How to overcome the problem of long usb 3 runs

[Longinthetooth]

Hi folks and best seasonal wishes!

I want to move my all sky camera to the roof of my house to avoid the bright lights of a car park next door. On the roof the camera would be above those lights so less affected. Currently the camera sits on the side of my astroshed. The camera is usb3 and needs 5.5v and there is a 2.5w dew heater in the case as well. Two cables then - a 4m usb3 and a 4m 12v power cable. They run inside the astrohut and are connected to a 12v DC supply and a W10 SFF PC. The camera is controlled using AllSkEye software. It works great although the usb3 is a little temperamental. It works flawlessly though when connected to a usb2 port. Shorter usb3 cables work fine. I would like, if possible, to keep the hardware I've got rather than start from scratch with Rpi for example.

I haven't measured exactly what the cable run would need to be if the unit was atop my chimney but it'll be in the region of 25 metres. The cables would have to run down the outside of the building so need to be reasonably "weatherproof". There is no power up there either.

Online research -

I've looked at active usb cables but have heard that's a bit hit or miss and I don't know how they would cope with the cold and wet here in Scotland!  Photos of the units don't look exterior quality to me but I could be wrong. (Wouldn't be the first time!)

Utilising cat 6 - usb and power over ethernet with something like this https://www.amazon.co.uk/Extender-165ft-4-Port-Ethernet-Cat5e/dp/B07VN3FBW3/ref=sr_1_7?dchild=1&keywords=usb+over+ethernet&qid=1607897984&sr=8-7   It looks to me as though the receiving box needs a power supply and there is none at roof or even near roof level. 

Usb2 or 3 active optical cable. These cost, it seems, hundreds of pounds so not my first choice.

I'm really not very familiar with what technology would be required. I'd be interested to know how others have overcome the problem of usb, outside, at these distances?

Regards

John B

 

[Dr_Ju_ju]

Instead of long USB runs, which as you've found out, can be very hit & miss, why not site a single board computer (Raspberry Pi, Odroid XU4, Rock64 etc.) in weather proof enclosure, adjacent to the camera, so that you would only need to either run just power, if using Wifi, or power and an ethernet cable, to the enclosure.

You can then remotely control\download the images etc.  

[Longinthetooth]

19 minutes ago, Dr_Ju_ju said:

Instead of long USB runs, which as you've found out, can be very hit & miss, why not site a single board computer (Raspberry Pi, Odroid XU4, Rock64 etc.) in weather proof enclosure, adjacent to the camera, so that you would only need to either run just power, if using Wifi, or power and an ethernet cable, to the enclosure.

You can then remotely control\download the images etc.  

Hi Julian and thanks for your input. I was hoping to steer clear of Rpi since I haven't had any luck with Linux and that opens up a whole new area in which I have no expertise. I actually started out the asc project with Rpi in mind but just couldn't get it all to work together. The Windows 10 PC and AllSkEye software are working great I just need to solve the distance issue! 

[stash_old]

Then just buy a 2nd hand mini pc with w10 installed(and enough usb ports) and what Julian suggests using W10 not RPI or linux.

for example https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Fujitsu-Espirmo-Home-Office-Mini-PC-Core-i5-3rd-Gen-8GB-RAM-500GB-HDD-Win-10/284067942234?hash=item4223c4cf5a:g:LP0AAOSwBGJf0K0d

[Dr_Ju_ju]

You don't have to use a Linux system, there are small board that can run Win 10, e.g. Rock Pi X – HackerBoards.com, and if capable of building a small PC then there are plenty of small form factor motherboards that can be used....

[Longinthetooth]

On 14/12/2020 at 18:36, stash_old said:

Then just buy a 2nd hand mini pc with w10 installed(and enough usb ports) and what Julian suggests using W10 not RPI or linux.

for example https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Fujitsu-Espirmo-Home-Office-Mini-PC-Core-i5-3rd-Gen-8GB-RAM-500GB-HDD-Win-10/284067942234?hash=item4223c4cf5a:g:LP0AAOSwBGJf0K0d

 

On 14/12/2020 at 18:40, Dr_Ju_ju said:

You don't have to use a Linux system, there are small board that can run Win 10, e.g. Rock Pi X – HackerBoards.com, and if capable of building a small PC then there are plenty of small form factor motherboards that can be used....

Interesting. I'd already bought a SFF Windows 10 PC to run the asc 24/7. I hadn't anticipated the light pollution from the car park would be so bad. I was hoping there would be a tried and tested cable solution so all the things that could go wrong (apart from the asc itself) were easily accessible. Having another pc on the roof is just another thing to go wrong!

Anyway - thanks for your suggestions.

JB

[symmetal]

If you just want a USB 3 cable solution, the only way is to use active extension cables like this. Lindy are a reputable brand and they say two cables can be used in series to give 30m. However, while it quotes speeds up to 5Gb/s, this is the theoretical limit of USB3 and the chipsets in the cable active repeaters force a much lower data rate of around 480MB/s which is the same as the top speed for USB2. The power connector at the remote end is to power the remote device if the total power consumed by the camera and the two extender modules may exceed the power supplied by the USB3 socket on the computer.

