Upgrading from an AZT6 to Berlebach Castor?

[Victor Boesen]

As stated in the title, I'm currently looking into a step-up solution from my TS AZT6 mount which I've used for a couple of years now mostly with my Evostar 72ED on my photo tripod. It's a very light weight and capable setup and I've not had the need to use any counterweights for comfortable use. However, I purchased a 4" APO about 7 months ago which I've been using on the same mounting solution and it's just past the limit of the AZT6's capabilites in my opinion. Works fine for low power observing with slight to no wind around, but it's struggling in windy conditions and at high magnifications.

What am I looking for?

After selling my 10" dob in favor of the 4" apo I've really started to appreciate grab-and-go equipment, hence why I have also never really bothered with goto/EQ mounts (had one some years back. Nothing wrong with it, but it's heavy when counterweights and etc. are included). Because of this I'm preferably looking for a mount I can use both on my Manfrotto tripod for grab-and-go observing like the AZT6 and/or on my stainless steel skywatcher tripod for dual-scope or just more stable/comfortable observing with my 4" apo.

• Light weight and compact mount
• Heavy load capacity for my 4" apo or dual scope setup
• Preferably no need for counterweight with my 4" scope. I'm aware that this comes down to personal preference as to what would be usable.

Some considerations

At first I looked at the Giro Ercole, but then discovered the surprising size and weight of it which turned my attention to the ercole mini instead. Fast forward a month or so and I've begun to look into the Berlebach Castor due to its price, although the information I can find about it is limited. Teleskop-express states a load capacity of 3kg without a counterweight/balance and 8kg with, whereas Berlebach themselves mention 8kg load without counterweight and 20kg total on both sides balanced. These are very different numbers to me, but if the latter is true, it also seems to be a very capable mount even for dual-scope observing with my two refractors or with my 4" apo without the need of counterweights?

• How does the Castor handle heavy (~5kg) single side loads? Without counterweight?
• Would a dual scope setup be possible? Mostly expecting to use the stainless steel tripod in this case.
• Is it a reasonable upgrade from the AZT6 or would the Giro Ercole Mini be the only sensable upgrade?

Final notes

I'm aware that something like the Skytee II or TS AZ5 would also take a high load, but they are portable enough for me unfortunately. Preferably I'm looking for something that would only be limited by the load capacity of my photo tripod and would work wonders on a heavier tripod like my stainless steel tripod. I've seen that @Stu has had a great experience with the Giro GR-2, surely the Castor would perform very similar, or even better? Or is this an incorrect assumption?
The Giro Ercole mini is a strong contester here, but I'd rather not spend that much on a mount. At least not right now

Wow, that was a lot of question marks, sorry Just sharing some of my thoughts/considerations. Hope someone can share some experience! Thanks in advance!

Victor

[Chris]

Hi Victor. Although I've only used the Castor mount with lighter scopes (such as my old Lunt35 solar scope) and it was some time ago now, I still wouldn't doubt that the setup I had would comfortably carry a 4" Apo. However, I did use mine with a counterweight shaft and a solid pier extension which helped with payload,

I can't recall using mine stripped down to the bare bones for the ultimate portability, but it was very well engineered to the point that it's bare bones 8kg payload isn't too surprising.

On paper it's capacity is around double that of the AZT6, so defo an upgrade on paper. 

Dual scopes are no problem as you can purchase a puck for the counterweight shaft side, from what I remember. 

It's very good for it's tiny proportions  

     

Edited June 14, 2021 by Chris

[RobertI]

Hi Victor, I have a Giro-WR which is made by Berlebach and I think is pretty identical in terms of capacity and size to the Castor. It’s a real quality piece of kit and can handle the weight of a 102ED - I think on a sturdy tripod (like the 1.75” steel tripods) it could work for G&G. But one word of warning - my Giro-WR and I’m guessing the Castor has very little ‘stiction’ so it’s hard to find the right tightness on the alt knob which allows easy movement but also stops the scope spinning skywards or ground-wards at high speed and crashing into the legs. Not an issue for my short tube 66/72mm refractors but for longer heavier scopes can become a problem. When there are also heavy/long diagonals and eyepieces and you are moving around the sky it’s a real pain to get this right. I recognise that many other people are very happy with using scopes of this size on them though. The Skytee (which I know is  too heavy for G&G) has the famous sticky glue grease, which provides a lot stiction which I actually like. Opinions vary as always! 😆
 

Edit: I have found a counterweight helps the the azimuth move more freely, even with a small scope attached - it is perfectly usable without but less free and a bit harder to position accurately. Not sure it would be so nice to use with a heavier scope without counterweight though - I’ll give it a go! 

