Windows 10 (and 11) ad-hoc network, remote desktop

[daz]

I am trying to configure a new mini-PC for remote access for both on and off network, but I think I am missing something obvious here....!

Windows 10 no longer allows network adapters to provide ad-hoc networks (using the netsh wlan commands). Instead, you can only use the Hotspot functionality, but this is designed to share an internet connection between devices - not to operate as an ad-hoc network.

So, I can connect to the mini-PC using Mobile Hotspot, provided the mini-PC is connected to the wireless.

I have found a way to automatically turn on the Mobile Hotspot at boot up - but again, this only works if there is an internet connection - i.e. if I disconnect from wifi, turn off the auto-reconnect and then reboot the mini-PC, it can't enable the Mobile Hotspot!

I'm stuck - but again, I think I'm missing something obvious here....

 

Any suggestions welcomed!

 

 

 

 

 

[ONIKKINEN]

10 minutes ago, daz said:

Windows 10 no longer allows network adapters to provide ad-hoc networks (using the netsh wlan commands). Instead, you can only use the Hotspot functionality, but this is designed to share an internet connection between devices - not to operate as an ad-hoc network.

Not sure what this means? But this is why my mini-pc has never and will never be connected to the internet. Windows updates cant ruin things if i dont update windows 😉.

But i use one of these: https://www.amazon.co.uk/GL-iNet-GL-MT300N-V2-Converter-Pre-installed-Performance/dp/B073TSK26W/ref=sr_1_3?crid=3LKR2H5JTUQY6&keywords=travel+router&qid=1639849166&sprefix=travel+route%2Caps%2C103&sr=8-3

It is connected via ethernet cable to the mini-PCs LAN port and creates its own wifi network. I then connect to this wifi with my tablet via RDP, but you could also connect any other device to it. This works anywhere and doesn't require actual internet connectivity, just a device that can connect to a WIFI network. I dont think the mini-PC knows or cares where the network comes from as it just "receives it" from the travel router, so might not apply for whatever is no longer allowed on WIN10?

[Stuart1971]

8 minutes ago, ONIKKINEN said:

Not sure what this means? But this is why my mini-pc has never and will never be connected to the internet. Windows updates cant ruin things if i dont update windows 😉.

But i use one of these: https://www.amazon.co.uk/GL-iNet-GL-MT300N-V2-Converter-Pre-installed-Performance/dp/B073TSK26W/ref=sr_1_3?crid=3LKR2H5JTUQY6&keywords=travel+router&qid=1639849166&sprefix=travel+route%2Caps%2C103&sr=8-3

It is connected via ethernet cable to the mini-PCs LAN port and creates its own wifi network. I then connect to this wifi with my tablet via RDP, but you could also connect any other device to it. This works anywhere and doesn't require actual internet connectivity, just a device that can connect to a WIFI network. I dont think the mini-PC knows or cares where the network comes from as it just "receives it" from the travel router, so might not apply for whatever is no longer allowed on WIN10?

You can create a hotspot on windows 10 anyway, why do you need the travel router….?

[ONIKKINEN]

9 minutes ago, Stuart1971 said:

You can create a hotspot on windows 10 anyway, why do you need the travel router….?

How would i create the hotspot if i cant access the PC? I dont have a monitor/keyboard/mouse or anything to connect to the PC in the field. Could i configure the hotspot to be created automatically? Honestly didn't know this was an option.

[daz]

40 minutes ago, Stuart1971 said:

You can create a hotspot on windows 10 anyway, why do you need the travel router….?

Not any more - at least, as far as my digging around this afternoon has concluded....

Microsoft have changed the model for the drivers, so they no longer are allowed to support SoftAP and the HostedNetwork services. So you can't create a hotspot. 

Unless there is something I've missed Stuart? All the articles I have come across refer to the 'netsh wlan' commands, but because the NIC drivers no longer supported the hosted networks, it doesn't work...

 

@ONIKKINEN - in W7 (and earlier versions of 10) you could create a simple script that would create the hotspot and start it, and then execute that at boot time - and bongo! your hotspot would be created ready for you...

The external router was my next thought, but have been doing some more playing and think I have a work around.....

