyway season is coming up and there is some great landscape areas about my part of Scotland.

This also gives me some time to marinade in the process and make sure it is for me.  I've a bad habit of picking up hobbies and dropping them in a couple of months (eg the previously mentioned electric piano).

[knobby]

On 18/03/2022 at 16:49, Elp said:

It's not perfect by any means but if anyone's got a doubt about the azgti in EQ mode I'll leave you with this:

+ 1 for the Az-Gti in EQ mode

About 70 mins each of Sii, Ha and Oii

 

[Elp]

@knobby love narrowband how you can keep it relatively short and get fine results.

[knobby]

Cheers, they were 180 second guided subs.

[fwm891]

I've just bought AstroArt 8 having got really frustrated with SG Pro (v4....). I used AA? many  years ago and reloaded the software on an old laptop and away it went like yesterday. Not so many features in the old version and looking at the demo of v8 and comparing it to SGP I made the decision to change over to AA8. Will see how it goes.