Edited June 14, 2021 by RobertI

[Chris]

Rob brings up a good point! I do remember the axis being very 'free' now he mentions this. I think it was ok getting the right tension but as Rob says you need to watch this when you undo the clutch so the scope doesn't spin! Obviously good balance helps with this and I think it's something you quickly get used to.  

[Stu]

I haven’t used my Giro-WR for a while, tending to save it for when I need something very small, light and compact to take abroad. It is very capable though, particularly in dual scope mode when I find that side to side and front to back balancing is much easier to achieve.

When using a single scope, I do find that a counterweight really helps free up the movement much better, less stiction to start moving the mount than without.

One other point. I did find that the scope was more prone to clashing with the tripod legs observing at high altitudes than with, say, and Ercole because the mount is physically shorter. For that reason I tended to use the Giro-WR with a pillar extension. I made myself one from an aluminium tube which worked well.

Here are a couple of examples of different setups I used with the Giro-WR. It coped with these well, no problem. The black scope is a 106mm triplet, weight about 5.5kg without rings etc if I recall correctly. The weight is not the issue provided the tripod is stable enough, it’s the balance that needs to be right. With a heavy scope without counterbalance then you also have to consider stability of the tripod, a CW can really help this too.

[Victor Boesen]

Thanks to all of you @Stu @Chris and @RobertI

It seems like the Castor is one beefy mount and since Rob mentions it's good for his 102mm, which is basically the same as my scope, I'm convinced that this would be a great upgrade from the AZT6. It also seems that a pier is worth considering so perhaps I'll be looking into a small pier at some point but I don't find it too necessary to begin with. I will get a counterweight shaft to go with the mount as well, if I get picky with the smoothness using my 4" or perhaps want to use a heavier scope at some point!

Cheers guys!

[Ags]

I have an AZT6 and a Castor. The Castor is a definite upgrade and great for dual scope use, in fact I have never tried it with just one! The Castor is a real solid lump of metal and seems to like more not less load, so it seems smoother with my C6 than my little Mak 102. But I have never gone above 5kg on either side. To be honest I  use the AZT6 more with just an ST80 (being lighter and I usually only have one scope out) and I am thinking of swapping my Castor for a SkyWatcher AZ5.

Edited June 14, 2021 by Ags

[Victor Boesen]

15 minutes ago, Ags said:

I have an AZT6 and a Castor. The Castor is a definite upgrade and great for dual scope use, in fact I have never tried it with just one! The Xastor is a real solid lump of metal and seems like more not less load, so it seems smoother with my C6 than my little Mak 102. But I have never gone above 5kg on either side. To be honest I  use the AZT6 more with just an ST80 (being lighter and I usually only have one scope out) and I am thinking of swapping my Castor for a SkyWatcher AZ5.

Exactly the comparison I needed😅  The castor would be my main grab and go mount head if I get one, but also the heavy lifter. I already have the skywatcher AZ4, but I find it quite cumbersome to store and bring around due to its size. I really value portability and don't plan on going much larger than my current 4" APO anytime soon so the Castor was (is still) my main pick due to its size and capabilities.

Thanks!

[jjohnson3803]

On 14/06/2021 at 14:48, Ags said:

I have an AZT6 and a Castor. The Castor is a definite upgrade and great for dual scope use, in fact I have never tried it with just one! The Castor is a real solid lump of metal and seems to like more not less load, so it seems smoother with my C6 than my little Mak 102. [...]  I am thinking of swapping my Castor for a SkyWatcher AZ5.

Curious what tripod(s) people use(d) with the Castor.  I have a ScopeTech Zero and an AZ5 which I use on a Manfrotto 475B, but I was thinking of upgrading (?) to a Castor II.  I think the weak link in my set-up (heaviest scopes are a 102ED and an ST120) might be my Manfrotto though. 

I also have a Twilight-1 tripod (1.5-in legs), but it's a hassle for grab-n-go.

 

[Ags]

Ironically I ended up keeping the ATT6 snd selling the Castor to fund new adventures. Yes the Castor is better, but the AZT6 is lighter and cheaper, factors which make me more inclined to forgive its shortcomings. To answer your question, I always used the Castor on a Berlebach Report 112 tripod, quite short but with 25 kg capacity.