• I found a Powershell script to automatically turn on the Mobile Hotspot
• I had to un-restrict scripts from running using Powershell
• I created a Scheduled task to run the script at logon of the mini-PC user, with a 1 minute delay, and only when a specific wifi SSID was available
• Turn on Mobile Hotspot on my phone - use this SSID in the step above
• Connect mini-PC to the phone wifi, set to automatically connect - ensure all others are set to NOT automatically connect
• Using registry keys, enable auto-logon for my mini-PC user (latest updates have removed the tick box in netplwiz to disable the need to login)
• Reboot

 

Bingo!

So, the process now seems to be:

1. Enable hotspot on phone
2. Turn on mini-PC
3. Wait for up to 1 minute
4. Connect to mini-PC mobile hotspot
5. RDP to mini-PC
6. Turn off mobile hotspot on phone

The connection seems to be holding, even though there is no internet connection  on the mini-PC anymore. So, as long as there is one when you start the mobile hotspot, it seems to work. So far.

 

But the external router could well be easier!!!

[ONIKKINEN]

10 minutes ago, daz said:

Not any more - at least, as far as my digging around this afternoon has concluded....

Microsoft have changed the model for the drivers, so they no longer are allowed to support SoftAP and the HostedNetwork services. So you can't create a hotspot. 

Unless there is something I've missed Stuart? All the articles I have come across refer to the 'netsh wlan' commands, but because the NIC drivers no longer supported the hosted networks, it doesn't work...

 

@ONIKKINEN - in W7 (and earlier versions of 10) you could create a simple script that would create the hotspot and start it, and then execute that at boot time - and bongo! your hotspot would be created ready for you...

The external router was my next thought, but have been doing some more playing and think I have a work around.....

• I found a Powershell script to automatically turn on the Mobile Hotspot
• I had to un-restrict scripts from running using Powershell
• I created a Scheduled task to run the script at logon of the mini-PC user, with a 1 minute delay, and only when a specific wifi SSID was available
• Turn on Mobile Hotspot on my phone - use this SSID in the step above
• Connect mini-PC to the phone wifi, set to automatically connect - ensure all others are set to NOT automatically connect
• Using registry keys, enable auto-logon for my mini-PC user (latest updates have removed the tick box in netplwiz to disable the need to login)
• Reboot

 

Bingo!

So, the process now seems to be:

1. Enable hotspot on phone
2. Turn on mini-PC
3. Wait for up to 1 minute
4. Connect to mini-PC mobile hotspot
5. RDP to mini-PC
6. Turn off mobile hotspot on phone

The connection seems to be holding, even though there is no internet connection  on the mini-PC anymore. So, as long as there is one when you start the mobile hotspot, it seems to work. So far.

 

But the external router could well be easier!!!

Thanks for the details, honestly didn't know it was even technically possible!

The travel router method is the same, except steps 1 and 6 are not necessary so maybe a bit easier. There is some initial setup that does require a monitor and peripherals to do in the minirouter settings, but other than that it always creates the network on bootup. The range is not that great though, take that into account. Its meant to be something you use very locally in a public wi-fi, so right next to the device in use. I find that sometimes  i lose connection for a few seconds if im sitting in my car and the telescope is running maybe 5m away. Doesn't really matter though, as the mini-pc will keep on doing its thing regardless of connection to tablet or not.

[Stuart1971]

3 hours ago, ONIKKINEN said:

How would i create the hotspot if i cant access the PC? I dont have a monitor/keyboard/mouse or anything to connect to the PC in the field. Could i configure the hotspot to be created automatically? Honestly didn't know this was an option.

Instructions here and works for me

https://www.wikihow.com/Create-a-Hotspot-in-Windows-10

[ONIKKINEN]

23 minutes ago, Stuart1971 said:

Instructions here and works for me

https://www.wikihow.com/Create-a-Hotspot-in-Windows-10

I dont think my mini-PC has bluetooth, but just a dongle would fix this. Just to be sure, can you actually toggle this connection on without having local access to the mini-pc?

[Stuart1971]

1 hour ago, ONIKKINEN said:

I dont think my mini-PC has bluetooth, but just a dongle would fix this. Just to be sure, can you actually toggle this connection on without having local access to the mini-pc?

Once set up, it works over Wi-Fi…

So each time the PC is booted it creates the hotspot, then you connect to that with any other PC….