If you're running a separate 12V cable to power the dew heater, if you find the computer struggles to power the camera you could install a small 12V to 5V buck converter at the camera end to power the USB3. Or perhaps, use a linear regulator like a 7805 on a small heatsink and mount the regulator in the all sky camera to provide the heat instead of the dew heater. 🙂

For an all sky camera the lower speed isn't really an issue as you aren't taking videos. You can use heatshrink tubing over the cable junctions to keep the weather out and if you spray the contacts with something like ACF-50 before sealing them with heatshrink it will inhibit any corrosion.

USB2 active extension cables do the same thing and are cheaper but will be working even slower than their maximum of 480Mb/s.

USB3 communication should be more robust as communication is two-way simultaneously (duplex), while USB2 is only in one direction at a time (simplex). Any errors received in USB3 can be flagged right away to the sender while the USB2 receiver has to wait until the transmission is complete before responding.

Alan

[PlankWithANailIn]

Why do you need USB3 with an all sky camera? It's not going to take high framerate images and it doesn't really matter how long it takes to download the image for time-lapse. If a USB2 cable works good enough just use a USB 2 cable. 

[MaJiC79]

I see several solutions - one is to pack up your corrent computer and put it closer and in the roof near to your camera (use remote desktop to remote onto it), use a Mini-ITX system in a box near to your camera (same as before, but you install Windows Embedded or similar to remote onto it), use a SBC (Single Board Computer - like a Pi) and get Linux working for you (I'm just getting started here, so I don't have any good advice there)

Like Plank says, if USB2 works for you, why use USB3?

[Longinthetooth]

Many thanks for the many suggestions given here. Plenty food for thought!

[M40]

A HUNSN fanless industrial PC on amazon was mentioned on a topic here the other day, looked it up and it seems to be pretty useful. Another option to consider anyway.

[astrorg]

On 14/12/2020 at 17:34, Dr_Ju_ju said:

Instead of long USB runs, which as you've found out, can be very hit & miss, why not site a single board computer (Raspberry Pi, Odroid XU4, Rock64 etc.) in weather proof enclosure, adjacent to the camera, so that you would only need to either run just power, if using Wifi, or power and an ethernet cable, to the enclosure.

You can then remotely control\download the images etc.  

On 14/12/2020 at 17:58, Longinthetooth said:

Hi Julian and thanks for your input. I was hoping to steer clear of Rpi since I haven't had any luck with Linux and that opens up a whole new area in which I have no expertise. I actually started out the asc project with Rpi in mind but just couldn't get it all to work together. The Windows 10 PC and AllSkEye software are working great I just need to solve the distance issue! 

Hi Julian
Can you direct me somewhere where I can get an idea how to use Raspberry Pi for just one camera?

I need to extend a USB 3 astro camera and I do not have Ethernet near, just Wi-Fi if needed - to connect to it from my pc.
I have a 5m extension which is very good and works with anything but this camera - it does not even connect.
I have not yet tried a 3m extension [running over my head!] yet.

I have an old Raspberry Pi Model B+ V1.2 [2014] which I think I did use as a Kodi receiver for a short time.
I know it works fine and i also have a USB keyboard and mouse and a joypad type of keyboard - that works too or used to, but I might have to also have to buy a VERY cheap a screen just to help.

I am getting older and comfort is imperative now and for the future!
Thanks in advance

[Dr_Ju_ju]

As you have the Pi (not sure if its powerful enough, due to its age, but as it also doesn't have a USB3 port....), but the simplest solution would be to install Indi\Kstars etc. onto it, have a look at Home (indilib.org)  

[astrorg]

Just now, Dr_Ju_ju said:

As you have the Pi (not sure if its powerful enough, due to its age, but as it also doesn't have a USB3 port....), but the simplest solution would be to install Indi\Kstars etc. onto it, have a look at Home (indilib.org)  

Yep, that was my thought too.
mmm

[pete_l]

Quote

if the unit was atop my chimney

I would advise against locating it somewhere that cannot easily be reached. If for no other reason than birds perching on/near it could require regular cleaning of the dome  😆

Whereever it ends up, my suggestion for a "tidy" solution would be a single board computer and Powe over Ethernet. Just one cable required. No need for flaky "PI" wifi. And no long USB cable runs, either.

Edited March 6, 2021 by pete_l

[JSeaman]

I have used a couple of types of Ethernet extenders and they were both superb, highly recommended and gets rid of all the USB issues

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Extender-165ft-4-Port-Ethernet-Cat5e/dp/B07VN3FBW3/ref=sr_1_1_sspa?dchild=1&keywords=usb+3+ethernet+extender&qid=1615048646&sr=8-1-spons&psc=1&spLa=ZW5jcnlwdGVkUXVhbGlmaWVyPUEzN0MyV1g3VUpPWDQ3JmVuY3J5cHRlZElkPUEwMDU3MTE0M1VDMjI1Ukk0S1pXOCZlbmNyeXB0ZWRBZElkPUEwOTY0NTYzMzQ2WTlUREFVUEU5ViZ3aWRnZXROYW1lPXNwX2F0ZiZhY3Rpb249Y2xpY2tSZWRpcmVjdCZkb05vdExvZ0NsaWNrPXRydWU=