[Victor Boesen]

3 hours ago, jjohnson3803 said:

Curious what tripod(s) people use(d) with the Castor.  I have a ScopeTech Zero and an AZ5 which I use on a Manfrotto 475B, but I was thinking of upgrading (?) to a Castor II.  I think the weak link in my set-up (heaviest scopes are a 102ED and an ST120) might be my Manfrotto though. 

I also have a Twilight-1 tripod (1.5-in legs), but it's a hassle for grab-n-go.

 

The scopetech zero should (haven't tried it myself) be capable to hold both scopes comfortably. I'm using my Castor II on my Skywatcher steel tripod which is very sturdy but not so light weight. Like Ags, I also still use my AZT6 on my Manfrotto XPRO 055 tripod for my Evostar 72ED and on rare occasions also with my 102mm F7. However, I don't find my Manfrotto tripod suitable for my 102mm so would require something more stable.

Victor

[alex_stars]

Hi @Victor Boesen,

I see from your last post that you ended up getting the Castor II. As I am in a similar position as you were, thinking about upgrading from an AZT6 (mine is from Lacerta) to a Castor II or a Giro Ercole Mini, I thought I asked how you like the Castor II.

Guess you use it with your 102mm APO? How is this working out for you?

Any quick feedback on how your experience with the Castor II is would be greatly appreciated.

Alex

[Victor Boesen]

9 hours ago, alex_stars said:

Hi @Victor Boesen,

I see from your last post that you ended up getting the Castor II. As I am in a similar position as you were, thinking about upgrading from an AZT6 (mine is from Lacerta) to a Castor II or a Giro Ercole Mini, I thought I asked how you like the Castor II.

Guess you use it with your 102mm APO? How is this working out for you?

Any quick feedback on how your experience with the Castor II is would be greatly appreciated.

Alex

I'm getting along very well with my Castor II and 102mm APO!

I did consider the Giro ercole mini too while looking for a replacement for my AZT6, however, I ended up with the Castor II as it was slightly cheaper, and I was more drawn to Berlebach's easy way to add another dovetail clamp to the other side for dual-scope use. With that said, it's my impression that both mounts are excellent for "lighter" scopes (eg. not huge fracs, newts and etc). In my opinion, the Castor II is surprisingly stable on a heavy duty tripod, like the Skywatcher stainless steel, and with a counterweight or second scope.

Victor

[alex_stars]

Thanks for the fast reply @Victor Boesen. Funny you mention the Girol Ercole Mini. I just go one used for a cheaper price than the Castor II so I went for that one. I will post my experience here after I set everything up.

Alex

[Victor Boesen]

8 hours ago, alex_stars said:

Thanks for the fast reply @Victor Boesen. Funny you mention the Girol Ercole Mini. I just go one used for a cheaper price than the Castor II so I went for that one. I will post my experience here after I set everything up.

Alex

You're welcome Feel free to share a link in this thread if you decide to collect your thoughts in a separate thread/post!

Victor

[Baatar]

Berlebach Castor II carrying ST120 and 102/F7 triplet refractors.  Castor II advertized capacity is 20kg in total dual mounted.  Two refractors with all accessories are 12kg in total.  Castor II actual capacity might be lower, as this rig is reaching its limits, but stable enough to be usable, maybe also due to Manfrotto heaviest duty tripod.  I use binoviewers on the triplet for high magnification planetary observations (say between x150-200 power), and is still stable enough, and shakes dump very quickly.  For low power wide field views through ST120, stability and shakes are not really issues.

I thought of replacing the Castor II with a heavy-duty Giro Ercole (with 18kg capacity on one side), but Castor II is usable enough preventing me from pulling the trigger on Giro Ercole, at least for now.

Edited March 10, 2023 by Baatar

[jjohnson3803]

On 10/03/2023 at 06:03, Baatar said:

Berlebach Castor II carrying ST120 and 102/F7 triplet refractors.  [...]  Castor II actual capacity might be lower, as this rig is reaching its limits, but stable enough to be usable, maybe also due to Manfrotto heaviest duty tripod.  

Which Manfrotto is that?

 

[Baatar]

On 13/03/2023 at 14:15, jjohnson3803 said:

Which Manfrotto is that?

 

This one:  https://www.manfrotto.com/global/super-professional-tripod-mk2-161mk2b/