[ONIKKINEN]

4 hours ago, Stuart1971 said:

Once set up, it works over Wi-Fi…

So each time the PC is booted it creates the hotspot, then you connect to that with any other PC….

This doesnt work by the way, which is why i use the travel router. Really dont understand why you would say it does.

[daz]

9 hours ago, Stuart1971 said:

Once set up, it works over Wi-Fi…

So each time the PC is booted it creates the hotspot, then you connect to that with any other PC….

The option for remotely enabling the hotspot is no longer available. You need to manually switch it on each time. Hence my post about a scheduled task that switches it on when you log in.

Which does work, BUT.... after a while, the host turns off the connection, presumably because it realises there is no wifi connection....

 

So, looks like it will be the external router option that is needed!

[Stuart1971]

6 hours ago, ONIKKINEN said:

This doesnt work by the way, which is why i use the travel router. Really dont understand why you would say it does.

Well, it worked fine on my win 10 system, but it has not been updated for some time, so thats maybe why, I had no idea they had stopped it working…I used it last about 7 months ago, and it worked then…

[StarryEyed]

Its works on mine with an USB wifi dongle. I run three wifi connections from my laptop the host one for virtual machines and another as a hotspot. Some drivers cant be used for a hotspot. 

To find out if your's can type at a command prompt

NETSH WLAN SHOW DRIVERS

look for 

HOSTED NETWORK SUPPORT : YES

So a USB WIFI dongle might be your solution rather than the onboard WIFI because of the driver. Its best to ensure that the computer does not power down the device for energy saving same for USB dongles that way it should stay up. Mine do.

Here's four WIFI device on my windows laptop, I edited out some filler .....   Some drivers don't support hosted networks but the cheaper generic USB dongles typically do.

Note the drivers for intel (intel chip) and wifi2 TPlink (realtek chip) does not support hosted networks but  wifi3 a generic usb dongle (realtek chip) does. They are different realtek chips but it shows its not clear cut.

So hotspots on windows can be a bit messy. A one stop solution is best if your feeling out of your depth if not even a Raspberry Pi Zero makes a good hotspot if you like Linux.

Hope this helps sometimes its doesn't.

 

U:\netsh wlan show drivers

Interface name: WiFi

    Driver                    : Intel(R) Wireless-AC 9560 160MHz
    Vendor                    : Intel Corporation
    Provider                  : Intel
    Date                      : 03/03/2021
    Version                   : 22.40.0.7
    INF file                  : oem60.inf
    Type                      : Native Wi-Fi Driver
    Radio types supported     : 802.11b 802.11g 802.11n 802.11a 802.11ac
    FIPS 140-2 mode supported : Yes
    802.11w Management Frame Protection supported : Yes
    Hosted network supported  : No
    .....

Interface name: WiFi 3

    Driver                    : Realtek RTL8188CU Wireless LAN 802.11n USB 2.0 Network Adapter
    Vendor                    : Realtek Semiconductor Corp.
    Provider                  : Microsoft
    Date                      : 04/03/2016
    Version                   : 1027.4.630.2015
    INF file                  : rtwlanu_oldIC.inf
    Type                      : Native Wi-Fi Driver
    Radio types supported     : 802.11n 802.11b 802.11g
    FIPS 140-2 mode supported : Yes
    802.11w Management Frame Protection supported : Yes
    Hosted network supported  : Yes
    .....

Interface name: WiFi 4

    Driver                    : 150Mbps Wireless 802.11bgn Nano USB Adapter
    Vendor                    : EDIMAX
    Provider                  : Microsoft
    Date                      : 04/03/2016
    Version                   : 1027.4.630.2015
    INF file                  : rtwlanu_oldIC.inf
    Type                      : Native Wi-Fi Driver
    Radio types supported     : 802.11n 802.11b 802.11g
    FIPS 140-2 mode supported : Yes
    802.11w Management Frame Protection supported : Yes
    Hosted network supported  : Yes
    .....

Interface name: WiFi 2

    Driver                    : TP-Link Wireless Nano USB Adapter
    Vendor                    : Realtek Semiconductor Corp.
    Provider                  : Microsoft
    Date                      : 29/07/2019
    Version                   : 1030.38.712.2019
    INF file                  : netrtwlanu.inf
    Type                      : Native Wi-Fi Driver
    Radio types supported     : 802.11n 802.11g 802.11b 802.11ac 802.11n 802.11a
    FIPS 140-2 mode supported : Yes
    802.11w Management Frame Protection supported : Yes
    Hosted network supported  : No
    .....
    
 

Edited December 19, 2021 by StarryEyed

[Stuart1971]

35 minutes ago, StarryEyed said:

Its works on mine with an USB wifi dongle. I run three wifi connections from my laptop the host one for virtual machines and another as a hotspot. Some drivers cant be used for a hotspot. 

To find out if your's can type at a command prompt

NETSH WLAN SHOW DRIVERS

look for 

HOSTED NETWORK SUPPORT : YES

So a USB WIFI dongle might be your solution rather than the onboard WIFI because of the driver. Its best to ensure that the computer does not power down the device for energy saving same for USB dongles that way it should stay up. Mine do.

Here's four WIFI device on my windows laptop, I edited out some filler .....   Some drivers don't support hosted networks but the cheaper generic USB dongles typically do.

Note the drivers for intel (intel chip) and wifi2 TPlink (realtek chip) does not support hosted networks but  wifi3 a generic usb dongle (realtek chip) does. They are different realtek chips but it shows its not clear cut.

So hotspots on windows can be a bit messy. A one stop solution is best if your feeling out of your depth if not even a Raspberry Pi Zero makes a good hotspot if you like Linux.

Hope this helps sometimes its doesn't.

 

U:\netsh wlan show drivers

Interface name: WiFi

    Driver                    : Intel(R) Wireless-AC 9560 160MHz
    Vendor                    : Intel Corporation
    Provider                  : Intel
    Date                      : 03/03/2021
    Version                   : 22.40.0.7
    INF file                  : oem60.inf
    Type                      : Native Wi-Fi Driver
    Radio types supported     : 802.11b 802.11g 802.11n 802.11a 802.11ac
    FIPS 140-2 mode supported : Yes
    802.11w Management Frame Protection supported : Yes
    Hosted network supported  : No
    .....

Interface name: WiFi 3

    Driver                    : Realtek RTL8188CU Wireless LAN 802.11n USB 2.0 Network Adapter
    Vendor                    : Realtek Semiconductor Corp.
    Provider                  : Microsoft
    Date                      : 04/03/2016
    Version                   : 1027.4.630.2015
    INF file                  : rtwlanu_oldIC.inf
    Type                      : Native Wi-Fi Driver
    Radio types supported     : 802.11n 802.11b 802.11g
    FIPS 140-2 mode supported : Yes
    802.11w Management Frame Protection supported : Yes
    Hosted network supported  : Yes
    .....

Interface name: WiFi 4

    Driver                    : 150Mbps Wireless 802.11bgn Nano USB Adapter
    Vendor                    : EDIMAX
    Provider                  : Microsoft
    Date                      : 04/03/2016
    Version                   : 1027.4.630.2015
    INF file                  : rtwlanu_oldIC.inf
    Type                      : Native Wi-Fi Driver
    Radio types supported     : 802.11n 802.11b 802.11g
    FIPS 140-2 mode supported : Yes
    802.11w Management Frame Protection supported : Yes
    Hosted network supported  : Yes
    .....

Interface name: WiFi 2

    Driver                    : TP-Link Wireless Nano USB Adapter
    Vendor                    : Realtek Semiconductor Corp.
    Provider                  : Microsoft
    Date                      : 29/07/2019
    Version                   : 1030.38.712.2019
    INF file                  : netrtwlanu.inf
    Type                      : Native Wi-Fi Driver
    Radio types supported     : 802.11n 802.11g 802.11b 802.11ac 802.11n 802.11a
    FIPS 140-2 mode supported : Yes
    802.11w Management Frame Protection supported : Yes
    Hosted network supported  : No
    .....
    
 

Ah, yes, I do use a 1200mbps USB 3 Wi-Fi dongle, so this may well be the difference….

[ONIKKINEN]

2 hours ago, StarryEyed said:

Its works on mine with an USB wifi dongle. I run three wifi connections from my laptop the host one for virtual machines and another as a hotspot. Some drivers cant be used for a hotspot. 

To find out if your's can type at a command prompt

NETSH WLAN SHOW DRIVERS

look for 

HOSTED NETWORK SUPPORT : YES

So a USB WIFI dongle might be your solution rather than the onboard WIFI because of the driver. Its best to ensure that the computer does not power down the device for energy saving same for USB dongles that way it should stay up. Mine do.

Here's four WIFI device on my windows laptop, I edited out some filler .....   Some drivers don't support hosted networks but the cheaper generic USB dongles typically do.

Note the drivers for intel (intel chip) and wifi2 TPlink (realtek chip) does not support hosted networks but  wifi3 a generic usb dongle (realtek chip) does. They are different realtek chips but it shows its not clear cut.

So hotspots on windows can be a bit messy. A one stop solution is best if your feeling out of your depth if not even a Raspberry Pi Zero makes a good hotspot if you like Linux.

Hope this helps sometimes its doesn't.

 

U:\netsh wlan show drivers

Interface name: WiFi

    Driver                    : Intel(R) Wireless-AC 9560 160MHz
    Vendor                    : Intel Corporation
    Provider                  : Intel
    Date                      : 03/03/2021
    Version                   : 22.40.0.7
    INF file                  : oem60.inf
    Type                      : Native Wi-Fi Driver
    Radio types supported     : 802.11b 802.11g 802.11n 802.11a 802.11ac
    FIPS 140-2 mode supported : Yes
    802.11w Management Frame Protection supported : Yes
    Hosted network supported  : No
    .....

Interface name: WiFi 3

    Driver                    : Realtek RTL8188CU Wireless LAN 802.11n USB 2.0 Network Adapter
    Vendor                    : Realtek Semiconductor Corp.
    Provider                  : Microsoft
    Date                      : 04/03/2016
    Version                   : 1027.4.630.2015
    INF file                  : rtwlanu_oldIC.inf
    Type                      : Native Wi-Fi Driver
    Radio types supported     : 802.11n 802.11b 802.11g
    FIPS 140-2 mode supported : Yes
    802.11w Management Frame Protection supported : Yes
    Hosted network supported  : Yes
    .....

Interface name: WiFi 4

    Driver                    : 150Mbps Wireless 802.11bgn Nano USB Adapter
    Vendor                    : EDIMAX
    Provider                  : Microsoft
    Date                      : 04/03/2016
    Version                   : 1027.4.630.2015
    INF file                  : rtwlanu_oldIC.inf
    Type                      : Native Wi-Fi Driver
    Radio types supported     : 802.11n 802.11b 802.11g
    FIPS 140-2 mode supported : Yes
    802.11w Management Frame Protection supported : Yes
    Hosted network supported  : Yes
    .....

Interface name: WiFi 2

    Driver                    : TP-Link Wireless Nano USB Adapter
    Vendor                    : Realtek Semiconductor Corp.
    Provider                  : Microsoft
    Date                      : 29/07/2019
    Version                   : 1030.38.712.2019
    INF file                  : netrtwlanu.inf
    Type                      : Native Wi-Fi Driver
    Radio types supported     : 802.11n 802.11g 802.11b 802.11ac 802.11n 802.11a
    FIPS 140-2 mode supported : Yes
    802.11w Management Frame Protection supported : Yes
    Hosted network supported  : No
    .....
    
 

Than you. Mine is unsupported it seems, hence the inability to turn hotspot on.

[daz]

Thanks StarryEyed - the inbuilt wifi does not support it, and neither does my StarTech USB3 dongle.

What version of Windows is that from?

 

[Cosmic Geoff]

I have found that Windows 7 networking always works, but Windows 10 networking is a total pain with devices failing to see each other as often as not.

[StarryEyed]

I am running windows 10.

[malc-c]

I know its not much consolation, but it seems these wi-fi enables mounts and dongles are a PITA.  There are so many threads where people are having issues connecting or making hot spots despite following all the resetting procedures.  Heck we even had one guy driving his mount half a mile down the road so it was well away from other networks.

I'm old school... I have a cat5 cable running between the observatory PC and the switch in the house.  This could still be done if you don't have an observatory, either placing the end of the cable in a bag with one of those silicon bags in with it to absorb dampness, or hard wire to an external weather proof socket and then use a 2m / 3m network cable to the mount.

Networking a windows 7 PC to another windows 7 PC, or a windows 10 PC to windows 10 PC (has to be any other versions than HOME ) is normally straight forward, but networking a windows 7 to windows 10 can sometimes prove problematical due to the tighter security in windows 10.

Anyway, that's my 2p worth... probably not worth much as it may not help, but in the time spent trying to resolve the wifi issue you could have run a length of cat 5 cable   

[Stuart1971]

1 hour ago, malc-c said:

I know its not much consolation, but it seems these wi-fi enables mounts and dongles are a PITA.  There are so many threads where people are having issues connecting or making hot spots despite following all the resetting procedures.  Heck we even had one guy driving his mount half a mile down the road so it was well away from other networks.

I'm old school... I have a cat5 cable running between the observatory PC and the switch in the house.  This could still be done if you don't have an observatory, either placing the end of the cable in a bag with one of those silicon bags in with it to absorb dampness, or hard wire to an external weather proof socket and then use a 2m / 3m network cable to the mount.

Networking a windows 7 PC to another windows 7 PC, or a windows 10 PC to windows 10 PC (has to be any other versions than HOME ) is normally straight forward, but networking a windows 7 to windows 10 can sometimes prove problematical due to the tighter security in windows 10.

Anyway, that's my 2p worth... probably not worth much as it may not help, but in the time spent trying to resolve the wifi issue you could have run a length of cat 5 cable   

Yes, may help some, but I can’t run a CAT5 or 6 cable, due to a full width conservatory on the back of my house, and the glass does not like to have holes drilled through it….😂😂, full glass floor to top….

So Wi-Fi is my only option…👍🏼

[malc-c]

28 minutes ago, Stuart1971 said:

Yes, may help some, but I can’t run a CAT5 or 6 cable, due to a full width conservatory on the back of my house, and the glass does not like to have holes drilled through it….😂😂, full glass floor to top….

So Wi-Fi is my only option…👍🏼

Always drill through the uPVC frames 👍🤔

[Stuart1971]

1 hour ago, malc-c said:

Always drill through the uPVC frames 👍🤔

😂😂 yes was a joke….

[malc-c]

25 minutes ago, Stuart1971 said:

😂😂 yes was a joke….

Humour never comes over well in posts (well not for me as I seem to miss the obvious !! 😳)  I was going to say drilling holes in glass is possible... but thought better of it, your wife might cut off parts of your anatomy if you tried ....!!

[Dr_Ju_ju]

In answer to the original question, which version of Win 10/11 are you using as all my "Pro for Workstations", all have the Mobile Hotspot functionality, but thesystem also detect that there are Ethernet & Wifi adaptors ....  

[daz]

On 21/12/2021 at 11:45, Dr_Ju_ju said:

In answer to the original question, which version of Win 10/11 are you using as all my "Pro for Workstations", all have the Mobile Hotspot functionality, but thesystem also detect that there are Ethernet & Wifi adaptors ....  

W10 Pro - whatever the latest build number is for H2...

And yes, it has the hotspot functionality, but this is different to an ad-hoc network. As per previous posts, the hotspot function is designed as a connection sharing mechanism for other devices to use as their internet connection. It relies on internet connectivity for it to operate. But I didn't want that - I just wanted to be able to connect two computers via wifi so I can RDP to one, but that functionality has now gone.

So, while you can fool the hotspot to make the connection - using my phone in hotspot mode - after a while, the host PC realises there is no internet and disconnects.

 

@malc-c - thanks, but that is not the use case. My observatory is networked, but I am looking to implement the mini-PC for my mobile set up to reduce cabling to the mount. Using the mini-PC, I just now need to provide 12v supply to the mini-PC, and mount the camera and mount USB will plug directly into the mini-PC and I will RDP over wifi from my laptop. 

 

The mini router that @ONIKKINEN linked to is just perfect for the job. It's a tiny thing, about 2" square and 1" high and runs off a micro-USB cable plugged into the mini-PC. I have now configured the mini-PC to connect to that wifi automatically and I can RDP to the mini-PC perfectly!

So, everything is now as I wanted it to operate, it was just a faff because of the changes Microsoft have made in the Windows driver model.

 

BTW - the mini-PC is this one from FLO, and it's a great bit of kit!!